Perpetual motion

[visionary]

giant sea bats dun it.

A serious testimony to the fact that science and its laws are not all discovered yet...

 

[pgp_protector]

Someone who did things that are outside the box...

Coral Castle - The Secrets of Coral Castle

The Mysterious Coral Castle: A Fanciful Myth | LiveScience

Coral Castle - Crystalinks

 

[Nostromo]

A serious testimony to the fact that science and its laws are not all discovered yet...

More that some people are willing to jump to premature and fanciful conclusions.

 

[peadar1987]

A serious testimony to the fact that science and its laws are not all discovered yet...

In the actual link you posted:

When he was personally asked how he managed the feat, Leedskalnin replied only that he understood the laws of weight and leverage.

Seriously, give me 20 years, and enough rope and pulleys, and I'll move some rocks around for you as well. Really big ones!

 

[Wirraway]

its easier to walk around in open jaw credulity than to think.

 

[visionary]

 

[corvus_corax]

I'm not theoretical physicist, but my understanding of this would be that pressure is a form of energy, caused by a force, which is gravity.

That's what I was thinking later the next day after my post.

By definition a force is something which tends to cause the conversion of energy from one form to another

I'm needing further explanation regarding this
Thanks in advance

but a force isn't a form of energy in and of itself.

Is not Gravity the energy that attracts us to the planet we live on?
Just wondering
And thanks for your insights and questions.

However, increasing pressure would cause mass effects as the energy increases, which would theoretically increase the gravitational potential energy of any particle in the gravity well of the star. It goes beyond my Netwonian understanding of the subject anyway, and I don't know enough about relativity to make an informed comment.

So, perhaps my understanding of the C Limit is correct, but my understanding of the energy involved is confused?


And yes, I'm ignoring all the other bovine feces on this thread and focusing for now on this subject (because it's important)

 

[corvus_corax]

its easier to walk around in open jaw credulity than to think.

It's easier to make snarky comments than to post anything with meaning.

Have fun with that

 

[Wirraway]

It's easier to make snarky comments than to post anything with meaning.

Have fun with that

I'm reading a thread where some posters are describing perpetual motion machines and others are gushing to their defense. this is beyond stupid.

Have fun with that

 

[Freodin]

Get that to work in reality instead of a funny gif-picture and you´d see me impressed.

But I wonder: did you read the related article? Did you understand it?

Or are you just trolling?

 

[corvus_corax]

But I wonder: did you read the related article? Did you understand it?

Or are you just trolling?

Speaking to?
Just curious that's all, since you didn't direct this post to any one forumite

 

[corvus_corax]

I'm reading a thread where some posters are describing perpetual motion machines and others are gushing to their defense. this is beyond stupid.

Have fun with that

And non-contributing snarky comments contribute nothing. They, on certain boards, might be considered trolling. Believe me, as a member on these forums for the past few years, I've tried to learn this lesson over and over again.
But enough with having fun with that. I don't want to risk a personal argument here.

Please note that I'm not in any way agreeing with the concept of perpetual motion. After all, my initial question had to do with gravity and pressure, ala the C limit.

 

[Freodin]

Speaking to?
Just curious that's all, since you didn't direct this post to any one forumite

I quoted a post by visionary, where she posted that pic of the perpetually moving spring-coil.

The pic came somewhere from this site The Museum of Unworkable Devices Physics Gallery... and this article does indeed give a very good explanation of the principle/s of PMMs... and why they don´t work, and why their "inventors" still try to make them work.

So I wondered... if she, who seems to support the idea of "tinkering to find some loopholes in the accpeted laws of physics" did get a pic from that site... did she read the article? And if she did, and understood it... is she pulling our legs by posting this "mysterious" junk?

 

[peadar1987]

I'm needing further explanation regarding this
Thanks in advance

Well, a force is anything which tries to change the velocity of an object (it doesn't actually have to succeed, because there can be other forces cancelling it out). Energy is a property of an object. So if you take the example of a man pushing a piano, he's putting a force on one end of the damn thing, friction is putting a force the other way, and a small amount of energy is converted from chemical energy in his muscles, to kinetic energy in the piano.

Is not Gravity the energy that attracts us to the planet we live on?
Just wondering
And thanks for your insights and questions.

So gravity is a force, because it acts on objects. If you put something high up, it will have a lot of potential energy, because the force of gravity will try to pull on it, and this force will tend to convert the gravitational potential energy into kinetic energy (which will be released in the form of heat, noise, and deformation when the object hits the ground)

So although gravity isn't itself a form of energy, it can cause objects to have energy, in the same way that a person pushing isn't itself a form of energy, but can cause the piano to gain energy.

So, perhaps my understanding of the C Limit is correct, but my understanding of the energy involved is confused?

I'll do some digging o the C Limit, because it's something I'm not too familiar with, but it is very interesting.

 

[LightHorseman]

Someone who did things that are outside the box...

Coral Castle - The Secrets of Coral Castle

Outside the box? Certainly. Supernaturally or against the known laws of physics? Or with a block and tackle and more that average patience?

Fun fact: Billy Idol's song "Sweet 16" is about Coral Castle.

 

[sfs]

From the book E=MC2 by David Bodanis-
"Chandra*...knew that a dense core of a star is under a lot of pressure**, and now he began to think about the fact that pressure** is a form of energy"
"A compressed star is under a lot of new pressure**, and that pressure** can be considered a form of energy, and wherever there's a concentration of energy, the surrounding space and time will act just as if there's a concentration of mass"

Essentially, the gravity ratchets up due to the mass of the star combined with the pressure of gravity (i.e. the mass of the star increases the energy of gravity, which in turn increases the "mass", which in turn increases the etc etc etc)


Or am I completely misunderstanding the Chandrasekhar limit?


* Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
** i.e. Gravity

I'm not a theoretical physicist either (although I do have a PhD in physics), but I think what you've quoted is quite wrong. First, pressure is not a form of energy; it's just force per area. Pressure can do work (i.e. transfer energy) if it moves something, but it is itself not energy.

Second, it is true that energy does warp space (as described by General Relativity), but this has almost nothing to do with the Chandrasekhar limit. There are general relativistic corrections to the limit, but they're very small -- white dwarfs are basically "Newtonian" objects, i.e. you can ignore General Relativity.

The basic idea of the limit is as follows. The core of a modest sized star becomes a white dwarf star, which contains fully ionized atoms and a hot gas of electrons, confined by the pressure of gravity on the core. Electrons are fermions, which means (by the Pauli exclusion principle) that each electron has to be in a different quantum state within the gas; this they do by having slightly different energies. (In a confined space, the number of possible energy states is finite in quantum mechanics.) Under these conditions, the electrons form a "degenerate gas", in which all of the lower-energy quantum states are occupied by electrons, and the average electron energy is very high.

These high-energy electrons create an effective pressure that counteracts the force of gravity, and that keeps the core from collapsing under its own weight. (More precisely, compressing the core further increases the number of electrons per volume, which means that they have to occupy higher energy states, so work has to be done to compress the core.) Increasing the mass shrinks the core, until the increasing pressure balances the increased force of gravity. At some mass, however, the pressure from the degenerate gas cannot balance gravity, and the core collapses (until it is stopped by its neutrons forming another degenerate gas); that mass is the Chandrasekhar limit.

 

[peadar1987]

I'm not a theoretical physicist either (although I do have a PhD in physics), but I think what you've quoted is quite wrong. First, pressure is not a form of energy; it's just force per area. Pressure can do work (i.e. transfer energy) if it moves something, but it is itself not energy.

It depends what you're talking about. In engineering it's sometimes convenient to treat pressure as potential energy, as there is an energy associated with a pressurised system. You're right though, I should have made a clearer distinction between pressure as a form of potential energy, and pressure as force per unit area.

 

[Wirraway]

....

Please note that I'm not in any way agreeing with the concept of perpetual motion. ...

sure you're not. you're just debating an issue that's been dead for a couple of hundred years.

 

[Nostromo]

Judging by the link in the first post, not everyone got the message.

 

[sfs]

It depends what you're talking about. In engineering it's sometimes convenient to treat pressure as potential energy, as there is an energy associated with a pressurised system.

This sort of thing is the reason that physicists don't let engineers date their daughters. (Mathematicians have similar feelings about physicists.)