[PERMANENTLY CLOSED] When should we change our reasoning / beliefs?

[paulm50]

I'm just getting to the point about what your claims about God's perfect plan for salvation inevitably allude to. Your trying to poke holes in a plan that we Christians are claiming is perfect because it was enacted by a perfect God. The fact that you're trying to poke holes in a perfect plan, informs me that you think we should actually know what a perfect God would do with imperfect humans, thereby you're indirectly suggesting that you know better than a perfect God, suggesting that you're better than or equal to a perfect God. And I just find this interesting because this is exactly what satan was banished from heaven for thinking. Let me be perfectly clear that in no way am I calling you satan, I'm just pointing out how your claims relate to what Christians believe to be the true cause of evil.

So in fact your claims only strengthen my faith and inform me that evil does in fact still have a strong grip on this world. As an imperfect sinner still stuck in this imperfect sinful world, all I can do is pray that Jesus will take action through my action and destroy all evil within those that He loves. Of course I have the upmost confidence that eventually He will, it just takes time.

Maybe it is a perfect plan, to god.

Given the evidence of what the god concept is used for. It would be like the "Hunger Games" a giant Coliseum for the gods to watch down from and see the mayhem we create in their names. So why would they stop it and lose their entertainment.

As for what it says in any religious books. The show wouldn't exist without those books.

As for confidence the gods will change anything, given the history and time. What are the odds?

 

[Chriliman]

Maybe it is a perfect plan, to god.

Given the evidence of what the god concept is used for. It would be like the "Hunger Games" a giant Coliseum for the gods to watch down from and see the mayhem we create in their names. So why would they stop it and lose their entertainment.

As for what it says in any religious books. The show wouldn't exist without those books.

As for confidence the gods will change anything, given the history and time. What are the odds?

Isaiah 45:9
"What sorrow awaits those who argue with their Creator. Does a clay pot argue with its maker? Does the clay dispute with the one who shapes it, saying, 'Stop, you're doing it wrong!' Does the pot exclaim, 'How clumsy can you be?'"

The only advice I have left for you is to just pick up a Bible and start studying it and let it speak to your heart. The scriptures are there for your benefit, read them! Scriptures are not for the righteous, they are for the sinners and we all are sinners.

 

[paulm50]

I understand that you think I've descended into preaching, but the fact that you think this has no effect on truth. I'm sure you can agree with that statement, unless of course you think you define truth.

As a salesman I was taught a prospective customer has to be shown value in the product. Preaching we are right, we see something others don't, we understand, we have hope things will get better. Isn't selling, it's boasting. It's putting a sector above the rest. With the rest sitting their scratching their heads thinking the is an "Emperor's Clothes story.

Sell benefits we perceive as benefits, not invisible clothes.

Benefits of being a Christian are;

Make a list.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

We are open to be convinced.

Convince us.

Go.

Shoot.

Have at it.

Why is Jesus not God incarnate?

Why are we wrong about the universe being created by God?

Why should we adopt your beliefs and abandon ours.

We are all ears.

Hang on, are you open to be convinced? As I recall, you indicated that you know your beliefs to be true primarily because of the "inner witness of the holy spirit." If you are like Craig, then you regard this "inner witness" as incontrovertible, in which case nothing I could say would ever be enough to prompt you to reconsider your religious beliefs.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I understand this what you think, but lets be reasonable here. Isn't it more reasonable to believe a truth claim that someone finds to make sense, rather than to believe someone who isn't even making a truth claim and can't seem to give a reason as to why they aren't making a truth claim?

If you don't agree with the above, then I'm left thinking that you are being unreasonable on purpose.

I have no idea what you're talking about it here.

 

[Chriliman]

I have no idea what you're talking about it here.

Lets say Bill tells you something that makes perfect sense to you, since it makes perfect sense to you doesn't this mean you believe Bill?

Now lets say Sam is saying that what Bill is saying isn't true, but Sam doesn't have a good reason to explain why what Bill is saying isn't true. Does this mean your going to believe Sam over Bill, when what Bill is saying actually makes sense to you?

Don't over think it, its not that complicated. Just try to answer honestly.

 

[paulm50]

Isaiah 45:9
"What sorrow awaits those who argue with their Creator. Does a clay pot argue with its maker? Does the clay dispute with the one who shapes it, saying, 'Stop, you're doing it wrong!' Does the pot exclaim, 'How clumsy can you be?'"

The only advice I have left for you is to just pick up a Bible and start studying it and let it speak to your heart. The scriptures are there for your benefit, read them! Scriptures are not for the righteous, they are for the sinners and we all are sinners.

I can ask the maker of the clay pot, if it's good. I can bring it back if it falls apart. All I can do with any god is listen to myself, or wait till I did. Sell me the benefits of religion.

As I said without the books to quote from, no organization can exist.

We are open to be convinced. Convince us. Go.
Shoot. Have at it. Why is Jesus not God incarnate?

As a Jewish carpenter from a small town in Israel, his goal was to bring the Jews back to the basis of Judaism or convert them. As a god he failed that mission. He inspired others to take his name and adapt Judaism into a new religion that was picked up by Constantine as the New Roman Religion. Constantine made more of an impact on Christians.

Why are we wrong about the universe being created by God? Why should we adopt your beliefs and abandon ours. We are all ears.

Because Genesis is very wrong.
Why should we adopt your beliefs,as they start with fictional stories.
Hearing isn't the problem, it's about examining all the evidence, not limiting oneself to one book. Designed to build a religion. so has as much validity as the Quran, Torah, Book of Mormon, Dianetics, etc. Validity is tested by examining the real facts outside books of propaganda. If one only bases one's knowledge on Mein Kampf, the slaughter of 6 million plus, in death camps seems logical.

 

[anonymous person]

As a salesman I was taught a prospective customer has to be shown value in the product. Preaching we are right, we see something others don't, we understand, we have hope things will get better. Isn't selling, it's boasting. It's putting a sector above the rest. With the rest sitting their scratching their heads thinking the is an "Emperor's Clothes story.

Sell benefits we perceive as benefits, not invisible clothes.

Benefits of being a Christian are;

Make a list.

Would you consider reconciliation with God a benefit?

How about a personal relationship with God?

How about being set free from the bond age of sin?

Eternal life?

Joy?

Assurance of God's love?

Discipline and correction when in error?

I can think of several hundred off the top of my head.

Hang on, are you open to be convinced? As I recall, you indicated that you know your beliefs to be true primarily because of the "inner witness of the holy spirit." If you are like Craig, then you regard this "inner witness" as incontrovertible, in which case nothing I could say would ever be enough to prompt you to reconsider your religious beliefs.

Pretend I didn't say that.

Or convince those reading these posts that may never respond. Convince the audience.

Now convince us. Answer the questions I asked.

Maybe if you are convincing enough I will accept what you say as truth.

 

[paulm50]

Lets say Bill tells you something that makes perfect sense to you, since it makes perfect sense to you doesn't this mean you believe Bill?

Now lets say Sam is saying that what Bill is saying isn't true, but Sam doesn't have a good reason to explain why what Bill is saying isn't true. Does this mean your going to believe Sam over Bill, when what Bill is saying actually makes sense to you?

Don't over think it, its not that complicated. Just try to answer honestly.

What if Bill says something that on examination is wrong. Even though Sam shows proof it's wrong. Does that mean you believe Bill over Sam's evidence?

Don't over think it, it's not that complicated. Just try to answer honestly.

You're always starting from the point that you know something we don't. When examined, we see Genesis is wrong, Jesus came to save the Jews, Paul and Peter took his message and shaped it, Constantine did a lot more shaping and for 1400 years, it's been enforced on pain of death. Islam is still being enforced on pain of death in many places.

 

[anonymous person]

I can ask the maker of the clay pot, if it's good. I can bring it back if it falls apart. All I can do with any god is listen to myself, or wait till I did. Sell me the benefits of religion.

As I said without the books to quote from, no organization can exist.
As a Jewish carpenter from a small town in Israel, his goal was to bring the Jews back to the basis of Judaism or convert them. As a god he failed that mission. He inspired others to take his name and adapt Judaism into a new religion that was picked up by Constantine as the New Roman Religion. Constantine made more of an impact on Christians. Because Genesis is very wrong.
Why should we adopt your beliefs,as they start with fictional stories.
Hearing isn't the problem, it's about examining all the evidence, not limiting oneself to one book. Designed to build a religion. so has as much validity as the Quran, Torah, Book of Mormon, Dianetics, etc. Validity is tested by examining the real facts outside books of propaganda. If one only bases one's knowledge on Mein Kampf, the slaughter of 6 million plus, in death camps seems logical.

You're very wrong.

See how easy that is?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Pretend I didn't say that.

Pretend you didn't say that? But you did say that. To pretend otherwise would be disingenuous. Don't tell me that you are open to be convinced when you are really hiding an "intrinsic defeater-defeater" up your sleeve. You're essentially asking me to pretend that you're not going to cheat by playing your "inner witness" card.

Or convince those reading these posts that may never respond. Convince the audience.

You want to turn this into a GA thread, thereby closing it down?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Lets say Bill tells you something that makes perfect sense to you, since it makes perfect sense to you doesn't this mean you believe Bill?

No. Bill could say something that makes sense, but isn't true. He could say "I have the Hope diamond in my pocket." That sentence makes sense, but it probably isn't true.

Now lets say Sam is saying that what Bill is saying isn't true, but Sam doesn't have a good reason to explain why what Bill is saying isn't true. Does this mean your going to believe Sam over Bill, when what Bill is saying actually makes sense to you?

If Sam is asking Bill to substantiate his claim (that Bill has the Hope diamond in his pocket), then I'm inclined to agree with Sam. Bill should be able to produce evidence.

 

[paulm50]

Would you consider reconciliation with God a benefit? How about a personal relationship with God? How about being set free from the bond age of sin? Eternal life? Joy? Assurance of God's love? Discipline and correction when in error? I can think of several hundred off the top of my head..

A feature is a relationship with god. A Benefit is eternal life.

How do I have a relationship with something I can't see, understand and is probably me talking to myself? I have a great relationship with my dog, better one with my wife, teenage daughter, well she's in those difficult years.
As for eternal life which is a benefit. Who do I talk to who has this benefit?

Benefit of joining a church are, a superior feeling one understands something others don't. Belonging to a club so social benefits of like minded people, having somewhere to go on a Sunday morning.

The downsides are. Thinking one's a sinner, getting a feeling of guilt when looking at a beautiful woman, having sex for the sake of pleasure, being a woman, being conceived and born, not being good enough to make the grade of Heaven, giving money to a church. Over the years there have been more. Many we have dropped, even though they're written in the bible.

 

[Chriliman]

No. Bill could say something that makes sense, but isn't true. He could say "I have the Hope diamond in my pocket." That sentence makes sense, but it probably isn't true.

If Sam is asking Bill to substantiate his claim (that Bill has the Hope diamond in his pocket), then I'm inclined to agree with Sam. Bill should be able to produce evidence.

And you did what I asked you not to do. You over thought it. Let me bring it back to a more simplified version.

If Bill is telling you something that makes perfect sense to you, you'd be silly to assume that what he's saying isn't true, instead you'd be intelligent in asking bill questions about his claim in order to obtain more truth. If there comes a point in your questioning when what Bill is saying no longer makes sense to you, you are then justified in thinking that Bill could be wrong, but if that point never comes then you are justified in believing Bill until he begins to say things that don't make sense, but if that never happens then Bill is eternal truth. In other words Bill would be God. So when someone truly finds God, they can inquire about anything and the answer always makes sense and will make sense for eternity. Is this an acceptable explanation of God?

Oh btw, Sam is satan.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

And you did what I asked you not to do. You over thought it.

Requesting evidence is "overthinking" it?

If Bill is telling you something that makes perfect sense to you, you'd be silly to assume that what he's saying isn't true, instead you'd be intelligent in asking bill questions about his claim in order to obtain more truth. If there comes a point in your questioning when what Bill is saying no longer makes sense to you, you are then justified in thinking that Bill could be wrong, but if that point never comes then you are justified in believing Bill until he begins to say things that don't make sense, but if that never happens then Bill is eternal truth. In other words Bill would be God. So when someone truly finds God, they can inquire about anything and the answer always makes sense and will make sense for eternity. Is this an acceptable explanation of God?

Oh btw, Sam is satan.

You're "simplified" version is already complicated: in this analogy, Bill is apparently God and Sam is Satan. So you're already assuming the existence of the very entities in question.

 

[Chriliman]

Requesting evidence is "overthinking" it?

You're "simplified" version is already complicated: in this analogy, Bill is apparently God and Sam is Satan. So you're already assuming the existence of the very entities in question.

Your either saying that truth really shouldn't be expected to make sense and therefore can never really be understood by humans or you're assuming that truth can't possibly come from God.

So which is it? <honest question expecting honest answer

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Your either saying that truth really shouldn't be expected to make sense and therefore can never really be understood by humans or you're assuming that truth can't possibly come from God.

So which is it? <honest question expecting honest answer

No, that's not what I'm saying at all.

 

[bhsmte]

Requesting evidence is "overthinking" it?

You're "simplified" version is already complicated: in this analogy, Bill is apparently God and Sam is Satan. So you're already assuming the existence of the very entities in question.

Requesting of evidence is going to be negatively labeled, because they have none.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Requesting of evidence is going to be negatively labeled, because they have none.

Reminds me of something Michio Kaku said regarding religious claims about an afterlife: "Remarkable claims require remarkable proof. But maybe you don't need proof. Well, I do."

 

[Chriliman]

No, that's not what I'm saying at all.

And this is the problem I run into with athiests. Avoiding questions and contradicting themselves without realizing it.

If you think truth should reasonably make sense and that truth does not originate from any single human mind, then isn't it reasonable to believe that truth would come from beyond the human mind, but somehow also be capable of making sense to the human mind? If you believe this then it seems reasonable that truth is actually pursuing human minds, since human minds have no control over truth, yet somehow human minds are able to comprehend truth.