Perpetual virginity (not a hate thread)

[CaliforniaJosiah]

No, I said, referring to months long use of the term "no sex ever" as a renaming of an EO teaching, that this shaves off the full meaning of the term "ever virgin".

Again, IMHO...

"Mary" = Mary and it's NOT incorrect, immature, rude, sex-crazed, offensive and a rule violation at CF to say so.
"Ever" and "Perpetual" = always, forever and it's NOT incorrect, immature, rude, sex-crazed, offensive and a rule violation at CF to say so.
"Virgin" = virgin (ie one who has not had sex) and it's NOT immature, rude, sex-crazed, offensive and a rule violation at CF to say so

Now, I not only NEVER said that that's ALL "virgin" means - I have stressed, repeatedly and boldly and clearly - that it is NOT. But I have been told repeatedly that it's immature, rude, sex-crazed, offensive and a rule violation at CF to say that Mary never had sex.


News flash: The Ever-Virgin Mary (the EASTERN ORTHODOX'S TITLE FOR THIS DOGMA) is made up of 4 words, and they mean that Mary never had sex. It's very likely not ALL it means (I repeatedly stressed that it does not), but it DOES mean that. I don't know why that is so offensive, painful, embarrassing or disturbing to some Orthodox. I don't know why that is regarded as immature, sex-crazed, hormone-driven, carnal especially when it's NOT my teaching, it's YOURS. But....

Like I said, I give up.
Like you said, this cannot be discussed with the Orthodox.
Obviously.
I'll never know why, and that's okay.
It's almost unavoidable to conclude otherwise than that you are deeply disturbed and embarrassed by YOUR teaching, and yet I'm confident that you aren't.
Odd. Very odd.
Some cultural thing, I suspect.


I'm outta here....



:o





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[Thekla]

Actually, what I said is that a discussion cannot occur without listening ...

when the explanation has been given (over months) it has been ignored. IE - there has not been a discussion.

 

[Uphill Battle]

The practice is that nuns should live in virginity (there is no dogma ...about that only canons that are followed about monasticism) Living in virginity pressuposes the "physical idea" of living a "no sex ever" life but that is not all that it means. Living in virginity is a "state" of living a life of purity, a life that in Orthodox monasticism is a calling from God... Do you see the difference. Theotokos had a specific calling to that virginity and purity from God that is where the her life is parallel to those who live a celibant life, and beyond the ones who are "set apart" for a life in virginity and it is hardly a "skin deep" affair.

I don't know about that. You could be a physical virgin your entire life, and not be pure!

is purity associated only with those of physical chastity?

No, I said, referring to months long use of the term "no sex ever" as a renaming of an EO teaching, that this shaves off the full meaning of the term "ever virgin".

If it is needed, the archives can be used to review the threads and the persistent renaming of the EO teaching in this manner.

I have had a real hard time following this. I understand the EO position in this, that it is more than just an abstinance from sex, however, all the devotion, and specialness aside, it is fundamental for the doctrine of ever virginity that physical chastity is also part. And frankly, the key part, because devotion and special relationship wouldn't be earmarked as virginity, if it were not for the physical reality of chastity as well.

this is all very, very confusing why everyone is up in arms about this.

 

[Philothei]

especially when it's NOT my teaching,

I agree it is NOT your teaching thus why bother if you do not understand it... Here this is from valid EO sources:


The Virgin Mary

The Virgin Mary is the woman God chose to bear His Son in this world. The Orthodox believe in the ever-virginity of Mary. Since God chose her to manifest His presence among men, she is called, " All Holy" and the bridge between God and man. For this reason, she is highly praised and venerated in the Orthodox Church. The Orthodox always pray to the Virgin Mary, beseeching her to intercede for us to God. The Orthodox do not worship the Virgin Mary-worship is do to God alone. The Orthodox make a distinction between worship and intercessory prayer. Just as we ask other people to pray for us, we ask the Virgin Mary, for she has found favor in God's eyes and has a very unique relationship with God, to pray (intercede) for us. It should be noted that the Virgin Mary and all the saints are ceaselessly praying for all of us.

http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/readings/Orthodox_Church/The_Virgin_Mary.shtml
http://dic.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enwiki/375926
The

Perpetual Virginity of Mary, a dogma of the Roman Catholic ["Catechism of the Catholic Church" &#167;499] Church, and also of the Eastern Orthodox Church and Oriental Orthodoxy, which in their liturgy repeatedly refer to Mary as "ever virgin", [ [http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/liturgy/liturgy.html Divine Liturgy of St John Chrysostom] , [http://www.coptic.net/prayers/StBasilLiturgy.html Coptic Liturgy of St Basil] , [http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/liturgy/liturgy_of_st_cyril.pdf Liturgy of St Cyril] , [http://web.ukonline.co.uk/ephrem/lit-james.htm Liturgy of St James] , [http://www.frmichel.najim.net/liturgyvid.pdf Understanding the Orthodox Liturgy] , etc.] affirms Mary's "real and perpetual virginity even in the act of giving birth to the Son of God made Man." Thus, according to this Church dogma, Mary was ever-virgin (Greek ", </I>]

Show us where is the term "no sex ever" is used in our EO tradition and then we can discuss the rest...

 

[Thekla]

I don't know about that. You could be a physical virgin your entire life, and not be pure!

EXACTLY !!!!

I have had a real hard time following this. I understand the EO position in this, that it is more than just an abstinance from sex, however, all the devotion, and specialness aside, it is fundamental for the doctrine of ever virginity that physical chastity is also part. And frankly, the key part, because devotion and special relationship wouldn't be earmarked as virginity, if it were not for the physical reality of chastity as well.

this is all very, very confusing why everyone is up in arms about this.

a few pages back is a 5th c Christian reference to virginity as referring to 'of mind/spiritual use' and also the physical.

The particular abstinence of the Virgin Mary arises from something and is related to/arises from the Incarnation.

One can be of a "virgin mind" and still be sexually active (as per the previous quote).

To locate Mary's virginity as being only physical is to miss her "spiritual virginity" and her sophrosyne/integratedness/wholeness and her role in the Incarnation.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

this is all very, very confusing why everyone is up in arms about this.

Just PART of the amazing puzzle of the EO's dogma.....

I just said that the dogma teaches that Mary never had sex.
And BOW, suddenly, I was this crude, carnal, sex-crazed, immature, horrible, hormone-driven guy violating rules of CF. NO ONE is more amazed by the EO's reaction than me.

I TRIED, in 2 or 3 threads, over some time to understand this, to no avail. All it has accomplished is to prove to me that Mary and sex is a VERY sensitive issue for a denomination (one of 2 or 3 in all Christiandom) that regards that issue as a matter of highest importance. There's something here (cultural, I suspect) that just isn't being revealed.

Not all puzzles have solutions. Yes, it sure seems that they go to AMAZING, absolutely AMAZINGLY lengths to deny and distance themselves from the very dogma they insist they support, but such is certainly not the case.

Oh well....
We tried....







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[Philothei]

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You could be a physical virgin your entire life, and not be pure!

true no one is saying the opposite.. .But to be considered to live a life in virginity it is not ONLY to live without sex... It is more than that that is the starting point... The rest has to do with more than just the physical sense... To have pure thoughts is mostly to live in virginity.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Show us where is the term "no sex ever" is used in our EO tradition and then we can discuss the rest...

Does the EO teach that Mary did or did not ever have sex? Yes? No?

Is that teaching DOGMA? Yes? No?




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[Philothei]

Perpetual Virginity of Mary, a dogma of the Roman Catholic ["Catechism of the Catholic Church" &#167;499] Church, and also of the Eastern Orthodox Church and Oriental Orthodoxy, which in their liturgy repeatedly refer to Mary as "ever virgin", [ [http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/liturgy/liturgy.html Divine Liturgy of St John Chrysostom] , [http://www.coptic.net/prayers/StBasilLiturgy.html Coptic Liturgy of St Basil] , [http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/l...f_st_cyril.pdf Liturgy of St Cyril] , [http://web.ukonline.co.uk/ephrem/lit-james.htm Liturgy of St James] , [http://www.frmichel.najim.net/liturgyvid.pdf Understanding the Orthodox Liturgy] , etc.] affirms Mary's "real and perpetual virginity even in the act of giving birth to the Son of God made Man." Thus, according to this Church dogma, Mary was ever-virgin (Greek ", </I>]

it is not a matter of WHAT we believe but how you interpret it and translate the word "virgin" and you do not translate it according to EO tradition but chose your own interpretation. that is all in a nutshell...

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

.

Thekla,


Does the EO teach that Mary did or did not ever have sex? Yes? No?

Is that teaching DOGMA? Yes? No?




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[Philothei]

if you equate the :"no sex ever" to virginity no...that is not what the EO is teaching ... If your understanding about virginity is in the prespective of how Virginity is percieved in the EO theology then yes.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Originally Posted by Philothei

Show us where is the term "no sex ever" is used in our EO tradition and then we can discuss the rest.

Philothei,


Does the EO teach that Mary did or did not ever have sex? Yes? No?

Is that teaching DOGMA? Yes? No?





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[Philothei]

That is NOT the dogma we teach... Your understanding about EO dogma on Theotokos and Ever Virgin Mary is defenately impcomplete if you equate the word "parthenos" to the "no sex ever" as seen in theological terminology of the Eastern Orhtodox Church

 

[Philothei]

Yes Virgin Mary did not have sex. But that does not consittute the definition for Virgin only in the physical sense as she was also a "spiritual virgin" in her dispostion and thinking.

Thus your terminology is imcomplete

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

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Virgin Mary did not have sex.

Um. When I posted that as belief of the Eastern Orthodox, I was accused of being offensive, carnal, immature, hormone-driven, sex-crazed. And posting what you just did is a Rule Violation here at CF.

THAT'S what I've been trying to understand for some months now....
Why can YOU say it, but when I say it, I'm immature, crude, carnal, rude, offensive and violating the rules for posting here at CF? Why did saying WHAT YOU SAID is soooooooooooooooo horrible, offensive, rude when I say it? THAT has been my question.




Now, on to the second question:

Is what you said an official teaching of your denomination?

Let's look at the 3 options:

1. The EO takes no stand whatsoever on whether Mary had sex or not. It has NO VIEW on if she had sex 5000 times, 500 times, 50 times, zero times - it has no official position on that whatsoever. Yes? No?

2. The EO takes the position that Mary DID have sex. Yes? No?

3. The EO takes the position that Mary did NOT have sex. Ever. Yes? No?



Thank you!!! In one post, we made more progress that in WEEKS of discussions, let's see if we can continue that.






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[Uphill Battle]

There is a whole lot of quibbling going on, and for no good purpose that I can see!


YES the EO teaches that Mary "never had sex." I'm not sure why it's hard for them to say as such, since that is fundamentally what virgin means, however, I can also see where the concept of "ever virginity" is far greater than that of simply abstaining from sexual relations.

I am with CJ on this one thing: I don't know why it's so hard to just say "yes, we teach dogmatically that Mary didn't have sex" because it's true. I'm with my EO bretheren, in that I understand why it might be mildly offensive, but I think both sides need to put down their saber and realize that neither side is technically wrong.

 

[Thekla]

There is a whole lot of quibbling going on, and for no good purpose that I can see!


YES the EO teaches that Mary "never had sex." I'm not sure why it's hard for them to say as such, since that is fundamentally what virgin means, however, I can also see where the concept of "ever virginity" is far greater than that of simply abstaining from sexual relations.

I am with CJ on this one thing: I don't know why it's so hard to just say "yes, we teach dogmatically that Mary didn't have sex" because it's true. I'm with my EO bretheren, in that I understand why it might be mildly offensive, but I think both sides need to put down their saber and realize that neither side is technically wrong.

Please try and understand -- the term "no sex ever" has been repeatedly used as a renaming of an EO term. This is misleading because it is incomplete. The teaching is the fullness of the teaching. Look over the threads for aprox. a year -- we have answered on the sex issue, we have tried to describe the teaching in its fullness and over hundreds of posts "no sex ever" returns.

Should we make as an acceptable standard to rename the teachings of other Churches and repeat this ad nauseum ?

Finally, I don't care whose "side" you take. And frankly, referring to the teaching of ever-virginity as no-sex-ever is technically wrong. As I stated earlier, when referring to the mathematical formula for calculating the area of a rectangle, we do not say:
L x W = area is the same as L = area, and we do not say that L = area is partially true.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

There is a whole lot of quibbling going on, and for no good purpose that I can see!

.... just TRYING to understand WHY it is so very, very offensive to the EO to say that Mary never had sex. I - entirely unintentionally - set off a firestorm like I've never experienced on the internet before (and I've been posting A LOT for about 10 years now), resulting in horrible PM's, bold accusations, several reports on my posts, etc. because I said that the EO teaches that Mary never had sex. As a result, I (and a lot of others) have had to spend HOURS dealing with their anger and accusations because I said that the EO teaches that Mary never had sex. Aweful statements, PM's. HOURS of work - on my part and others. I'm TRYING to understand why some Orthodox seem so offended by that when it seems to be what the EO teaches. Well, tried.

And, you know, I'm NOT a horrible, sex-crazed, hormone-drive, sex obsessed, person dedicated to offens. It DOES bother me to be so characterized.

YES the EO teaches that Mary "never had sex." I'm not sure why it's hard for them to say as such, since that is fundamentally what virgin means, however, I can also see where the concept of "ever virginity" is far greater than that of simply abstaining from sexual relations.

.... that's been my consistent position. NEVER in my life has a position gotten me so much condemnation and resulted in so much trouble and work for me. At least on the internet.






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[CaliforniaJosiah]

Originally Posted by Philthei

Virgin Mary did not have sex.
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Um. When I posted that as belief of the Eastern Orthodox, I was accused of being offensive, carnal, immature, hormone-driven, sex-crazed, offensive and more. And posting what you just did is a Rule Violation here at CF.

THAT'S what I've been trying to understand for some months now....
Why can YOU say it, but when I say it, I'm immature, crude, carnal, rude, offensive and violating the rules for posting here at CF? Why did saying WHAT YOU SAID is so absolutely horrible, offensive, rude when I say it but not when you say it? THAT has been my question.




Now, on to the second question:

Is what you said an official teaching of your denomination?

Let's look at the 3 options:

1. The EO takes no stand whatsoever on whether Mary had sex or not. It has NO VIEW on if she had sex 5000 times, 500 times, 50 times, zero times - it has no official position on that whatsoever. Yes? No?

2. The EO takes the position that Mary DID have sex. Yes? No?

3. The EO takes the position that Mary did NOT have sex. Ever. Yes? No?



Thank you!!! In one post, we made more progress that in WEEKS of discussions, let's see if we can continue that.






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[Thekla]

here:

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7302640

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7308828

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7289959

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=4927631

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7289757

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7259493

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=5323376

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7235674&highlight=speak+lovingly+mary

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7294057&highlight=speak+lovingly+mary&page=2


If you like, I'll look into finding more.