Personality Disorders

[OneChristianOne]

Didn't know where to post this as there isn't a topic entitled "Personality Disorders."

How can a person be saved when they have no character to begin with, ie., psychopaths and or sociopaths? They won't or can't repent. They're pathological liars. They go through the motions, say they're saved, but there's no evidence of the subsequent fruits, just a continuation of destructive ones. They're consumed with themselves and always blaming others for their problems. They don't hear anyone speaking with them because they're consumed with their own thoughts, usually thinking about how to defend themselves, sometimes even when there's no need to. Their lives show a path of irresponsibility and destruction. They can't substantiate what they say.

Any thoughts on the above would be appreciated. The person I'm thinking about is 65 years old and it seems like his family of origin are all affected one way or the other.

 

[madison1101]

Psychopathology and Sociopathology are entirely different from Personality Disorders. What are you trying to find out? Can a psychopath receive salvation? Yes. Can a sociopath receive salvation? Yes. Will there be fruit? That depends.

As for personality disorders, they are different than the previous diagnoses. Personality disorders are behavioral and thinking patterns that are maladaptive and used to cope with difficult childhood events or traumas. They manifest themselves in adulthood as self-defeating behaviors and thinking.

Hope this makes sense.

Trish

 

[ExtremeDays]

Didn't know where to post this as there isn't a topic entitled "Personality Disorders."

How can a person be saved when they have no character to begin with, ie., psychopaths and or sociopaths? They won't or can't repent. They're pathological liars. They go through the motions, say they're saved, but there's no evidence of the subsequent fruits, just a continuation of destructive ones. They're consumed with themselves and always blaming others for their problems. They don't hear anyone speaking with them because they're consumed with their own thoughts, usually thinking about how to defend themselves, sometimes even when there's no need to. Their lives show a path of irresponsibility and destruction. They can't substantiate what they say.

Any thoughts on the above would be appreciated. The person I'm thinking about is 65 years old and it seems like his family of origin are all affected one way or the other.

First, I agree there should be a general "Personality Disorders" board to cover all the other ones such as ASP, NPD, etc..
Which also be good for all those who are connected to those who have such problems to come and share their experiences and prayers requests etc.


...Anyway, a person who used to have ASPD (and previous conduct disorder)...


1. We're all former sinners anyway, I think ASPD is just a specific pattern of sin, one that is heavy on the disregard for others. Remember too, the standard Jesus set- "if your even look on a woman with lust" and that hatred is the same as murder. Plenty of people have a lot of evil going on in their minds but haven't acted it out. Who knows, maybe they would if they weren't scared of getting caught. Those with ASPD aren't usually scared of getting caught.


2."They won't or can't repent" Well no one really can, unless God's Spirit moves on their hearts. We can't write any sinner off(even someone like Osama) unless they are dead. For God nothing is impossible.


3. You have the right description of the disorder but if God has led them to being born again, there will be fruit. Yes there are con people who will continue to be con people but they aren't all the ones who used to be those types.


4. I have been saved almost 20 years now. God has delivered me from the ASPD traits or turned personality traits from bad use to good- such as: risk taking to faith
and planning bad things to planning things that would help people. Now, most people think I grew up in church or something. There are many former criminals (a large percentage of who have ASPD) who have been saved. Have you heard of Chuck Colson? I suggest you look into Victory Outreach Ministries they have churches and recovery homes all over the US and other countries. They came out of Nicky Cruz ministries (the criminal who got saved in the movie "The Cross And The Switchblade").There is also David Wilkerson's ministries such as Teen Challenge (which, I think, has better recovery success rates than secular programs for teens with addictions). Also the "Dream Center" in California, they work with all types from off the streets.


True, without God, therapy, meds don't do much for those with ASPD.Once God really gets a hold of someone however, their lives can really turn around. There are thousands if not millions of testimonies out there of former criminals, drug addicts/alcoholics, street people, gang bangers etc. who have been saved and their lives, years later prove it.

 

[OneChristianOne]

Not all diagnosed with ASPD are psychopaths or sociopaths.

The bible says we can entertain angels unaware. I also think we can entertain demons/devils unaware. It's just my opinion, but I do believe there are evil people (psychopaths) in this world that really aren't human. Yes, they appear human, but there's something not quite human about them. I've never heard of anyone diagnosed as psychopathic/sociopath who was ever transformed. I suspect you were neither of these, even though you had the ASPD diagnosis. If one doesn't have character, one doesn't even think about it, so no need to change.

Hare's book (forget the title) talks about psychopathy as well as ASPD. They can be 2 separate issues, but closely related. Many p's keep short of breaking the law because they fear the punishment.

Well, sorry for the rant. I just don't see how a psycho/socio can ever be saved when they're too filled with themselves to allow anyone else in. How can someone say they believe in God and habitually abuse others? This particular male I'm speaking of is a very vindictive person. He was also diagnosed as hating women and they *are* a target of his anger!

 

[OneChristianOne]

Psychopathology and Sociopathology are entirely different from Personality Disorders. What are you trying to find out? Can a psychopath receive salvation? Yes. Can a sociopath receive salvation? Yes. Will there be fruit? That depends.

As for personality disorders, they are different than the previous diagnoses. Personality disorders are behavioral and thinking patterns that are maladaptive and used to cope with difficult childhood events or traumas. They manifest themselves in adulthood as self-defeating behaviors and thinking.

Hope this makes sense.

Trish

Madison,

Indeed, being diagnosed with psychopathy *is* a personality disorder. It isn't a mental illness. Neither therapy or meds work for psychopaths/sociopaths. In a way it's similar to those diagnosed with pedophilia..........there's no known cure.

 

[OneChristianOne]

First, I agree there should be a general "Personality Disorders" board to cover all the other ones such as ASP, NPD, etc..
Which also be good for all those who are connected to those who have such problems to come and share their experiences and prayers requests etc.


...Anyway, a person who used to have ASPD (and previous conduct disorder)...


1. We're all former sinners anyway, I think ASPD is just a specific pattern of sin, one that is heavy on the disregard for others. Remember too, the standard Jesus set- "if your even look on a woman with lust" and that hatred is the same as murder. Plenty of people have a lot of evil going on in their minds but haven't acted it out. Who knows, maybe they would if they weren't scared of getting caught. Those with ASPD aren't usually scared of getting caught.


2."They won't or can't repent" Well no one really can, unless God's Spirit moves on their hearts. We can't write any sinner off(even someone like Osama) unless they are dead. For God nothing is impossible.


3. You have the right description of the disorder but if God has led them to being born again, there will be fruit. Yes there are con people who will continue to be con people but they aren't all the ones who used to be those types.


4. I have been saved almost 20 years now. God has delivered me from the ASPD traits or turned personality traits from bad use to good- such as: risk taking to faith
and planning bad things to planning things that would help people. Now, most people think I grew up in church or something. There are many former criminals (a large percentage of who have ASPD) who have been saved. Have you heard of Chuck Colson? I suggest you look into Victory Outreach Ministries they have churches and recovery homes all over the US and other countries. They came out of Nicky Cruz ministries (the criminal who got saved in the movie "The Cross And The Switchblade").There is also David Wilkerson's ministries such as Teen Challenge (which, I think, has better recovery success rates than secular programs for teens with addictions). Also the "Dream Center" in California, they work with all types from off the streets.


True, without God, therapy, meds don't do much for those with ASPD.Once God really gets a hold of someone however, their lives can really turn around. There are thousands if not millions of testimonies out there of former criminals, drug addicts/alcoholics, street people, gang bangers etc. who have been saved and their lives, years later prove it.

Doesn't the bible say that God wishes all to be saved? Remember reading that but can't remember the book or chapter. Sorry. Well, anyway, I would think that God is moving in all our lives all the time. It's just that some are too disordered to hear Him. Obviously, some do respond, but then there are others who never do. I'm being distracted too many times tonight while trying to post. Sorry. Maybe I'll do better tomorrow. God Bless!

 

[madison1101]

Madison,

Indeed, being diagnosed with psychopathy *is* a personality disorder. It isn't a mental illness. Neither therapy or meds work for psychopaths/sociopaths. In a way it's similar to those diagnosed with pedophilia..........there's no known cure.

Well, in the DSM-IV, there is a list of Personality Disorders on the Axis II. None of them are Psychopathy. I don't know what book you studied from.

I agree there is little hope for either. I just won't rule out God's saving grace.

 

[OneChristianOne]

Well, in the DSM-IV, there is a list of Personality Disorders on the Axis II. None of them are Psychopathy. I don't know what book you studied from.

I agree there is little hope for either. I just won't rule out God's saving grace.

Psychopathy isn't listed in the index either. It's listed under ASPD in the DSM 4. If you have a therapist, you can also ask him/her about P or S being a personality disorder.

 

[madison1101]

Psychopathy isn't listed in the index either. It's listed under ASPD in the DSM 4. If you have a therapist, you can also ask him/her about P or S being a personality disorder.

I am a therapist. I studied the DSM-IV in grad school, and know that it is not a personality disorder. Psychopathy and Sociopathology are symptoms of personality disorders.

 

[ExtremeDays]

Not all diagnosed with ASPD are psychopaths or sociopaths.

The bible says we can entertain angels unaware. I also think we can entertain demons/devils unaware. It's just my opinion, but I do believe there are evil people (psychopaths) in this world that really aren't human. Yes, they appear human, but there's something not quite human about them. I've never heard of anyone diagnosed as psychopathic/sociopath who was ever transformed. I suspect you were neither of these, even though you had the ASPD diagnosis. If one doesn't have character, one doesn't even think about it, so no need to change.

Hare's book (forget the title) talks about psychopathy as well as ASPD. They can be 2 separate issues, but closely related. Many p's keep short of breaking the law because they fear the punishment.

Well, sorry for the rant. I just don't see how a psycho/socio can ever be saved when they're too filled with themselves to allow anyone else in. How can someone say they believe in God and habitually abuse others? This particular male I'm speaking of is a very vindictive person. He was also diagnosed as hating women and they *are* a target of his anger!

I do agree that some people can seem not human, but the Bible talks about demon possession. I think that fits when someone is filled with unbelievable evil. That person gets submerged behind the evil spirit(s), so you don't see something human and in the "normal" range.

In trying to refresh my memory of the differences (I am not a therapist but have taken many classes in psychology) I found this website which I think is very detailed in explaining the differences between the 3 categories:
http://faculty.ncwc.edu/toconnor/428/428lect16.htm

It seems what madison was saying is true, Sociopath and Psychopath are two different subgroups under APD.

It is possible that I was in the subgroup of a sociopath, common type (but as far as know these subgroups weren't listed when I was diagnosed). I wouldn't have fit psychopath however since I wasn't grandiose or sadistic. And just in case the thought comes up, I got saved not long after I was diagnosed, so I didn't just grow older and wind out of it.

If this website is accurate (it seems to be a college professors official class site),then a lot of the people I previously described were sociopaths and some psychopaths. I most people would think of only someone like Ted Bundy or the BTK killer as being a psychopath, like only serial killers are psychopaths. Yet many gang bangers and high level drug dealers fit this description. If you have seen the movie "Cross and the Switchblade" this is a biography of Nicky Cruz's life. He certainly matches this description. He got saved when he was young (after killing many people) and since then he has been helping gang members and teens get saved and get their lives right. I also have his testimony on tape from when he shared at a church.

Again, I mentioned Victory Outreach ministries, they have countless former criminals (not just "low level") I mean as in former killers and organized crime. These born again people are now in leadership positions, living responsible lives, helping others and contributing to society.

Anyway, the above website also mentions how many rogue police, military and others in a position of power are sociopaths. So then, there are many more sociopaths out there than we might imagine.

Even if were are talking about the most wicked personalities there are reports of high profile murderers such as Karla Faye Tucker, Son Of Sam, Mark Sellars (who murdered his parents) and others, who have professed being born again. Since they are in jail or executed we may never see if there was real fruit or not. According to God's Word nothing is impossible with God. Remember the thief on the cross, which shows last minute conversions of criminals are possible.


On another note, it seems you have some issues with this person that you refer to, and I'm sure, rightly so. I have had a horrible time with various people in my life who seem to have NPD (narcissistic personality disorder) and it is harder for me to be as merciful with that disorder. I have to remember not to let my experiences cloud my perspectives. If I were writing here about NPD instead of APD I might be a bit more pessimistic

 

[OneChristianOne]

I am a therapist. I studied the DSM-IV in grad school, and know that it is not a personality disorder. Psychopathy and Sociopathology are symptoms of personality disorders.

OK, if S & P are symptoms of a personality disorder, then the S or P has some type of a personality disorder. It could be borderline, narcissistic, etc. Is this correct? Enlighten me................thanks.

 

[OneChristianOne]

Do you know if there's any way to change the time to reflect the zone I'm in? It's a little confusing the way it's set up. Well, I mean confusing to me. Thanks.

 

[OneChristianOne]

I do agree that some people can seem not human, but the Bible talks about demon possession. I think that fits when someone is filled with unbelievable evil. That person gets submerged behind the evil spirit(s), so you don't see something human and in the "normal" range.

In trying to refresh my memory of the differences (I am not a therapist but have taken many classes in psychology) I found this website which I think is very detailed in explaining the differences between the 3 categories:
http://faculty.ncwc.edu/toconnor/428/428lect16.htm

It seems what madison was saying is true, Sociopath and Psychopath are two different subgroups under APD.

It is possible that I was in the subgroup of a sociopath, common type or dyssocial type (but as far as know these subgroups weren't listed when I was diagnosed). I wouldn't have fit psychopath however since I wasn't grandiose or sadistic. And just in case the thought comes up, I got saved not long after I was diagnosed, so I didn't just grow older and wind out of it.

If this website is accurate (it seems to be a college professors official class site),then a lot of the people I previously described were sociopaths and some psychopaths. I most people would think of only someone like Ted Bundy or the BTK killer as being a psychopath, like only serial killers are psychopaths. Yet many gang bangers and high level drug dealers fit this description. If you have seen the movie "Cross and the Switchblade" this is a biography of Nicky Cruz's life. He certainly matches this description. He got saved when he was young (after killing many people) and since then he has been helping gang members and teens get saved and get their lives right. I also have his testimony on tape from when he shared at a church.

Again, I mentioned Victory Outreach ministries, they have countless former criminals (not just "low level") I mean as in former killers and organized crime. These born again people are now in leadership positions, living responsible lives, helping others and contributing to society.

Anyway, the above website also mentions how many rogue police, military and others in a position of power are sociopaths. So then, there are many more sociopaths out there than we might imagine.

Even if were are talking about the most wicked personalities there are reports of high profile murderers such as Karla Faye Tucker, Son Of Sam, Mark Sellars (who murdered his parents) and others, who have professed being born again. Since they are in jail or executed we may never see if there was real fruit or not. According to God's Word nothing is impossible with God. Remember the thief on the cross, which shows last minute conversions of criminals are possible.


On another note, it seems you have some issues with this person that you refer to, and I'm sure, rightly so. I have had a horrible time with various people in my life who seem to have NPD (narcissistic personality disorder) and it is harder for me to be as merciful with that disorder. I have to remember not to let my experiences cloud my perspectives. If I were writing here about NPD instead of APD I might be a bit more pessimistic

Thanks for the link. I vaguely remember reading that before. Don't know where, maybe in Hare's book, "Without Conscience." Aha, I remembered the title this time.

I've seen Nicky Cruz on TBN................probably many times. Haven't watched anything on TBN lately, though.

This p, or maybe he's an s, doesn't seem to care anything at all about his salvation. Makes no effort to change. Seems to thrive on hurting others emotionally. He's extremely passive-aggressive. Readily admits he hasn't the slightest idea what remorse is. Doesn't seem to care, either. The Bible says that you will know them by their fruits, so, to me that means Christians are different, or should be different, that is. Nothing is impossible with God, I know, but many people die unsaved. I don't think it's God. It's us, or maybe I should say, some of us. A person has to realize they've sinned and that it's wrong in the first place. They can go through the motion, but that's meaningless. It's just my personal opinion, but it doesn't appear to me that some people can be saved. I think part of their soul is missing. Scary, too!

Gee, you've mentioned so many things I'd like to respond to but it's late and I'd be here all night talking to ya. Yes, I do realize the p's and s's among us aren't necessarily serial killers..............they can be your friendly neighbor next door.

Wishing you a blessed day whenever you read this.

Later................

 

[madison1101]

OK, if S & P are symptoms of a personality disorder, then the S or P has some type of a personality disorder. It could be borderline, narcissistic, etc. Is this correct? Enlighten me................thanks.

Most likely the psychopath or sociopath suffer from antisocial personality disorder, but not always. Psychopathology and sociopathology are labels for behavior that is out of the norm and antisocial. People with borderline personalities and narcissitic personalities can display those behaviors, but not to the extreme as someone with antisocial personality.

 

[ExtremeDays]

This p, or maybe he's an s, doesn't seem to care anything at all about his salvation. Makes no effort to change. Seems to thrive on hurting others emotionally. He's extremely passive-aggressive. Readily admits he hasn't the slightest idea what remorse is. Doesn't seem to care, either. The Bible says that you will know them by their fruits, so, to me that means Christians are different, or should be different, that is. Nothing is impossible with God, I know, but many people die unsaved. I don't think it's God. It's us, or maybe I should say, some of us. A person has to realize they've sinned and that it's wrong in the first place. They can go through the motion, but that's meaningless. It's just my personal opinion, but it doesn't appear to me that some people can be saved. I think part of their soul is missing. Scary, too!

I agree with you about the fruit, and if you are close to them I'm sure you can tell if there is fruit or not.
"God is not willing any should perish"...it's our choice.
I believe it's a choice though, not an automatic death sentence. We can judge if someone has evil in them but we just can't judge if they will repent and recieve Christ before they die.Who knows? Unfortunately, I know some "good" and nice people who haven't given their lives to Jesus yet and if they die today they are going to the same Hell as the ones who seem so evil.