Personality Cults

[Jim B]

Do you think there is too great a tendency among Charismatic Christians to create personality cults around fascinating personalities (televangelists, magnetic preachers, etc.)

I used to subscribe to Charisma Magazine but dropped my subscription when I could get no response from them about why they would print, on the one hand, balanced articles facing some of the issues in charismatic churches (such as personality cults and one article I really liked decrying the tendency of ministers to adopt self-aggrandizing titles – Reverend, Doctor, Reverend Doctor, Bishop, Apostle, First Lady, etc.) then at the same time run those cheesy conference ads with twenty-five thumbnail photos of the same highly visible ministers participating in rotation at yet another convention and using those same exaggerated titles. To me it was two-faced, bitter and sweet water coming from the same fountain. So, I just dropped my subscription.

I know this problem is not unique to Charismatics. The tendency to idolize magnetic personalities seems to be general, crossing denomination lines, and was even common in the Bible – Apollos, Paul, Peter, etc., all had their own followers and devotees.

But, is this healthy?

Have you ever been disappointed by an idol with clay feet, a spiritual hero that has fallen?

What does the Bible say about this subject?

Jim
\o/

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Do you think there is too great a tendency among Charismatic Christians to create personality cults around fascinating personalities (televangelists, magnetic preachers, etc.)

I used to subscribe to Charisma Magazine but dropped my subscription when I could get not response from them about why they would print on the one hand, balanced articles facing some of the issues in charismatic churches (such as personality cults and one article I really liked decrying the tendency of ministers to adopt self-aggrandizing titles – Reverend, Doctor, Reverend Doctor, Bishop, Apostle, First Lady, etc.) then at the same time run those cheesy conference ads with twenty-five thumbnail photos of the same highly visible ministers participating in yet another convention and using those same exaggerated titles. To me it was two faced, bitter and sweet water coming from the same fountain. So, I just dropped my subscription.

I know this problem is not unique to Charismatics. The tendency to idolize magnetic personalities seems to be general, crossing denomination lines, and was even common in the Bible – Apollos, Paul, Peter, etc., all had their own followers and devotees.

But, is this healthy?

Have you ever been disappointed by an idol with clay feet, a spiritual hero that has fallen?

What does the Bible say about this subject?

Jim
\o/

I agree. I have quit watching TV ministers and have not read any Christian books by the "popular" authors for a couple years because they seem to be just so much fluff. Christian music on the pop stations are hard to listen to also.
But maybe we are guilty of expecting too much from people. If they want to make a splash, they have to dive into the only water there is... TV, radio, books, music, etc etc.
I just think much of "pop" Christianity has been overly colored by our culture... which loves to set up leaders and then shoot them down. Give them what they want and then hate them for doing it.
So I guess it works both way bro... if these folks get set up as leaders, it is only because there are so many out here who are ready and willing to swim in the shallow water.
Many of those titles like "Dr." so and so were not earned rather were honorary. I was glad to see Fred Price drop his "Dr." title.
Unfortunately, the only real cure for this sort of thing is a good dose of persecution.

 

[Svt4Him]

I agree. I have quit watching TV ministers and have not read any Christian books by the "popular" authors for a couple years because they seem to be just so much fluff. Christian music on the pop stations are hard to listen to also.
But maybe we are guilty of expecting too much from people. If they want to make a splash, they have to dive into the only water there is... TV, radio, books, music, etc etc.
I just think much of "pop" Christianity has been overly colored by our culture... which loves to set up leaders and then shoot them down. Give them what they want and then hate them for doing it.
So I guess it works both way bro... if these folks get set up as leaders, it is only because there are so many out here who are ready and willing to swim in the shallow water.
Many of those titles like "Dr." so and so were not earned rather were honorary. I was glad to see Fred Price drop his "Dr." title.
Unfortunately, the only real cure for this sort of thing is a good dose of persecution.

You sound like a true old person. I can go and find every generation of old people who said the same thing about the music you like. It's like being in church when they sing hymns, you can't crank it loud enough, but add a drum, and the older people all plug their ears and say it's a compromise.

And I would never wish persecution on anyone. I would rather hope God would show them.

As for the OP, when was the last time you actually prayed for one of these 'fallen' brothers or sisters, or do you actually not think they are brothers and sisters in the faith?

I was actually subscribed to Charisma until I saw an ad for it at 1/4 of the price I was paying. I'll go look again and see if I can get it cheap here.

As for what the Bible says about it, what comes to my mind is:

For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith. 4For as we have many members in one body, but all the members do not have the same function, 5so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us

 

[Jim B]

As for the OP, when was the last time you actually prayed for one of these 'fallen' brothers or sisters, or do you actually not think they are brothers and sisters in the faith?

How can I judge them, Svt. The only thing I can say is that I believe they are misguided and sometimes blind leaders of the blind, but as to their relationship with the Lord, I cannot say. And how do you know I haven't prayed for them? Actually, though, the truth is, I don’t pray for them that often. Thanks for the reminder.

And as to your post that said to Didy:

You sound like a true old person. I can go and find every generation of old people who said the same thing about the music you like.

Svt, I am truly offended. I am 61 years old and prefer rock and roll to any other form of music. I especially like some of the creative styles in alternative music (Caedmons Call, Jars, Plumb), emo (Eisley), and rapecore (POD). I may be old but I ain’t dead yet. And, to quote Larry Norman, Why should the devil have all the good music?

Jim
\o/

 

[Svt4Him]

How can I judge them, Svt. The only thing I can say is that I believe they are misguided and sometimes blind leaders of the blind, but as to their relationship with the Lord, I cannot say. And how do you know I haven't prayed for them? Actually, though, the truth is, I don’t pray for them that often. Thanks for the reminder.

And as to your post that said to Didy:

Svt, I am truly offended. I am 61 years old and prefer rock and roll to any other form of music. I especially like some of the creative styles in alternative music (Caedmons Call, Jars, Plumb), emo (Eisley), and rapecore (POD). I may be old but I ain’t dead yet. And, to quote Larry Norman, Why should the devil have all the good music?

Jim
\o/

No, sorry Jim, wasn't for you regarding the music/old person. I am not young, I'm not old. I realize I like a certain type of music, but that says more about me than the culture. If I ever start saying the Christian music on the radio is no longer listenable, I will realize I have become my grandpa. Anyone who says Christian music of today is bad is old. You haven't said it, so it doesn't apply. But even liking rock and roll doesn't not make one old, it's when one believes that anyone who doesn't like that type of music is somehow missing something (which they probably are ) or somehow not on the same level with God as someone who listens to music that can only be played on a church organ.

Here's where my issue is, and I hope you catch my heart. I see people who preach, but have a bit of wacked out doctrine. They reach thousands and thousands of people, but I can only see the wacked out doctrine. Now the devil will want to take these people out as the word of God is being preached, albeit with a bit of wacked doctrine. So instead of getting non-Christians attacking them, Christians start picking on the wacked doctrine and shooting the Christians. Would I wish they didn't have this doctrine? Sure. But would I rather they have my doctrine, and reach the same amount of people as I reach, or stay as they are, preach the word, and reach many more? And if one sinner repents, would I complain about the doctrine, or rejoice with all the angels in heaven? If they are Christians, it is God's job to change them, not me, if they need to be changed. I tried to do God's job with my wife, and it almost destroyed us. Then God told me it was my job to love her just the way she was, let Him worry about the issues that were bigger than me. Not only that, but God told me to desire to change myself. That's a relief.

So I say all that to say I don't like wacked doctrine or teaching. I don't like some styles of some preachers. But I rejoice the word of God is going out. If someone is preaching that all can get to heaven without God, stand and shout. But if they believe Jesus is Lord, and He is the only way to heaven, I don't really mind if they believe in original sin or not, pre-mid-post trib, or baptism for babies.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I grew up during the 60s. I was in a rock band for a number of years!
I saw the WHO live in 72!

WHO YOU CALLING AN "OLD PERSON"??? :o

I was in Jesus movement!
I saw "Jesus Christ Superstar" performed live at triangle park in Pittsburg in 1971!
After I go saved I played in a Jesus rock band and my favorite groups were:
Love Song
Children of the Day
2nd Chapter of Acts
Larry Norman

all 'round!!!


(((Actually, Christian music today is much tamer than it was in my day. )))

 

[Jim B]

What a wonderful response, Svt4Him, I agree totally. My focus, as I should see it,is doing the best job I can do doctrinally to offset these wacky doctrines w/o aiming at the persons preaching them and hope that is sufficient. They say that people trained in spotting conterfeit money are trained to recognize the genuine by knowing it when they see it. Then, spotting the counterfeit comes naturally. The same holds true for doctrine, IMO. Thanks for helping me refocus on what is genuine.

Jm
\o/

 

[Jim B]

Didy wrote:

I grew up during the 60s. I was in a rock band for a number of years!
I saw the WHO live in 72!

WHO YOU CALLING AN "OLD PERSON"???

I was in Jesus movement!
I saw "Jesus Christ Superstar" performed live at triangle park in Pittsburg in 1971!
After I go saved I played in a Jesus rock band and my favorite groups were:
Love Song
Children of the Day
2nd Chapter of Acts
Larry Norman

all 'round!!!

Wow, Didy. We have travelled the same road.

 

[Svt4Him]

I grew up during the 60s. I was in a rock band for a number of years!
I saw the WHO live in 72!

WHO YOU CALLING AN "OLD PERSON"??? :o

I was in Jesus movement!
I saw "Jesus Christ Superstar" performed live at triangle park in Pittsburg in 1971!
After I go saved I played in a Jesus rock band and my favorite groups were:
Love Song
Children of the Day
2nd Chapter of Acts
Larry Norman

all 'round!!!


(((Actually, Christian music today is much tamer than it was in my day. )))

No, you're missing my point. We can compare rock till we're blue in the face. Personally I liked Meatloaf, although when I saw him in concert, he ruined one of my favorite songs by swearing in it. I also liked Pink Floyd, as well as Supertramp. My comment was because of "I have quit watching TV ministers and have not read any Christian books by the "popular" authors for a couple years because they seem to be just so much fluff. Christian music on the pop stations are hard to listen to also."

But I shouldn't have said you sound old, and I'm sorry if it was offensive.

Oh, I should also add that I like a lot of 'pop-Christian' music, as well as Keith Green.

 

[Jim B]

Back to the OP …

Do you think there is too great a tendency among Charismatic Christians to create personality cults around fascinating personalities (televangelists, magnetic preachers, etc.)

I used to subscribe to Charisma Magazine but dropped my subscription when I could get no response from them about why they would print, on the one hand, balanced articles facing some of the issues in charismatic churches (such as personality cults and one article I really liked decrying the tendency of ministers to adopt self-aggrandizing titles – Reverend, Doctor, Reverend Doctor, Bishop, Apostle, First Lady, etc.) then at the same time run those cheesy conference ads with twenty-five thumbnail photos of the same highly visible ministers participating in rotation at yet another convention and using those same exaggerated titles. To me it was two-faced, bitter and sweet water coming from the same fountain. So, I just dropped my subscription.

I know this problem is not unique to Charismatics. The tendency to idolize magnetic personalities seems to be general, crossing denomination lines, and was even common in the Bible – Apollos, Paul, Peter, etc., all had their own followers and devotees.

But, is this healthy?

Have you ever been disappointed by an idol with clay feet, a spiritual hero that has fallen?

What does the Bible say about this subject?

 

[SavedByGrace3]

But I shouldn't have said you sound old, and I'm sorry if it was offensive.

Oh, I should also add that I like a lot of 'pop-Christian' music, as well as Keith Green.

Great... no offense was taken... I was just kidding.
Peace

 

[LynneClomina]

about the OP...

i think any leader is going to get shot at, and is maybe more vulnerable than "regular" folk to fall into sin, or become deceived by a false doctrine. when i see a popular christian leader, i look carefully at their teaching as well as for evidence of a teachable heart. i think the onus is less so on the leaders, and more so on the followers, not to make idols out of them....but the leader is responsible for being totally accountable to somebody.

um, i may have gone a bit off topic here, if i did i apologize. i just dont worry so much about all of them, i worry more about my own heart and what i am doing with what i am seeing, and try to help others do the same. if we all did that, then hardly any body would idolize a leader, and get all crazy whatever's hot. the change is not so much in those leaders, its more in the hearts of the people, i guess.

just my thoughts.

Lynne

 

[Freak4LifeDrew]

Hmm,guess it's time for the younger generation to weigh in.

But, is this healthy?

I dunno,probably not,I believe the Bible clearly states the only individual worthy of adoration it Jesus Christ.I also suppose it depends on what you mean by idolize.I've been to Benny Hinn conventions.Now I don't know if he's a fake or not,but God was there.I know God's presence and it was there.It's also my opinion that he makes it clear to people there that it's about God not him.Perhaps some individuals are only guilty of the same thing Paul and Appollos were,being strong men of God that people unfourtunately idolized.Of course my experience with that sort of thing is limited.

Have you ever been disappointed by an idol with clay feet, a spiritual hero that has fallen?

Oh yea.At 15 your pretty impressionable,as I'm sure you guys remember,and it came close to shattering my faith.But in the end it made me realize that the only person who is dependable is Christ.

What does the Bible say about this subject?

Ah,here's is where we look to the only opinion that really matters,God's.The one verse that comes to mind when this kind of thing comes up (and it does often,I live in a Bible belt town that is dominated by conservative churches who don't really approve of Benny and his buds) is Phillipians 1:15-18

15It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. 16The latter do so in love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. 17The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains.[3] 18But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.


Regardless the preach the gospel,and in the end people are saved.That's what is truly important IMHO.