Perpetual virginity (not a hate thread)

[jckstraw72]

its ridiculous to claim "they have no dogma" since non-denoms and others like that dont get together and proclaim dogmas. but since every single person you talk to in a non-denom church (im using them specifically bc i used to be one) will most definitely believe that Mary had other children its on equal footing with dogma. they all believe it. they are without a doubt against the ever-virginity of Mary. its dogma to them.

 

[Uphill Battle]

no, it's not.


research what dogma means.

 

[Philothei]

if you say so... good you have no dogma... So what? No big deal. One day you can say Christ is God and the next he is not... That is denying belief in Jesus Christ. But whatever floats your sail...

 

[Uphill Battle]

if you are going to accuse me of such a statement, kindly tell me where I said it.

 

[Thekla]

don't think she was, but it is a potential outcome of "no dogma"

 

[MrPolo]

Does anyone have any thoughts? Did I miss anything or is this already common knowledge?

Outstanding reason you use. Indeed, this is one of many passages indicative of Mary having no other children. For what it's worth, one of the things that made me a strong Catholic was studying Scripture, untainted by any apologetics, in my younger day. And I consistently drew conclusions that matched the teachings of the Church, as I found out years later. Keep up your studies. Sounds like you have a wise head on your shoulders. God bless.

 

[Musa80]

you're basing much on possibility. Tell me, (and personally, I believe that Mary had kids, but it's not of huge import to me) if you came across a MARRIED couple without kids, would you assume virginity?

This thread has been silent for a few days but I really have to question this. You are right that if one came upon a MARRIED couple, it would be assumed that they had proper relations whether or not they had kids. Now if you could do this simple person one favor and find exactly where in your Bible that Mary and Joseph were married. Betrothed =/= Married. As it would stand you are making the assumption that the Mother of God had sexual relations outside of marriage and are accusing one described as "full of grace" of a rather egregious sin.

 

[Uphill Battle]

I don't ascribe to the "they never got married" mindest of the EO. I believe that it drastically ignores the evidence of scripture to state this. I've been over it with Thekla before, I'm not really all that interested in repeating the process.

 

[Tu Es Petrus]

I don't ascribe to the "they never got married" mindest of the EO. I believe that it drastically ignores the evidence of scripture to state this. I've been over it with Thekla before, I'm not really all that interested in repeating the process.

Actually, there is no marriage ceremony recorded in the Bible, so if I were going to employ "Sola Scriptura" I would have to conclude that there is no Biblical evidence either way.

Betrothal is different than marriage in Jewish culture. A couple could stay betrothed for a year before actually consumating a marrige. Speaking for myself, I would have extreme difficulty bringing myself to have sexual relations with a holy woman who just gave birth to the Son of God. And since Joseph is called a righteous man in the Scriptures, its possible he had the same difficulty. That is not an unreasonable assumption

 

[Uphill Battle]

Actually, there is no marriage ceremony recorded in the Bible, so if I were going to employ "Sola Scriptura" I would have to conclude that there is no Biblical evidence either way.

incorrect. You do not understand Sola Scriptura.

Betrothal is different than marriage in Jewish culture. A couple could stay betrothed for a year before actually consumating a marrige. Speaking for myself, I would have extreme difficulty bringing myself to have sexual relations with a holy woman who just gave birth to the Son of God. And since Joseph is calle d righteous man in the Scriptures, its possible he had the same difficulty. That is not an unreasonable assumption

you are injecting your personal assumption unto the situation. You have no reason beyond assumption to state what Joseph would or would not do.

 

[Tu Es Petrus]

incorrect. You do not understand Sola Scriptura.


you are injecting your personal assumption unto the situation. You have no reason beyond assumption to state what Joseph would or would not do.

I merely said it is not an unreasonable assumption.

 

[Musa80]

I don't ascribe to the "they never got married" mindest of the EO. I believe that it drastically ignores the evidence of scripture to state this. I've been over it with Thekla before, I'm not really all that interested in repeating the process.

Ah, so Holy Tradition passed down through the ages is out but interjecting your 21st century assumptions into what is not written is justifiable. Gotcha

 

[Uphill Battle]

Who'se Holy Tradition? there are numerous versions.

You're "passed through the ages" says they didn't Marry, that is why they were celibate.

RCC (typically) says they were married, but remained celibate.

shall I flip a coin?

also, are you able to provide the earliest documentaion on the "Tradition" that they never married?

 

[Thekla]

Look at cultural definitions of marriage and the particular understanding of marriage; some cultures accept that a marriage can be celibate, others do not consider it "marriage" until "consummation".

 

[Uphill Battle]

Look at cultural definitions of marriage and the particular understanding of marriage; some cultures accept that a marriage can be celibate, others do not consider it "marriage" until "consummation".

for instance, Jewish marriage, for example?

 

[Thekla]

for instance, Jewish marriage, for example?

I don't know offhand - it'd be interesting to know the 'standard' of 2,000 years ago, though !

 

[Uphill Battle]

hard to find the standard for 2000 years ago.

read up on "onah." though, talmudic jews today stil observe it...

 

[Thekla]

hard to find the standard for 2000 years ago.

read up on "onah." though, talmudic jews today stil observe it...

Actually I have; but also each party had to "agree" (a form of obligation toward each other in agreement). In contrast, in ancient Athens marital relations were the law (3x per month).

Although without the terminology, this was discussed in Mariology some months ago. (The right to keep a pre-existing vow, the complaint of Moses' wife, etc.) Also, that pregnancy by another than the betrothed during the betrothal period was a 'covenant breaker'.

 

[jckstraw72]

does the RCC actually believe they were married but celibate, rather than remaining betrothed? ive never heard that before

 

[narnia59]

does the RCC actually believe they were married but celibate, rather than remaining betrothed? ive never heard that before

The Catholic church does not have an official position on that -- simply that Mary remained a virgin. My assumption has always been they were married and I never really thought about it much until the topic came up in this forum.