[PERMANENTLY CLOSED] Outed

[Archaeopteryx]

I grew up very religious and so I've found that most people assume that I am still religious. Most people are taken aback when I tell them otherwise and some even express their disappointment that I've "fallen away," to use their words. I've never been outed as an atheist, but I've also never felt the need to advertise that fact, unless someone specifically asks. This is mostly out of politeness: most people couldn't care less about my views on religion, so I don't wear them on my sleeve.

The Openly Secular campaign prompted me to reconsider this position somewhat. Many atheists feel completely isolated in their nonbelief, particularly those in the process of leaving a religion. It helps to know that there are others going through a similar journey. Making one's nonbelief known to family and friends may also help to combat the various stigmatising misconceptions believers hold regarding atheists. This smoothes the rough edges of the discourse, allowing a more civil conversation on religion to take place. It also dispels the crude notion that religion is not a topic for polite conversation, or that expressing disagreement with religiously based claims is somehow "impolite" or even "offensive." In other words, it ensures that religion is not placed on a pedestal. It's not out of bounds.

That said, there are still various reasons why an individual might be reluctant to share their nonbelief openly. In some cases, doing so carries the risk of adverse social repercussions in terms of family and work relationships.

However, sometimes it is completely out of one's hands. Sometimes, nonbelievers are outed, and that's what this thread is about. Have you ever been outed as an atheist? Perhaps you inadvertently outed yourself when you didn't mean to or perhaps someone else outed you. What were the social consequences, if any, from having your nonbelief made known? Would you rather that it stayed a secret?

 

[seashale76]

Speaking as someone that knows a lot of atheists in real life, it has had no impact on how I interact with them. I don't talk about church with them, but that's about it. I even know some people that think other people don't know, but little do they know that other people sometimes do. I keep it to myself.

A specific instance: I had a friend years ago that was very outspoken as an anti-theist (on the Internet). In real life, he was no such thing. It was merely by chance that I came across some posts of his on an atheist website, actually. I never said anything to him about it. If he wanted to think his secret was safe, who was I to disabuse him of that notion?

 

[graceandpeace]

I'm not an atheist, but my church (Episcopal Church) calls me to respect the dignity of every person. So, I seek to treat others, regardless of their beliefs, the same. I don't mind a friendly conversation about religion with people who have different beliefs.

 

[GracetotheHumble]

I am praying for you that you will come to Christ. As many as he loves he rebukes and chastens. May he bring you back from your wandering into the sheep fold.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Speaking as someone that knows a lot of atheists in real life, it has had no impact on how I interact with them. I don't talk about church with them, but that's about it. I even know some people that think other people don't know, but little do they know that other people sometimes do. I keep it to myself.

A specific instance: I had a friend years ago that was very outspoken as an anti-theist (on the Internet). In real life, he was no such thing. It was merely by chance that I came across some posts of his on an atheist website, actually. I never said anything to him about it. If he wanted to think his secret was safe, who was I to disabuse him of that notion?

Do you think there was a specific reason he was so outspoken online and not AFK?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I am praying for you that you will come to Christ. As many as he loves he rebukes and chastens. May he bring you back from your wandering into the sheep fold.

"Not all those who wander are lost." - J.R.R. Tolkien

 

[seashale76]

Do you think there was a specific reason he was so outspoken online and not AFK?

This was around fifteen years ago now. Probably because he was more introverted, tbh. I do recall the only thing he mentioned on-line was that his girlfriend at the time got a job teaching in a private Catholic school and that there were issues because she thought she should still be able to teach there without having to sign whatever they have to sign that stated she agreed with Catholicism. I'm pretty sure the two of them had disagreements over it- as he didn't seem to think she should bother working there anyway. He repeatedly talked about how much he liked our city overall and that he thought it was a good place to raise a family.

I have known an awful lot of atheists that are 'out' over the years.

 

[GracetotheHumble]

"Not all those who wander are lost." - J.R.R. Tolkien

Without Jesus Christ you are lost.

 

[Gordon Wright]

For what it's worth, I'm not the least bit shocked when church kids "fall away." Kids who grow up in that environment tend to be sheltered and without strong roots. They have no real faith of their own, but live on borrowed faith. They read the Bible - or rather, have it read at them - but they don't understand it because they haven't the life experience to relate it to. Without life experience, scripture is just bedtime stories, happy talk and abstractions.

It's an aspect of what I call the Cult of the Family - the notion that instead of going out and making disciples you should stay home and try to breed them.

You can't be raised a Christian. Real faith just doesn't work that way. You have to come to your own convictions, or else it's just indoctrination.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

For what it's worth, I'm not the least bit shocked when church kids "fall away." Kids who grow up in that environment tend to be sheltered and without strong roots. They have no real faith of their own, but live on borrowed faith. They read the Bible - or rather, have it read at them - but they don't understand it because they haven't the life experience to relate it to. Without life experience, scripture is just bedtime stories, happy talk and abstractions.

It's an aspect of what I call the Cult of the Family - the notion that instead of going out and making disciples you should stay home and try to breed them.

You can't be raised a Christian. Real faith just doesn't work that way. You have to come to your own convictions, or else it's just indoctrination.

You seem to be assuming that "church kids" don't take their faith as seriously as those with so-called "life experience." I can't speak for all "church kids" but, in my experience, I went to church because I wanted to go. After a while, my parents no longer attended. I was there every weekend because I wanted to be there. I prayed every evening, not because my parents demanded or encouraged it (they didn't), but because I felt the urge to pray. I read the Bible because I wanted to know "God's Word," not because my parents wanted me to know it. When I say "I grew up very religious," I don't mean to suggest that the religiosity was forced on me by my family.

 

[anonymous person]

Archaeopteryx, if this question in your eyes is off topic then I do not want you to answer it.

The question I have is:

What took place in your life that gave you cause to call yourself a Christian?

In other words, at one point you did not see yourself as such but then something took place and you did.

What happened?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Archaeopteryx, if this question in your eyes is off topic then I do not want you to answer it.

The question I have is:

What took place in your life that gave you cause to call yourself a Christian when you first saw yourself as such?

I don't recall the precise moment I first considered myself a "Christian," just as I don't recall the precise moment when I stopped being one. I considered myself a Christian because I believed, as Christians do, that there was a God, that Jesus Christ was God incarnate, and that he had come into the world to save it. My aspiration then was to reflect God's glory in whatever way I could, and this prompted me to study the tenets of my faith more intimately and to consider the possibility of studying theology formally. I wanted to know more about the beliefs I had committed myself to. This was deeply personal for me. I wanted to know.

 

[Gordon Wright]

I don't recall the precise moment I first considered myself a "Christian," just as I don't recall the precise moment when I stopped being one.

There are many who drift back and forth between two tendencies. When belief is simply an emotional and/or intellectual thing, then belief is subject to such perambulations.

Faith is much more than belief. It is something deeper. It can't be taught or imparted. It must be chosen. Someone who speaks of being raised in the faith does not understand what faith is.

 

[Gordon Wright]

You seem to be assuming that "church kids" don't take their faith as seriously as those with so-called "life experience." .

There are many levels of seriousness, and many ways of taking something seriously.

The key is self awareness. Until you correctly understand how and why you believed, you can never correctly understand why you stopped believing.

If you come back permanently to believing, your belief will be of a very different nature than before. If you do not change your way of believing, then you can not come back permanently to belief.

You kept at it for a while after your parents gave up. Not every church kid does that. But you only kept up for a while. Was that faith, or merely some kind of inertia?

 

[anonymous person]

I don't recall the precise moment I first considered myself a "Christian," just as I don't recall the precise moment when I stopped being one.

Every born again believer, including myself, can tell you the precise moment when they were regenerated because such an encounter is the most remarkable moment of a person's life. It is a supernatural experience. Whenever a man has a personal encounter with God, they become undone and acutely aware of their sinfulness and their need for forgiveness.

From what you have said, it does not seem you have had such an encounter.

I considered myself a Christian because I believed, as Christians do, that there was a God, that Jesus Christ was God incarnate, and that he had come into the world to save it.

The demons also believe this, and tremble. Thus, a mere intellectual assent to the above propositions is not sufficient to secure one's salvation.

My aspiration then was to reflect God's glory in whatever way I could, and this prompted me to study the tenets of my faith more intimately and to consider the possibility of studying theology formally.

Your aspirations were commendable, but they were aspirations which sprang forth from your carnal, fleshly nature because you were attempting to please God with your own strength. These works you thought would be glorifying to God are indicative of a mentality which views works as something that God would be pleased with. However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. For Jesus was asked, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?" Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

Jesus here is not speaking of some mere intellectual assent to His claims of divinity, but rather a complete and total trust in Him and Him alone for the remission of their sins, a living and vital trust which bridges that gap between the head and the heart.

I wanted to know more about the beliefs I had committed myself to. This was deeply personal for me. I wanted to know.

This too is a commendable aspiration and I thank you for your earnestness. It cannot be emphasized enough that what God wants from you is not a striving and working and laboring, but a rest, a trust, and a complete openness to His Son Jesus. For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. Then you will call on me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you. You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. I will be found by you,” declares the Lord.


Thank you Archaeopteryx for your earnest reply.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Every born again believer, including myself, can tell you the precise moment when they were regenerated because such an encounter is the most remarkable moment of a person's life. It is a supernatural experience. Whenever a man has a personal encounter with God, they become undone and acutely aware of their sinfulness and their need for forgiveness.

And I've had many such experiences, which is why I cannot pinpoint the precise moment I first considered myself a "Christian." Was it the first time that I thought I had "a personal encounter with God" and became "aware of my sinfulness," or was it the second, the third, the fourth, etc? There is no single salient moment that I can pin my Christianity down to because there was more than one salient moment.

From what you have said, it does not seem you have had such an encounter.

A genuine encounter with the divine? No, I don't think so. The point is that I believed that I did have such an encounter just as strongly as many Christians do.

The demons also believe this, and tremble. Thus, a mere intellectual assent to the above propositions is not sufficient to secure one's salvation.

I didn't imply "a mere intellectual assent." I indicated, in the next sentence in fact, that my commitment went further that.

Your aspirations were commendable, but they were aspirations which sprang forth from your carnal, fleshly nature because you were attempting to please God with your own strength.

You know what's amusing about this? You only say this because I am a former Christian. If a Christian came to you and said that they wanted "to reflect God's glory in any way that they could," you wouldn't call it "carnal" or "fleshy." How could it be carnal to want to reflect God's glory as opposed one's own? If they told you they wanted to study theology to grasp the faith more intimately, perhaps as a means of drawing closer to the divine, you wouldn't call their efforts "carnal." You would encourage them in the pursuit. Yet when someone who once believed tells you such things your attitude shifts abruptly: what was a noble desire in the Christian becomes a worldly one in the ex-Christian.

These works you thought would be glorifying to God are indicative of a mentality which views works as something that God would be pleased with.

I never claimed to view my works as something that would please God. I always saw my worship as horribly insufficient, regardless of what form it took.

This too is a commendable aspiration and I thank you for your earnestness. It cannot be emphasized enough that what God wants from you is not a striving and working and laboring, but a rest, a trust, and a complete openness to His Son Jesus. For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. Then you will call on me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you. You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. I will be found by you,” declares the Lord.

I didn't say that I thought God wanted me to "strive and labour." I said that I did. I wanted to learn and to understand. "Faith seeking understanding" was something I took seriously.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

There are many levels of seriousness, and many ways of taking something seriously.

The key is self awareness. Until you correctly understand how and why you believed, you can never correctly understand why you stopped believing.

I do understand why I stopped believing. When I examined my Christian beliefs closely, I found that they were not well justified.

If you come back permanently to believing, your belief will be of a very different nature than before. If you do not change your way of believing, then you can not come back permanently to belief.

When I was a Christian, I was sure that that would be permanent. I was wrong.

You kept at it for a while after your parents gave up. Not every church kid does that. But you only kept up for a while. Was that faith, or merely some kind of inertia?

I kept it up independently because I actually believed it and because it was important to me.

 

[madera23]

[QUOTis="Gordon Wright, post: 68386326, member: 376333"]For what it's worth, I'm not the least bit shocked when church kids "fall away." Kids who grow up in that environment tend to be sheltered and without strong roots. They have no real faith of their own, but live on borrowed faith. They read the Bible - or rather, have it read at them - but they don't understand it because they haven't the life experience to relate it to. Without life experience, scripture is just bedtime stories, happy talk and abstractions.

you are so right. It usually is lifes experiences that draw us to God. Otherwise it is just religion.


It's an aspect of what I call the Cult of the Family - the notion that instead of going out and making disciples you should stay home and try to breed them.

You can't be raised a Christian. Real faith just doesn't work that way. You have to come to your own convictions, or else it's just indoctrination.[/QUOTE]
That Is beautiful. One has to find it on their own or it is empty intellectual religion.

 

[Gordon Wright]

I do understand why I stopped believing. When I examined my Christian beliefs closely, I found that they were not well justified.

Meaning you hadn't examined them closely before?

The time to examine something closely is before you embrace it, not after.

 

[LovelyGiselle]

Without Jesus Christ you are lost.