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[PERMANENTLY CLOSED] When should we change our reasoning / beliefs?

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nomadictheist

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If I may butt in here on a couple of points...

It may have been a conclusion at some point, but at this point it's a premise.

As I said, I have my reasons for believing that God is real. It's a premise for me at this point, but I know that you have a different interpretation of the same facts that led me to believe that in the first place. I believe God exists because I believe that God is a better explanation for all the order and structure in the universe and in earth's ecosystem than random chance. You have a differing opinion. How did you decide your particular god did this? How did you rule out Odin, Thor etc etc. How did you rule out interdimentional universe constructing aliens?

Perhaps I should restructure the premise slightly: the premise that most believers work from is that God creating order and structure from chaos makes more sense than the alternative - random chance creating order out of Chaos. Atheists work from the premise that random chance creating order out of chaos makes more sense than God creating order out of chaos. Two points here. How did the god character get into play at all - without resorting to special pleading? Was it random chance or did an even godlier god create it? Can you define order? The universe is orderly in some sense but chaotic in others. Would you call radioactive decay orderly? Would you call the predisposition of some people to get cancer orderly? So regardless of your conclusion, there's still a premise that you accept before drawing your final conclusions about God. But once you've drawn your conclusion, it becomes part of your premise for approaching any evidence pointing to God's existence.

For example, you staunchly deny the witness of the thousands who saw Jesus after His resurrection, (no such witnesses exist - there is one account written by one unknown person who wasn't an eyewitness) and those who watched His ascension to heaven, which would certainly be strong evidence. Your denial (this is not a denial, this is a reasoned view of the facts) has no merit except for your predetermined idea (premise) that God is, in fact, not real and the Bible is just a story written to try to convince people that He is. Your view (that God does not exist) determines your analysis of the evidence. (no other view is reasonable since no good evidence supports the claim)

The same is true of science. Where a creationist (which I would call anybody who believes that God created the world) looks at the universe, the earth, and all the order and structure in it and sees this as evidence of God's handiwork, an atheist looks at the same structure and order and sees it as evidence of the amazing effects of random chance. (I've always considered this to be a rather disingenuous statement - as though everything just popped into being by pure random collision of atoms. That's a distortion of reality where that just doesn't happen. What exactly are the random elements? The nature of the universe at the point of expansion - quite possibly - but after that - not really so much randomness at all - yet all still natural) The analysis of the evidence is predetermined by a premise (perhaps once a conclusion) that it makes more sense to believe that random chance resulted in all this order and structure than that God exists and created it.

It would be rather fun if there was a god and we could all live for ever - fantastic even though probably a bit boring after a while - but the evidence rules against it
God is eternal. That means He had no beginning, and will have no end.
You can have a problem with that or not, as you choose. I have a problem with the idea that drawing random chance out over periods of millions of years makes it no longer random.

My choice to believe in the God Yahweh over the other gods came down to my belief that this is the most reasonable God to believe in. I would prefer to believe in a God who is unfathomable to our minds because of His absolute power, knowledge, love, goodness, etc. than in dozens of gods who get in petty quarrels and use humans as their instruments to fight with each other.

And actually, you say "no such witness exists" because it is only recorded by "one person," but there are actually 5 separate accounts of at least 12 people seeing Him after His resurrection, even if there is only one written record of the thousands of others. And we have the ongoing witness of the church that came about as a result of the word that was spread by these thousands of witnesses.

Random elements are all over the place, unless you expect me to believe that there is some natural order that drives the universe toward self-creating life. You cite things like "adaptation" and "natural selection," but there's absolutely nothing for the first cells that ever came into being to adapt to, and just the circumstances that would be required for a first cell to exist at all are so extraordinarily improbable as to make any reasonable person incredulous (unless they had already accepted that this was the only reasonable explanation).

There's order in just about everything in life. Especially radioactive decay. Do you know what a "half-life" is? How does it not represent order that the radioactive decay occurs at a rate that is measurably orderly?

And the way that the ecosystem on earth works. Do you know what a symbiotic relationship is? There are hundreds - even thousands of those on the planet. Two separate entities that depend on each other for life and sustenance.

The way cells are copied and replicated is also very orderly. And all signs point to this process deteriorating over time, which would seem really weird from the point of view that it didn't start out from a better state than it's in now.

And to reply to Archaeopteryx, it makes sense of the all of the order and structure that is present in the world and how it came into being that way.

It has been shown many times that DNA mutations - upon which the entire theories of abiogenesis and evolution of all beings from single celled organisms are constructed - are completely random. And overwhelmingly negative.
 
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anonymous person

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This is also known as closing your mind. So you've found an idea that is palatable to you and you've decided that here the inquiry must stop. There's no particular reason it must come to a halt at that point but you no longer care; you assume you already know it all - the Truth with a capital T. The possibility that you could be wrong is vanquished as a demon called "doubt."

Ahhh....

Now I see what you are getting at.

You see being a Christian as something diametrically opposed to rational inquiry and investigation and exploration into the wonders of the natural world.

You think that if you are a Christian you would have to forfeit doing those things that you love i.e. learning, exploring, discovering awesome and wonderful things about the world we live in etc. etc.

No no no my friend. You have it all wrong. Just look back at the history of science. Many of its pioneers were God-fearing men and women. Even today, many learned men and women are Christians and see no conflict at all with their beliefs and their passions and hobbies which are scientific in their nature.

You can be a scientist and Christian. The two are not mutually exclusive!! :)

It is just that when you study nature, no longer do you see it as something that was brought about by natural causes alone, but rather, you see it as the handiwork of a marvelous and awesome God who made it all for us to enjoy and take care of.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Ahhh....

Now I see what you are getting out.

You see being a Christian as something diametrically opposed to rational inquiry and investigation and exploration into the wonders of the natural world.

You think that if you are a Christian you would have to forfeit doing those things that you love i.e. learning, exploring, discovering awesome and wonderful things about the world we live in etc. etc.
No, that's not what I claimed at all. You have it all wrong. This is about you feigning to be open to be convinced when, in reality, you clearly are not. You are now attempting to redirect the conversation elsewhere to avoid dealing with this revelation.
 
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bhsmte

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The more a true Christian thinks about their beliefs the more clear their beliefs become thus strengthening their faith, so I'm really not sure how I'm ever going to be convinced that God doesn't exist. But I'm not expecting you to try and convince me, I'm only here to help you think about things in new ways in the hopes that you'll realize what is true.

Define true Christian.
 
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Chriliman

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Given that you have yet to articulate a coherent position, I'm not sure what you are even claiming to be right about. At the moment, I'm doubting that you are in this to have a serious discussion.

Its simple, I'm claiming to be correct that truth is infinite and timeless. Meaning I am not the original source of truth and you are not the original source of truth and a finite universe is not the original source of truth. Only an infinite and timeless existence can be the source of truth. My positions is that this infinite and timeless existence is God. Have I made my position more clear to you?
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Its simple, I'm claiming to be correct that truth is infinite and timeless. Meaning I am not the original source of truth and you are not the original source of truth and a finite universe is not the original source of truth. Only an infinite and timeless existence can be the source of truth. My positions is that this infinite and timeless existence is God. Have I made my position more clear to you?
Word salad.
 
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bhsmte

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If there were not evidence for my beliefs, they would not be my beliefs. All of my beliefs are evidenced and supported in sundry ways.

That's all cool for yourself personally, but you have presented nothing of substance that is convincing to believe you have it right.
 
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bhsmte

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I have been given no good reason to think that The Holy Spirit is not incontrovertible. Until I have a good reason to change my views on the matter, my views shall remain the same.

How do you think having the personal position it is impossible for you to be wrong, impacts how you view evidence?
 
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Chriliman

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Define true Christian.

Great question and I don't think your going to like my answer. The definition of a true Christian is someone who has completely submitted themselves to the infinite and timeless truth of Jesus Christ who was and is and is to come.
 
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bhsmte

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Great question and I don't think your going to like my answer. The definition of a true Christian is someone who has completely submitted themselves to the infinite and timeless truth of Jesus Christ who was and is and is to come.

And how does one determine if someone meets this criteria?
 
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anonymous person

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No, that's not what I claimed at all. You have it all wrong. This is about you feigning to be open to be convinced when, in reality, you clearly are not. You are now attempting to redirect the conversation elsewhere to avoid dealing with this revelation.

Is it my fault that the arguments against my beliefs proferred by atheists are found to be unconvincing?

You take no issue with rejecting what you deem unconvincing. Do you deny me the right?

You are not going to convince me that I am wrong because you bring nothing to the table but doubt and "I don't know".

Your responses are like every other atheist I have dealt with. You want me to doubt and question my beliefs because you have something against me being sure of my beliefs, yet you offer nothing whatsoever that would give me good reason to doubt my beliefs.

Are you sure the earth is round? Are you sure 2 and 2 is 4? Are you sure you exist? If you are sure then how dare you not be open to reconsidering your position on such questions! How dare you be so closed minded!!! ;)

But if you are not sure, well then I must caution you that if you remain so open minded as to not be able to affirm the above that you may be in danger of having your brain fall out of your skull!!!
 
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bhsmte

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Is it my fault that the arguments against my beliefs proferred by atheists are found to be unconvincing?

You take no issue with rejecting what you deem unconvincing. Do you deny me the right?

You are not going to convince me that I am wrong because you bring nothing to the table but doubt and "I don't know".

Your responses are like every other atheist I have dealt with. You want me to doubt and question my beliefs because you have something against me being sure of my beliefs, yet you offer nothing whatsoever that would give me good reason to doubt my beliefs.

Are you sure the earth is round? Are you sure 2 and 2 is 4? Are you sure you exist? If you are sure then how dare you not be open to reconsidering your position on such questions! How dare you be so closed minded!!! ;)

But if you are not sure, well then I must caution you that if you remain so open minded as to not be able to affirm the above that you may be in danger of having your brain fall out of your skull!!!

I freely admit I could be wrong about my lack of belief in Gods.

What about you, is there any chance you could be wrong about your belief in God?
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Is it my fault that the arguments against my beliefs proferred by atheists are found to be unconvincing?

You take no issue with rejecting what you deem unconvincing. Do you deny me the right?
That's not the point. There is nothing that an atheist could say that you would convince you to reconsider your beliefs. That's the point.
Your responses are like every other atheist I have dealt with. You want me to doubt and question my beliefs because you have something against me being sure of my beliefs, yet you offer nothing whatsoever that would give me good reason to doubt my beliefs.
It is disingenuous for you to demand that the atheist provide "good reasons to doubt your beliefs" when, in reality, you are not open to having your beliefs questioned. You have insulated your religious beliefs from scrutiny.
 
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bhsmte

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That's not the point. There is nothing that an atheist could say that you would convince you to reconsider your beliefs. That's the point.

It is disingenuous for you to demand that the atheist provide "good reasons to doubt your beliefs" when, in reality, you are not open to having your beliefs questioned. You have insulated your beliefs from scrutiny.

What you state, are just common defense mechanisms that are constructed, to protect a belief. And what sort of beliefs need protection? Typically one's that are vulnerable to objective scrutiny. If a belief could stand up to objective scrutiny, these defense mechanisms, starting with (I could never be wrong), would not be required.

In my time on this site, I have asked many Christians if there is any chance they could be wrong about their beliefs and the vast majority of the time, they reply, no, there is no chance. At the same time, I have rarely seen a non believer claim; there is no chance they could be wrong about their non belief.

From a psychological standpoint, it is not rocket science to figure out why this is the case.
 
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Chriliman

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It is disingenuous for you to demand that the atheist provide "good reasons to doubt your beliefs" when, in reality, you are not open to having your beliefs questioned. You have insulated your religious beliefs from scrutiny.

Have you ever considered that its not us who is insulating our beliefs from scrutiny, but rather live and active truth that is insulating our beliefs from scrutiny?

Hebrews 4:12
"For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart."
 
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anonymous person

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That's not the point. There is nothing that an atheist could say that you would convince you to reconsider your beliefs. That's the point.

It is disingenuous for you to demand that the atheist provide "good reasons to doubt your beliefs" when, in reality, you are not open to having your beliefs questioned. You have insulated your religious beliefs from scrutiny.

Here is wisdom:

Watch over your heart with all diligence,
For from it flow the springs of life.

24Put away from you a deceitful mouth
And put devious speech far from you.

25Let your eyes look directly ahead
And let your gaze be fixed straight in front of you.

26Watch the path of your feet
And all your ways will be established.

27Do not turn to the right nor to the left;
Turn your foot from evil.


Somewhere along the way, you failed to do this. You did not watch over your heart and allowed the enemy to sow seeds of doubt in you. I am sure you are familiar with the parable of the sower.

Now you who once were a Christian are standing on the other side. Something happened to you, something took place in your life. It might have been something you read, a thought that came to you one day, something you heard or saw that caused you to start doubting and caused you to start looking for a reason not to believe anymore.

Yes, I do insulate and protect my beliefs because there are those that would have me doubt them and give them up. Satan is a liar and a deceiver and he is very clever.
 
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Chriliman

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And how does one determine if someone meets this criteria?

If one admits when they're wrong and admits when they've done wrong and realizes who it is they've actually wronged and asks for forgiveness. You can continue to do wrong in the eyes of men and in end your wrongs will not matter, but you cannot continue to do wrong in the eyes of God, eventually if you're wise you will ask for forgiveness and accept the gift of eternal life made possible by sacrifice and resurrection of Jesus Christ or you won't.

I'm not trying to preach to you, you asked and I'm answering based on what I believe to be true.
 
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