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Perpetual virginity (not a hate thread)

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prodromos

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Does the explicit koine Greek GRAMMAR there MANDATE as the only grammatical possibility that Mary would be a virgin perpetually, as is the point of my good friend with whom I'm trying to have a discussion?
That isn't what Thekla claimed, that is what you (erroneously) claim her point is. Since you have repeatedly misrepresented what she has posted, without retraction or sincere apology, I have no desire to respond to any of your requests for the time being. If you drop the hubris and approach the discussion honestly, I may reconsider.

John
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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If you drop the hubris and approach the discussion honestly, I may reconsider.

John


It is.

The point was made that Luke 1:34 confirms the dogma of the PERPETUALITY of Her virginity. Thekla's whole point is that it DOES - the GRAMMAR of koine Greek so declares. The sole topic of our discussion was the PERPETUALITY of Mary (the issue of this thread) and THAT is what she said the koine grammar of the text taught. I sincerely don't have a clue what she's claiming now.

But you are not her. So John, I'll ask YOU:
Reference Luke 1:34. Does the explicit koine Greek GRAMMAR there MANDATE as the only grammatical possibility that Mary would be a virgin perpetually, as is the point of my good friend with whom I'm trying to have a discussion? I'm not asking if that is your interpretation of the text or view of Mary, I'm only and exclusively asking if the explicit koine Greek GRAMMAR mandates that - and only that - view so that the ONLY grammatically possible translation of the text is: ".... I will PERPETUALLY never know a man?"

Depending upon your gracious reply, I may have a follow-up.



Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah



.
 
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Standing Up

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I posted this in response to a question in a similar thread. No one questioned it or otherwise responded and it is pertinent to the subject at hand.

My question again. Is there anyone who can provide examples of characters from scripture (Old Testament or New Testament), who once chosen for a higher purpose by God, ever returned to their former common lifestyle? I can't think of any, so it makes me wonder why so many people assume that Mary would do so.

John

Tons of examples. David (Bathsheba). Samson (Delila). Peter (get behind Me; vision of clean/unclean; confrontation w/ Paul). Timothy (was encouraged for strength). Jude to Christians (contend for the faith). Paul mentioned a couple of people who 'turned back'. The Christian guy in Corinthians w/ his mother. Five letters to Christians in Revelation.
 
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Philothei

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Ever-Virginity

One of the more puzzling traditions regarding the Theotokos for modern Christians is the teaching that she is Ever-Virgin, that is, that she remained a virgin before, during, and eternally after the birth of Jesus Christ.
That the Holy Virgin Mary is Ever-Virgin (Aeiparthenos) is not to elevate her to some special status or to incite us to worship the creature rather than the Creator. Rather, it is an affirmation of who Christ Jesus is. Because He has chosen her to be his mother, to conceive Him, to give flesh to Him, to give birth to Him, we understand her as a finite dwelling place of the infinite God. Thus, because she is in this sense this new Holy of Holies, her ever-virginity is a natural characteristic of such an awesome reality.
The whole tradition of the Orthodox Christian Church has always held her to be in truth Ever-Virgin,[3][4] knowing her personally from the beginning and then passing the truths on from one generation to the next, never expanding nor subtracting from what was known in the beginning. Except for a few instances here and there in history, never have Christians regarded her in any other fashion until relatively late in the Protestant traditions. There are many testimonies to her ever-virginity, so let's consider a few:
Testimony from Scripture

The principal understanding of the Virgin Mary as Ever-Virgin in Scripture is expressed in terms of her being a new Ark of the Covenant, a created thing which somehow contained the uncontainable God. The reason that St. Joseph the Betrothed (as tradition names him) did not enter into marital relations with her is that he understood her as one would understand the Ark, that she had been set aside for use by God, and that her womb had in some sense been made into a temple. The language used for the Virgin in the New Testament parallels that used for the Ark in the Old:
From a Roman Catholic source:[5]
For the first time God's presence has descended upon a person as the new ark of the Covenant. . . . Rene Laurentin speaks of the subtle use of ark imagery [early in Luke]. For instance, he shows how in II Samuel 6, there was a journey to the hill country of Judah that the ark of the covenant took. Likewise, the same phrase is used to describe Mary's journey to the hill country. . . . Both David and Mary "arose and made the journey." In II Samuel 6:2 and Luke 1:39. Laurent goes on to describe how when the Ark arrived and when Mary arrived, they were both greeted with "shouts of joy." And the word for shout or the word for Elizabeth's greeting, anafametezein, is very rare. It's only used in connection with the OT liturgical ceremonies that were centered around the Ark. It literally means to "cry aloud, to proclaim or intone." Elizabeth greets Mary the same way the Ark of the Covenant was greeted. The entrance of the Ark and the entrance of Mary are seen then as blessing an entire household. Like Obededom's household was blessed, so Elizabeth sees her household as blessed. Laurentin goes on to talk about how both David and Elizabeth react with awe. "How shall the Ark of the Lord come to me?" David says in II Samuel 6:9. And likewise Elizabeth says, "Why should the mother of the Lord come to me?" The Ark of the Covenant and the Mother of our Lord are in a sense two ways of looking at the same reality which is becoming clearer and more personal with Our Lady. Then finally, the Ark of the Covenant and Mary both remain in the respective houses for three months, II Samuel 6:11 and Luke 1:56. In Luke 1 and 2 we have the annunciation of Gabriel to Zachariah and six months later the annunciation by Gabriel to Mary, then nine months later Jesus is born, and thirty days later He is presented in the temple. You add up 180 days in the six months, 270 days in the nine months, and the 40 days in the presentation and it adds up to 490, which is a very rare number that is found in one of the most memorable prophecies in the OT, Daniel 9. . . . Luke is once again giving a surplus value, a surplus meaning to those who are really willing to dig deep into the text to see all of the inspired meanings behind what God has done to inaugurate the New Covenant salvation in Christ and in His Blessed Mother. This is the Ark of the Covenant. Now let's go back and conclude our time in Revelation 11 and 12. We have Mary the Ark of the Covenant. We have Mary the true tabernacle. We have in Mary a figure for the New Jerusalem because at the end of Revelation, how is the New Jerusalem described? As being a bride that is pure and yet also being a mother of God's children Well, how is it that you could be at the same time virginally pure and maternally fruitful? It seems impossible in human nature, but not for Mary, not only in mothering Jesus, but in John 19 at the cross and also in Revelation 12 where we read at the very end of the chapter, verse 17, we discover that Mary becomes by grace the mother of all God's children. How is it that our Lord would have brothers? Many look at the story of Ss. Mary and Joseph and see a young couple about to embark on their married life together, but Church tradition holds differently. St. Joseph was a much older man, a widower, and had children by his previous marriage, thus his sons were in some sense Christ's step-brothers, and their being older than Jesus can also account for some of the way he is treated by them as being the baby of the family, somewhat out of his mind. Joseph takes in Mary as something like his ward, because in leaving her life as a Temple virgin, she could not go out into the world alone (cf. Protevangelion of James). That is why Joseph, a righteous, respected man, was chosen to take her in. His being much older than she also accounts for the notion that they should have had relations—she had already dedicated herself to a life of virginity, whereas he was a much older man who had already had his children and whose wife had died. Another possible understanding is that these "brothers" of our Lord were his cousins—St. Jerome holds this view, that these were the children of St. Joseph's brother Cleopas, who had died and left his children and widow in Joseph's care, according to Jewish custom.
Additionally, both the Hebrew and Greek terms for "brother" are often used to refer to relatives who are not necessarily what we in English would term "brothers," i.e., perhaps a cousin or an uncle, or some other relative. For example, Abraham and Lot are called adelphoi in Gen. 14:14 in the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the OT used by the Apostles), though they are certainly not what we would call "brothers." Jacob and Laban are also called "brothers" (Gen. 29:15), though Laban would have been Jacob's uncle. In any event, the words do not mean the precise thing that the modern English "brother" does.
Beyond that, it is nowhere to be found in Scripture that any man other than the God-man Jesus Christ is called the child of Mary.
Some would cite the use of the "until" in Scripture ("...and he knew her not until (Greek eos) her having brought forth her firstborn son..." (Matthew 1:25; Luke 2:7)) to indicate that after she gave birth to the God-man, that St. Joseph then "knew" her maritally. Again, this is a translation problem.
From this webpage:
This verse seems to be often translated as "he knew her not until after..." This is not, however, what is meant. The Greek original, eos, indicates the true meaning, of "he had no sexual relations with her prior to her giving birth." The Evangelist makes this statement in order to assure us that Joseph had no part in the conception of Jesus. The term eos ou does not require the understanding that he had relations with her after Christ was born. It merely indicates that, as regards the birth of Jesus, Joseph had not had relations with Mary prior to the birth, thus, he was not the father of Jesus. This is merely a usual turn of phrase, the use of a standard and familiar form of expression. This same term and meaning is used elsewhere in the Bible as a standard expression, and it clearly does not indicate what the heterodox (non-Orthodox) claim it does. At 2 Samuel 6:23, for instance, we read, "And Milchal, the daughter of Saul, had no child until [eos] her death. Did she, then, have children after her death? Of course not!, and neither did Joseph "know" Mary after the birth of Jesus. At Genesis 8:7, we read that Noah "sent forth a raven; and it went forth and did not return till [eos] after the water had gone from off the face of the earth." We know from Scripture that in fact, the raven never returned to the ark. It says that it did not return "until after," but in fact, it never returned at all. The Scripture says that "Joseph knew her not till after...", but in fact, he never "knew" her at all. In another example, the Bible says, 'The Lord said to my Lord, 'Sit at my right hand until [eos] I make Thine enemies Thy footstool" (Mark 12:36). Does this mean that Christ will cease to sit at the right hand of the glory of the Father once His enemies have been overcome? Of course not! Hence, the Bible does not say that "Joseph knew her not until after she brought forth her first born, but then he did." The Bible says, "He did not know her before (up until) she had brought forth her firstborn," meaning simply and clearly, "Joseph was not the father. He had not come together with her before her pregnancy, thus he was not involved in the conception of Jesus." Another testimony from Scripture is that on the cross, our Lord gave his holy mother into the care of the Apostle John (John 19:26). This might seem a merely practical thing to do, but if we recall the Mosaic Law would have dictated that she be given into the care of other natural children, since her firstborn son was dying. Christ, who kept the Law perfectly, would not have violated it in any detail, and so when he gave his mother to the apostle to look after, he did so only because she had no other children who could take her in, St. Joseph having long since passed away.

Theotokos - OrthodoxWiki
 
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Philothei

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Theotokos - OrthodoxWiki


Testimony from the ancient Church

The Church continued to call the Theotokos the "Virgin" even after the time when she supposedly would have had other children, as some say. It would be a rather odd thing to keep calling a woman "the Virgin" and even "Ever-Virgin" when one was standing next to her other offspring in Church.
Additionally, throughout the earliest liturgies of the Church, she is continually called "Ever-Virgin." One can also find references to her ever-virginity in the Fathers' writings, such as in those of Peter of Alexandria, Epiphanius, Athanasius, Didymus the Blind, Jerome, Cyril of Alexandria, Leo, Sophronius of Jerusalem, John of Damascus, John Cassian, Ephrem of Syria, and the capitula of the II Council of Constantinople in 553 A.D. (In short, nearly everywhere.) One such example is in St. Ambrose of Milan (4th century): "The virgin did not seek the consolation of bearing another child" (See Letter 63; NPNF v. 10, p. 473). There are many other such quotations. Anyone familiar with the writings of the Church Fathers will see her being called "the Virgin" and "Ever-Virgin" frequently.
Hippolytus was a scholar, bishop, and martyr, who lived in or near Rome and wrote in Greek; he was martyred in A.D. 235. He is considered to be one of the most important witnesses as to how the early church worshipped.
This is a brief excerpt (ca. A.D. 210) regarding the Blessed Theotokos:
But the pious confession of the believer is that, with a view to our salvation, . . . the Creator of all things incorporated with Himself a rational soul and a sensible body from the all-holy Mary, ever-virgin, by an undefiled conception, without conversion, and was made man in nature, but separate from wickedness: the same was perfect God, and the same was perfect man; the same was in nature at once perfect God and man (Against Beron and Helix, Frag VIII). Notice that Hippolytus refers to Mary as all-holy, and ever-virgin. Since he does this in passing, we may be sure that he is introducing no new teaching about Mary, so that it was common to refer to Mary in these terms before Hippolytus wrote.
Thus, too, they preached of the advent of God in the flesh to the world, His advent by the spotless and God-bearing Mary in the way of birth and growth, and the manner of His life and conversation with men, ... (A Discourse on the End of the World). Here Hippolytus casually refers to Mary as spotless and God-bearing. I assume this latter term is the equivalent to Theotokos in the Greek, which means Bearer of God, commonly translated Mother of God (the Son). This title was that affirmed by the Council of Ephesus.
St. Ephrem (4th century):
Some dare to claim that Mary became fully Joseph's wife after the Savior's birth. How could she who was the dwelling-place of the Spirit, who was overshadowed by the divine power, ever become the wife of a mortal and bear children in pain, according to the ancient curse? It is through Mary, "blessed among women," that the curses uttered in the beginning have been removed according to which a child in such torments cannot be called blessed. Just as the Lord entered through all closed doors, so he came out if an original womb, for this virgin bore him truly and really without pain.citation needed The Second Council of Constantinople, 553, Capitula II:
If anyone shall not confess that the Word of God has two nativities, the one from all eternity of the Father, without time and without body; the other in these last days, coming down from heaven and being made flesh of the holy and glorious Mary, Mother of God and always a virgin, and born of her: let him be anathema.[6] The ancient Christian titles for Mary, Theotokos ("Birth-giver to God") and Meter Theou ("Mother of God"), are not to be understood in the sense that she somehow created God. Even mothers giving birth to exclusively human children do not create their children. Rather, these titles for the Virgin are an affirmation that the Christ contained in her womb is indeed God, the Theanthropos ("God-man"). She is not his origin nor the source of the Godhead, but she did quite literally give birth to God. If we affirm that Jesus Christ is God, then we must call her Theotokos, for she gave birth to God himself. Nestorius the heretic in the ancient Church refused to call her Theotokos, preferring instead Christotokos, because he could not understand the idea that a creature could give birth to the Creator, yet is this scandal not at the heart of the Incarnation? Nestorius's doctrines insisted on a separation between the divine Logos and the man Jesus, that somehow the Son of God had inhabited a man, not that God became man as the Christian faith has always held. Is the one who was in her womb God? Then we must call her Theotokos.
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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Ever-Virginity


The Orthodox Christian Church has always held her to be in truth Ever-Virgin
knowing her personally from the beginning and then passing the truths on from one generation to the next, never expanding nor subtracting from what was known in the beginning.



Ah. So like the CC, the EO also claims that this view has been taught "always" and "from the beginning." It seems to be the foundational apologetic for this dogma.

Okay, since this point is foundational, and since it seems stressed, of course it has all the documentation for this - that every generation of Christians has ALWAYS affirmed this FROM THE BEGINNING.

Now, I know there is some dispute of whether "the beginning" is the Annunciation (or even earlier) or Pentecost, but either way (or any point inbetween), could you please share the documentation for this apologetic? If you would, just like a few examples from each generation (ever 20 or 25 years or so) throughout the first century to begin with where it is clearly indicated here is a believe in the PERPETUAL virginity of Mary.

Thanks!! :)





.
 
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Philothei

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Sure if you find me copies of the first epistles been written since the "beginning" I shall be able to find you "written" martyria for the EV too you go first since the Bible is more fundamental to any Christian belief....................All texts that exissted surely do not go back to the orginal...but are copies.... so why asking for the impossible?
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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Testimony from Scripture
The principal understanding of the Virgin Mary as Ever-Virgin in Scripture is expressed in terms of her being a new Ark of the Covenant, a created thing which somehow contained the uncontainable God. The reason that St. Joseph the Betrothed (as tradition names him) did not enter into marital relations with her is that he understood her as one would understand the Ark, that she had been set aside for use by God, and that her womb had in some sense been made into a temple. The language used for the Virgin in the New Testament parallels that used for the Ark in the Old:
From a Roman Catholic source:[5]
For the first time God's presence has descended upon a person as the new ark of the Covenant. . . . Rene Laurentin speaks of the subtle use of ark imagery [early in Luke]. For instance, he shows how in II Samuel 6, there was a journey to the hill country of Judah that the ark of the covenant took. Likewise, the same phrase is used to describe Mary's journey to the hill country. . . . Both David and Mary "arose and made the journey." In II Samuel 6:2 and Luke 1:39. Laurent goes on to describe how when the Ark arrived and when Mary arrived, they were both greeted with "shouts of joy." And the word for shout or the word for Elizabeth's greeting, anafametezein, is very rare. It's only used in connection with the OT liturgical ceremonies that were centered around the Ark. It literally means to "cry aloud, to proclaim or intone." Elizabeth greets Mary the same way the Ark of the Covenant was greeted. The entrance of the Ark and the entrance of Mary are seen then as blessing an entire household. Like Obededom's household was blessed, so Elizabeth sees her household as blessed. Laurentin goes on to talk about how both David and Elizabeth react with awe. "How shall the Ark of the Lord come to me?" David says in II Samuel 6:9. And likewise Elizabeth says, "Why should the mother of the Lord come to me?" The Ark of the Covenant and the Mother of our Lord are in a sense two ways of looking at the same reality which is becoming clearer and more personal with Our Lady. Then finally, the Ark of the Covenant and Mary both remain in the respective houses for three months, II Samuel 6:11 and Luke 1:56.

Sorry, I don't see anything in these verses about Mary being a Perpetual Virgin....

I seems to ME there's rather a thought that some verses are symbolic and that such alludes to Our Lady's perpetual virginity. That's not a "testimony" of Scripture, that's an interpretation dependent upon the interpreter's view taht something is "implied." Apples and oranges, IMHO.




In Luke 1 and 2 we have the annunciation of Gabriel to Zachariah and six months later the annunciation by Gabriel to Mary, then nine months later Jesus is born, and thirty days later He is presented in the temple. You add up 180 days in the six months, 270 days in the nine months, and the 40 days in the presentation and it adds up to 490, which is a very rare number that is found in one of the most memorable prophecies in the OT, Daniel 9. . . . Luke is once again giving a surplus value, a surplus meaning to those who are really willing to dig deep into the text to see all of the inspired meanings behind what God has done to inaugurate the New Covenant salvation in Christ and in His Blessed Mother. This is the Ark of the Covenant. Now let's go back and conclude our time in Revelation 11 and 12. We have Mary the Ark of the Covenant. We have Mary the true tabernacle. We have in Mary a figure for the New Jerusalem because at the end of Revelation, how is the New Jerusalem described? As being a bride that is pure and yet also being a mother of God's children Well, how is it that you could be at the same time virginally pure and maternally fruitful? It seems impossible in human nature, but not for Mary, not only in mothering Jesus, but in John 19 at the cross and also in Revelation 12 where we read at the very end of the chapter, verse 17, we discover that Mary becomes by grace the mother of all God's children. How is it that our Lord would have brothers? Many look at the story of Ss.

What?????

And how does one asking an open ended question substantiate ANYTHING (other than anyone can ask anything)?




Mary and Joseph and see a young couple about to embark on their married life together, but Church tradition holds differently. St. Joseph was a much older man, a widower, and had children by his previous marriage, thus his sons were in some sense Christ's step-brothers, and their being older than Jesus can also account for some of the way he is treated by them as being the baby of the family, somewhat out of his mind. Joseph takes in Mary as something like his ward, because in leaving her life as a Temple virgin, she could not go out into the world alone (cf. Protevangelion of James). That is why Joseph, a righteous, respected man, was chosen to take her in. His being much older than she also accounts for the notion that they shouldJerome holds this view, that these were the children of St. Joseph's brother Cleopas, who had died and left his children and widow in Joseph's care, according to Jewish custom.
Additionally, both the Hebrew and Greek terms for "brother" are often used to refer to relatives who are not necessarily what we in English would term "brothers," i.e., perhaps a cousin or an uncle, or some other relative. For example, Abraham and Lot are called adelphoi in Gen. 14:14 in the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the OT used by the Apostles), though they are certainly not what we would call "brothers." Jacob and Laban are also called "brothers" (Gen. 29:15), though Laban would have been Jacob's uncle. In any event, the words do not mean the precise thing that the modern English "brother" does.
Beyond that, it is nowhere to be found in Scripture that any man other than the God-man Jesus Christ is called the child of Mary.
Some would cite the use of the "until" in Scripture ("...and he knew her not until (Greek eos) her having brought forth her firstborn son..."


None of this has anything whatsoever to do with the perpetual virginity of Mary or the topic of this thread.




This verse seems to be often translated as "he knew her not until after..." This is not, however, what is meant. The Greek original, eos, indicates the true meaning, of "he had no sexual relations with her prior to her giving birth." The Evangelist makes this statement in order to assure us that Joseph had no part in the conception of Jesus. The term eos ou does not require the understanding that he had relations with her after Christ was born. It merely indicates that, as regards the birth of Jesus, Joseph had not had relations with Mary prior to the birth, thus, he was not the father of Jesus. This is merely a usual turn of phrase, the use of a standard and familiar form of expression. This same term and meaning is used elsewhere in the Bible as a standard expression, and it clearly does not indicate what the heterodox (non-Orthodox) claim it does. At 2 Samuel 6:23, for instance, we read, "And Milchal, the daughter of Saul, had no child until [eos] her death. Did she, then, have children after her death? Of course not!, and neither did Joseph "know" Mary after the birth of Jesus. At Genesis 8:7, we read that Noah "sent forth a raven; and it went forth and did not return till [eos] after the water had gone from off the face of the earth." We know from Scripture that in fact, the raven never returned to the ark. It says that it did not return "until after," but in fact, it never returned at all. The Scripture says that "Joseph knew her not till after...", but in fact, he never "knew" her at all. In another example, the Bible says, 'The Lord said to my Lord, 'Sit at my right hand until [eos] I make Thine enemies Thy footstool" (Mark 12:36). Does this mean that Christ will cease to sit at the right hand of the glory of the Father once His enemies have been overcome? Of course not! Hence, the Bible does not say that "Joseph knew her not until after she brought forth her first born, but then he did." The Bible says, "He did not know her before (up until) she had brought forth her firstborn," meaning simply and clearly, "Joseph was not the father. He had not come together with her before her pregnancy, thus he was not involved in the conception of Jesus." Another testimony from Scripture is that on the cross, our Lord gave his holy mother into the care of the Apostle John (John 19:26). This might seem a merely practical thing to do, but if we recall the Mosaic Law would have dictated that she be given into the care of other natural children, since her firstborn son was dying. Christ, who kept the Law perfectly, would not have violated it in any detail, and so when he gave his mother to the apostle to look after, he did so only because she had no other children who could take her in, St. Joseph having long since passed away.
have had relations



This has nothing to do with the issue of whether Mary was a Perpetual Virgin.






—she had already dedicated herself to a life of virginity

Evidence?






.
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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Sure if you find me copies of the first epistles been written since the "beginning"

The statement, the apologetic was that the dogma of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary has been taught "always" and "from the beginning" and "in every generation." There must be something to document that or it would not be so stated; I'm simply asking the poster to copy and paste that to here. The apologetic is moot unless it's true - thus, it would be helpful to copy and paste that evidence of its truth here to this thread.


I don't at all follow your response. Is that a "sure - it's coming" or "no - I can't do that" what is that? Lost me, Friend. I never said that the any epistles were "from the beginning." Actually, there's no evidence of any epistles (or even writing) for a considerable time after Creation; but I'm lost what writing has to do with your statement. Are you stating that there wasn't writing in the First Century AD? I have no idea what you are trying to convey here. Again, the apologetic is that this dogma was taught "always" and "from the beginning" and by "all generations." Okay. Share the documentation for those statements - if you want anyone to consider it.






.
 
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Philothei

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All the above posted was about EV and the EO view on the topic. regardless scripture or not... Alll sources included. By saying "it does not have to do with the topic" you do not deal with its content. Good no one said you should. :) There are other folks out there who can share this information. As far as I am conserned if talking about Toyotas and Hondas are on topic for this thread so much more the information I provided :)
 
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Philothei

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Truths are from the beginning...I truly do not understand that the incarnation was "evidenced" from the beginning needs to be substantiated.... do you? Truths that are....just that they are...Trinity is from the beginning and still not 'evidenced" even in the Bible.... imagine that ;)
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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All the above posted was about EV and the EO view on the topic. regardless scripture or not... Alll sources included. By saying "it does not have to do with the topic" you do not deal with its content. Good no one said you should. :) There are other folks out there who can share this information. As far as I am conserned if talking about Toyotas and Hondas are on topic for this thread so much more the information I provided :)


1. So, are you or are you not going to share your documentation for your apologetic that this dogma was taught "always" "from the beginning" "in every generation?" If you won't, why should we consider it?

2. As an apologetic for the EVER - VIRGIN Mary (not anything else), you stated that A. THIS has been taught always, from the beginning and in every generation - but we're waiting for the evidence of that before we can begin to consider it. B. Scripture supports it, although nothing shared seemed relevant to the issue. C. We had a lot of stuff about whether Jesus had siblings or not - which is of course moot to the subject of whether Mary ever had ____ or not (unless you want to substantiate that every single instance of ____ results in the birth of a child mentioned in the Bible) which is the dogma (it's not "Jesus Had No Sibs" it's "Mary Had No ____").





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Thekla

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The statement, the apologetic was that the dogma of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary has been taught "always" and "from the beginning" and "in every generation." There must be something to document that or it would not be so stated; I'm simply asking the poster to copy and paste that to here. The apologetic is moot unless it's true - thus, it would be helpful to copy and paste that evidence of its truth here to this thread.


I don't at all follow your response. Is that a "sure - it's coming" or "no - I can't do that" what is that? Lost me, Friend. I never said that the any epistles were "from the beginning." Actually, there's no evidence of any epistles (or even writing) for a considerable time after Creation; but I'm lost what writing has to do with your statement. Are you stating that there wasn't writing in the First Century AD? I have no idea what you are trying to convey here. Again, the apologetic is that this dogma was taught "always" and "from the beginning" and by "all generations." Okay. Share the documentation for those statements - if you want anyone to consider it.






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Where is the documentation that states that everything that is taught must be documented :confused:
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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I am not interested on an ABC dialogue here ...just the plain facts of the Tradition of the EV or Mary.


See post # 933.


Friend, if your apologetic is to be considered, doesn't it need to be evidenced as true? If I said, "The Earth's Moon is made of cream cheese because all the moon rocks bought back from the Moon were cheese." Okay, I made by thesis and gave the apologetic. I have a hunch your response would be to evidence the apologetic. That's all I did. No reason to get testy. There's no reason for anyone to consider the apologetic you offered (".... always, from the beginning, every generation") if there's no support for it. Until then, it's moot, it's just an unevidence claim used to defend an unevidenced claim, an unknown doesn't substantiate an unknown; apologetics goes from KNOWN to unknown to substantiate the unknown.

I thought (and still do) that you would not state this apologetic - primarily and forcefully - if you had nothing to support it as being true; so I suspect you have the documentation. Just share it.
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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Where is the documentation that states that everything that is taught must be documented :confused:

1. It was stated that this dogma was taught, "ALWAYS, FROM THE BEGINNING, IN ALL GENERATIONS." That's the statement of fact, that's the first apologetic. If it's not evidence as true, it cannot be considered. Two unsubstantiated claims does not yield one substantiated anything.

2. So, I'm sure when the Mormon says all he/she does, you think: "It makes no difference if the Mormon has any support for that." And when I post something, your immediate reply is, "if you say it, Josiah, it's just GOTTA be a dogmatic fact!" Come on, my friend.....

3. Luke 1:34. I want to get back to your point that this confirms the Perpetual Virginity of Mary because the grammar mandates that. The grammar source you finally quoted didn't say that, in fact the example it used seems to indicate otherwise. Then you seemed to be suggesting that any "future" indicated by the present tense is "indefinate" rather than mandating perpetuality. I'm still confused about that. You said the GRAMMAR proves the point, I'm still unclear how it requires perpetuality. I know you then said it's not the grammar but the context, but which context? Not the "shall" as we saw. Not the text as we saw. None of that mandates perpetuality. So what context? YOUR context? Are you placing YOUR context into the text? Could you explain?



Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah




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Thekla

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1. It was stated that this dogma was taught, "ALWAYS, FROM THE BEGINNING, IN ALL GENERATIONS." That's the statement of fact, that's the first apologetic. If it's not evidence as true, it cannot be considered. Two unsubstantiated claims does not yield one substantiated anything.

If everything taught must be documented, then without documentation that everything taught must be documented, the claim that it must be documented to be true does not pass its own test of authenticity (unless it can be documented).

2. So, I'm sure when the Mormon says all he/she does, you think: "It makes no difference if the Mormon has any support for that." And when I post something, your immediate reply is, "if you say it, Josiah, it's just GOTTA be a dogmatic fact!" Come on, my friend.....

I said that :confused:

3. Luke 1:34. I want to get back to your point that this confirms the Perpetual Virginity of Mary because the grammar mandates that. The grammar source you finally quoted didn't say that, in fact the example it used seems to indicate otherwise. Then you seemed to be suggesting that any "future" indicated by the present tense is "indefinate" rather than mandating perpetuality. I'm still confused about that. You said the GRAMMAR proves the point, I'm still unclear how it requires perpetuality. I know you then said it's not the grammar but the context, but which context? Not the "shall" as we saw. Not the text as we saw. None of that mandates perpetuality. So what context? YOUR context? Are you placing YOUR context into the text? Could you explain?

Can you substantiate your claim with more than say-so ?
Please substantiate your claim that I stated that with some solid documentation.
 
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