Perhaps you can answer?

[Ekemet]

Hello, first a little story on myself.

I'm born and raised in Arkansas. Both my parents are Christian along with a majority of the people in this town. I considered myself a Christian until about three years ago. As I had grown older, I started asking myself more questions about Christianity, morality, ethics, and God. Eventually I left Christianity and started looking for a religion I can understand and accept. I've studied hundreds, from Jainism to Wicca. All of which have proven to be a waste of time and effort. My family and friends have been pressuring me to switch back, so I figured why not give Jesus another shot. I need some things answered before I'm willing to accept Christ. I've talked with many, many, many people about these topics and none so far have provided any sense able responses.

The cruelty of Hell

This is what first threw me off the path of Christ and is my most important question. Why would God send ANYONE to hell? Of all the moral teaching God has bestowed on us, does this not strike anyone else as infinitely cruel and evil?

People tell me 'Well the sinners need to be punished' and alike phrases. That I can understand, if we need to be punished...But for eternity? People do not seem to grasp the scope of the word 'eternity'. Does any man, woman, or child deserve that? Even a person as evil as Hitler? To be tortured forever?

People tell me in church 'God loves you', people tell me at home 'God loves you', people tell me at work 'God loves you', people tell me on the street 'God loves you'. Well if my punishment for making a mistake on earth is eternal torture than I would have to call them liars.


What makes Christianity more true than any other religion? Where is Proof of the Christian God?


Why not Islam or Hindu? How can you possibly prove that Christianity is the truth and all other religions are false? Offer the Bible as the truth? It was written by man and I don't trust people I don't know. Why not the Qur'an or the Book of Mormon? What makes it less true? Hell, I could write a book and tell people God told me to write it down. What would happen if I did that? People would call me a nutter.

The common answer I hear is 'faith'. Which is just a slap in the face to me. It's not enough I believe in God, but I have to believe in him when every ounce of my logic, reason, morality, and heart tell me not to. I could have faith in the cookie monster, why can't he be God? At least you can SEE him. God offers us no proof he exists. People mistake coincidence and misunderstanding as proof of God. This is not definite enough for me.

Do not take me for some fool who expects all the answers and gives no faith or attempted understanding. I have tried to get in touch with God on my own. I've been studying the bible, praying, and trying to understand. I honestly want to believe. Believe that when I die a greater life awaits me...that all life will be sunshine and roses. I was even so desperate as to pray for a dream to let God tell me what needed to be said. But not even that, not even a dream. Not a sign, not anything.


I'm destined to go to Hell


If God truly dose know everything, then he knows where I'm going and chooses not to stop me. Quite unkind, to create me for the purpose of torturing me forever.

God knew, before he created me: What choices I would make in life, what I would think about him, what I would have for breakfast on 4/05/12, and weather or not I was going to Heaven or Hell. Why would a loving God do this? Why would he CURSE me with life if he knew my road would end in a fiery pit?


Really that is all I can think of at this moment, I'll be sure to post more questions if I remember any more. Thank you.

 

[InnocentOdion]

Hey there, Ekemet.
I'm glad that you decided to study many religions and not just dive into one as some people I know have. Some people will research every religion they can and pick one--as long as it isn't Christianity they don't mind, so I'm glad you're at least open minded.

I've studied religions as well, but none of them have been as fulfilling deep inside as Christianity.


Hell

The problem with hell, you see--is we're split between deciding whether or not hell is a literal place of torment, or just mere separation from God's Holy presence. The problem is that when someone sins, they are cutting themselves away from God. Everyone knows that lying, stealing, murdering and insulting God (whether they believe in Him or not) are wrong. That is our God given conscience--our knowledge of what is right and what is wrong.

The wage of sin is death. When someone sins, they have offended the very God who has given them life, their family, everything. Yet, God has given a way out--Jesus, who took the punishment for our sins. He paid the fine, so to speak. Nobody can tell anyone that they haven't done a sin. Everyone has lied or stolen and everyone has lusted. The deal with sin is it makes you unholy, and nothing unholy can live with God yet Jesus died to make us clean again. It is by His blood being spilled that we are able to come back and live with God--if we ask Christ into our lives. We are not forced to, but if we don't, we aren't clean of sin.

The Holy Spirit calls us all the way through our lives to come to God, and when we have ignored it all through our life--this is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is not forgiven.

To me, being in hell forever is the same as being in prison for life--and I don't mean liberal Britain's "life = 25 years" policy; I mean life = until death.

So, the deal with hell is that:
1. They need to be forgiven of sins
2. Asking for Jesus to come into their life means that they have had their sins forgiven
3. Rejecting Christianity, once the person has died, means that they have done the unforgivable sin
4. Unclean, sinful people can't come into God's presence
5. God sends them away from Him

If the idea of a literal hell disturbs you, then ask yourself if it's really literal, or if it's really torment or just final death.


What makes Christianity special?

What makes Christianity so special is that we are saved by grace. Islam, Judaism, Mormonism, it is a religion based on what you do. If you're a 'good' person, you should get into Heaven. Muhammad even taught he wasn't sure what would happen to him. In Christianity we aren't saved by doing good things, although we should--but we're saved because God loves us enough to let us live with Him--also, Jesus is the only one who is is alive. Muhammad, Buddha, the gurus, they are all dead. Jesus died and rose again.

Going to hell
God didn't create you with the intention of going to hell. We have free will, yet God knows what will happen. Time is like sitting on a corner watching a parade go by (I heard this on TV the night before last ), yet God is outside of time, and He can see the whole thing happening.

It's not the tidiest way of explaining it, but it's your God given free will to chose whether or not you are going to come to Him. Only He knows where you will be, but the choice is yours to accept or decline Him.

I hope this helps a little.

 

[WarEagle]

People tell me in church 'God loves you', people tell me at home 'God loves you', people tell me at work 'God loves you', people tell me on the street 'God loves you'. Well if my punishment for making a mistake on earth is eternal torture than I would have to call them liars.

God does not send people to Hell for making a "mistake". God sends people to Hell because they've broken His laws.

Why not Islam or Hindu? How can you possibly prove that Christianity is the truth and all other religions are false?

Because we can look at the Bible and see that it is internally consistent, that it is historically accurate, that it has hundreds of prophecies that have come to pass, and that the claims of Christ are true.

Hell, I could write a book and tell people God told me to write it down. What would happen if I did that? People would call me a nutter.

Unless the claim is true.

The common answer I hear is 'faith'. Which is just a slap in the face to me. It's not enough I believe in God, but I have to believe in him when every ounce of my logic, reason, morality, and heart tell me not to. I could have faith in the cookie monster, why can't he be God? At least you can SEE him. God offers us no proof he exists. People mistake coincidence and misunderstanding as proof of God. This is not definite enough for me.

Look at the computer in front of you. Where did that come from?

I have tried to get in touch with God on my own. I've been studying the bible, praying, and trying to understand. I honestly want to believe. Believe that when I die a greater life awaits me...that all life will be sunshine and roses. I was even so desperate as to pray for a dream to let God tell me what needed to be said. But not even that, not even a dream. Not a sign, not anything.

But have you come to the realization that you're a sinner, seperated from God and an enemy of His, because of your sins? Have you repented of your sins? Have you come to the foot of the cross to cry out for mercy and put your faith in Christ and His atonement on you behalf?

You say you've been studying the Bible. What do you think of Romans 5-7?

If God truly dose know everything, then he knows where I'm going and chooses not to stop me. Quite unkind, to create me for the purpose of torturing me forever.

God made a way for you to be saved, reconciled to Him and forgiven, thus, avoiding Hell. If you choose not to follow Christ, that isn't God's fault.

God knew, before he created me: What choices I would make in life, what I would think about him, what I would have for breakfast on 4/05/12, and weather or not I was going to Heaven or Hell. Why would a loving God do this? Why would he CURSE me with life if he knew my road would end in a fiery pit?

Because you still have the choice to seek God or not. No one's life is set in stone. It is subject to the choices they make.

That God knows whether you'll go to Heaven or to Hell doesn't mean that you'll go to Hell. One day, you might come under the conviction of the Holy Spirit, repent, and give your life to Christ. If God knows who's going to Hell, then surely He must know who's going to be saved, too.

 

[salida]

Well, lets first talk about hell. Cruelty - No - its righteous judgement. God gave His Son Jesus who died for our sins. It is up to us to accept or reject. Its like seeing a person drowning and we hand them a branch- but they push it away and swim for the other branch that is 15 feet farther away. So, the person drowns swimming for that other branch. God won't force people to accept Him - this wouldn't be unconditional love - but brut force. He doesn't want robots in heaven.

He wants us to be in heaven with him on His terms - its not our terms since we didn't create the universe.

 

[salida]

Yes, there is overwhelming objective facts that support the Bible itself. Its the most true book in the world because of it. Also read the Evidence That Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell (it would stand up in court). And Examine the Evidence by Muncaster (a former athiest).

Biblical Evidence (Scratching the Surface Only)

Internal Evidences
Prophesies that are confirmed within Bible

- Life of Christ
The Tribe of Judah, Gen 49:10 - Luke 3:23-28
(Genesis was written 4004 BC to 1689 BC)
(Luke's time period is 60-70 AD)

Royal Line of David, Jer 23:5 -Matt 1:1
(Jeremiah 760 to 698 BC)/(Matthew 60-70 AD)

Born of a Virgin, Isaiah 7:14/Matt 1:18-23
(Isaiah 760 to 698 BC)/(60-70 AD)

**I can list at least 20 more of these.
-Rise of Empires
In the book of Daniel, Chapter 2 - four kingdoms are described in the interpretation of the dream of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greek - Daniel 8:21, 10:20) and a fourth great kingdom to follow - part iron and clay - which is the Roman Empire - during this empire Christ came and the church was established - Daniel 2:44.

-Historical Accuracy
The Bible is loaded with historical statements concerning events hundreds of years ago, yet has not been proven incorrect on any.
(Bible compared to other ancient documents):
New Testament - starts at 25 years - between original and first surviving copies
Homer - starts at 500 years
Demosthenes - at 1400 years
Plato - at 1200 years
Caesar - at 1000 years

Number of Manuscript Copies
New Testament - 5,686
Homer - 643
Demosthenes - 200
Plato - 7
Caesar - 10

Consistency
Written by at least 40 men over a period of time exceeding 1400 years, and has no internal inconsistencies.

Claim of Inspiration
It claims to be spoken by God, 2 Tim 3:16-17). No other religious book makes such claims.

External Evidences
(Prophesies Outside the Bible)
These cities were prophesied to be destroyed and never be built again.
Nineveh - Nahum 1:10, 3:7,15, Zephaniah 2:13-14
Babylon - Isaiah 13:1-22)
Tyre (Ezekiel 26:1-28)

Bible before Science
He hangs the earth on nothing - Job 26:7
(Job was written at least 1000 years ago - some scholars think it could be even 3000 years ago)
Note: Man only knew this for 350 years
Earth is a sphere, Isaiah 40:22
Air has weight, Job 28:25
Gravity - Job 26:7, Job 38:31-33
Winds blow in cyclones, Eccl 1:6

Documents that Prove Bible is True
Gilgamesh Epic, The Sumerian King List, Mari Tablets, Babylonian Chronicles

Archealogoical Finds
Excavations of Ur, Location of Zoar, Ziggurats and the foundation of Tower of Babel

 

[Ekemet]

Hell

The problem with hell, you see--is we're split between deciding whether or not hell is a literal place of torment, or just mere separation from God's Holy presence. The problem is that when someone sins, they are cutting themselves away from God. Everyone knows that lying, stealing, murdering and insulting God (whether they believe in Him or not) are wrong. That is our God given conscience--our knowledge of what is right and what is wrong.

The wage of sin is death. When someone sins, they have offended the very God who has given them life, their family, everything. Yet, God has given a way out--Jesus, who took the punishment for our sins. He paid the fine, so to speak. Nobody can tell anyone that they haven't done a sin. Everyone has lied or stolen and everyone has lusted. The deal with sin is it makes you unholy, and nothing unholy can live with God yet Jesus died to make us clean again. It is by His blood being spilled that we are able to come back and live with God--if we ask Christ into our lives. We are not forced to, but if we don't, we aren't clean of sin.

The Holy Spirit calls us all the way through our lives to come to God, and when we have ignored it all through our life--this is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is not forgiven.

To me, being in hell forever is the same as being in prison for life--and I don't mean liberal Britain's "life = 25 years" policy; I mean life = until death.

So, the deal with hell is that:
1. They need to be forgiven of sins
2. Asking for Jesus to come into their life means that they have had their sins forgiven
3. Rejecting Christianity, once the person has died, means that they have done the unforgivable sin
4. Unclean, sinful people can't come into God's presence
5. God sends them away from Him

If the idea of a literal hell disturbs you, then ask yourself if it's really literal, or if it's really torment or just final death.

If that's the case, then hell doesn't sound bad at all. It it still very unjust that God would reward those who guessed right and punish those who guessed wrong. And yes I do use the word 'guess'. What happens to people who grow up in a Hindu country? Or even people who have never heard of Christianity? I would imagine they would all still go to hell. From their point of view Christianity is a crazy fictional religion, while their own religion seems sane. People are going to believe that the religion they grew up with is the truth. Then when they die, they get a free trip to hell. Apparently the person is to blame for being brainwashed, living in a Hindu nation, and not accepting the crazy story of Christ.


What makes Christianity special?

What makes Christianity so special is that we are saved by grace. Islam, Judaism, Mormonism, it is a religion based on what you do. If you're a 'good' person, you should get into Heaven. Muhammad even taught he wasn't sure what would happen to him. In Christianity we aren't saved by doing good things, although we should--but we're saved because God loves us enough to let us live with Him--also, Jesus is the only one who is is alive. Muhammad, Buddha, the gurus, they are all dead. Jesus died and rose again.


That wasn't exactly an answer to my question....In order to accept what you just said I would have to accept the Bible and God as fact. Which as it stands now, I don't. I'm asking why should I believe the crazy stories of the Bible over the crazy stories of any holy book? Remember you are talking to a non-believer so evidence based on the Bible or God doesn't have much standing with me.

Going to hell
God didn't create you with the intention of going to hell. We have free will, yet God knows what will happen. Time is like sitting on a corner watching a parade go by (I heard this on TV the night before last ), yet God is outside of time, and He can see the whole thing happening.

It's not the tidiest way of explaining it, but it's your God given free will to chose whether or not you are going to come to Him. Only He knows where you will be, but the choice is yours to accept or decline Him.

I think he did create me with the intention of going to hell. Right before God made me, he knew exactly where I was going to go when I die. He knew I was going to hell, but he created me in spite of this knowledge. I may have made the choices, that's true, but that is not what I'm arguing. I'm saying it is cruel and evil to create a life that you know is going to hell. To live on earth for X amount of years then die and suffer in hell. I would prefer not to exist.

I hope this helps a little.

God does not send people to Hell for making a "mistake". God sends people to Hell because they've broken His laws.

When I said 'mistake' I meant in not believing in him. Sorry for not making that more clear.

Because we can look at the Bible and see that it is internally consistent, that it is historically accurate, that it has hundreds of prophecies that have come to pass, and that the claims of Christ are true.

Internally consistent? I think not. The Bible contradicts itself a numerous amount of time. If you don't mind, I would like to hear some of these 'hundreds of prophecies'.


Look at the computer in front of you. Where did that come from?

Office depot.



But have you come to the realization that you're a sinner, seperated from God and an enemy of His, because of your sins? Have you repented of your sins? Have you come to the foot of the cross to cry out for mercy and put your faith in Christ and His atonement on you behalf?

Yes and yes. Though I have not literally come to the foot of a cross.

You say you've been studying the Bible. What do you think of Romans 5-7?

Romans 5-7? Do you mean Romans 5:7 or Romans 1:5-7?


God made a way for you to be saved, reconciled to Him and forgiven, thus, avoiding Hell. If you choose not to follow Christ, that isn't God's fault.

I argue it is partly his fault. Obviously he does not care enough about me to give me some kind of a sign of truth. I'm not saying God has to chuck a bible at me out in the middle of nowhere and yell "Read it idiot!". I'm saying just give me something I can understand.

That God knows whether you'll go to Heaven or to Hell doesn't mean that you'll go to Hell. One day, you might come under the conviction of the Holy Spirit, repent, and give your life to Christ. If God knows who's going to Hell, then surely He must know who's going to be saved, too.

I agree, of course you didn't really answer my question. Saying that he knows who's going to be saved doesn't make the fact that he knows who was going to hell any better.

Well, lets first talk about hell. Cruelty - No - its righteous judgement. God gave His Son Jesus who died for our sins. It is up to us to accept or reject. Its like seeing a person drowning and we hand them a branch- but they push it away and swim for the other branch that is 15 feet farther away. So, the person drowns swimming for that other branch. God won't force people to accept Him - this wouldn't be unconditional love - but brut force. He doesn't want robots in heaven.

That isn't a very good analogy. I have a better one I think. Your drowning and someone gives you a life raft. You reach for it, but he pulls it away and then tells us. "If you want the raft you have to read "Harry Poter" and take it as fact. And you can't just SAY you take it as fact, you REALLY REALLY have to.

He wants us to be in heaven with him on His terms - its not our terms since we didn't create the universe.

Obviously he does no want us to be in heaven or else I would be a Christian right now.

Yes, there is overwhelming objective facts that support the Bible itself. Its the most true book in the world because of it. Also read the Evidence That Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell (it would stand up in court). And Examine the Evidence by Muncaster (a former athiest).

Josh McDowell? Hah I wouldn't call that evidence. You can find plenty of problems with what he said. As for Muncaster, most everything he claims is hearsay and assertion.

Biblical Evidence (Scratching the Surface Only)

Internal Evidences
Prophesies that are confirmed within Bible


- Life of Christ
The Tribe of Judah, Gen 49:10 - Luke 3:23-28
(Genesis was written 4004 BC to 1689 BC)
(Luke's time period is 60-70 AD)

Royal Line of David, Jer 23:5 -Matt 1:1
(Jeremiah 760 to 698 BC)/(Matthew 60-70 AD)

Born of a Virgin, Isaiah 7:14/Matt 1:18-23
(Isaiah 760 to 698 BC)/(60-70 AD)

Okay....I have no idea what you were just trying to say to me.
**I can list at least 20 more of these.
-Rise of Empires
In the book of Daniel, Chapter 2 - four kingdoms are described in the interpretation of the dream of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greek - Daniel 8:21, 10:20) and a fourth great kingdom to follow - part iron and clay - which is the Roman Empire - during this empire Christ came and the church was established - Daniel 2:44.

It isn't difficult to make 'prophecies' after they have already happened. The book of Daniel may have been written after the events occurred. There is good evidence of this; however there is also a little in favor of Christians. So I am still researching this(Daniel) at the moment.

-Historical Accuracy
The Bible is loaded with historical statements concerning events hundreds of years ago, yet has not been proven incorrect on any.

Keyword: 'yet'. I don't doubt the Bible has some historical accuracy. Most of the bible was written very very long ago. It would have been foolish not to write about what was going on at the time. You can not say: "Well something in the bible was proven true, therefor everything must be true". Else I would have to accept the Lord of the Rings as fact because the statement that grass is green is true.

(Bible compared to other ancient documents):
New Testament - starts at 25 years - between original and first surviving copies
Homer - starts at 500 years
Demosthenes - at 1400 years
Plato - at 1200 years
Caesar - at 1000 years

Number of Manuscript Copies
New Testament - 5,686
Homer - 643
Demosthenes - 200
Plato - 7
Caesar - 10

Consistency
Written by at least 40 men over a period of time exceeding 1400 years, and has no internal inconsistencies.

The Bible does have inconsistencies, it contradicts itself quite often. And not all of these contradictions can be blamed on mistranslation or being taken out of context.

Claim of Inspiration
It claims to be spoken by God, 2 Tim 3:16-17). No other religious book makes such claims.

I wrote my own little book awhile back(for reasons which I don't feel like getting into). I claimed it was the word of God.

External Evidences
(Prophesies Outside the Bible)
These cities were prophesied to be destroyed and never be built again.
Nineveh - Nahum 1:10, 3:7,15, Zephaniah 2:13-14
Babylon - Isaiah 13:1-22)
Tyre (Ezekiel 26:1-28)

Bible before Science
He hangs the earth on nothing - Job 26:7
(Job was written at least 1000 years ago - some scholars think it could be even 3000 years ago)
Note: Man only knew this for 350 years
Earth is a sphere, Isaiah 40:22
Air has weight, Job 28:25
Gravity - Job 26:7, Job 38:31-33
Winds blow in cyclones, Eccl 1:6

Isaiah 40:22 : A circle is not a sphere. The bible clearly states many times that the earth has 4 corners and sits atop pillars.

Job 28:25 : Who the hell ever said air was weightless? I don't recall anyone back then claiming that.

Ecclesiastes 1:6 : Is talking about wind patterns, it has nothing to do with cyclones.


Documents that Prove Bible is True
Gilgamesh Epic, The Sumerian King List, Mari Tablets, Babylonian Chronicles


Archealogoical Finds
Excavations of Ur, Location of Zoar, Ziggurats and the foundation of Tower of Babel

To prove something in the bible is true, is not to prove everything in the bible is true. There is truth in Harry Potter, but most would agree it is a fiction book.

 

[ebia]

Hello, first a little story on myself.

I'm born and raised in Arkansas. Both my parents are Christian along with a majority of the people in this town. I considered myself a Christian until about three years ago. As I had grown older, I started asking myself more questions about Christianity, morality, ethics, and God. Eventually I left Christianity and started looking for a religion I can understand and accept. I've studied hundreds, from Jainism to Wicca. All of which have proven to be a waste of time and effort. My family and friends have been pressuring me to switch back, so I figured why not give Jesus another shot. I need some things answered before I'm willing to accept Christ. I've talked with many, many, many people about these topics and none so far have provided any sense able responses.

The cruelty of Hell

This is what first threw me off the path of Christ and is my most important question. Why would God send ANYONE to hell? Of all the moral teaching God has bestowed on us, does this not strike anyone else as infinitely cruel and evil?

People tell me 'Well the sinners need to be punished' and alike phrases. That I can understand, if we need to be punished...But for eternity? People do not seem to grasp the scope of the word 'eternity'. Does any man, woman, or child deserve that? Even a person as evil as Hitler? To be tortured forever?

People tell me in church 'God loves you', people tell me at home 'God loves you', people tell me at work 'God loves you', people tell me on the street 'God loves you'. Well if my punishment for making a mistake on earth is eternal torture than I would have to call them liars.

I think you should try reading "The Great Divorce" (CS Lewis). Viewing "hell" as a punishment for sin isn't a terribly useful way of looking at it; "hell" (in so far as that itself is a useful term) is the inevitable consequence of not letting ourselves be redeemed and healed. Added to which, most people's picture of hell is built more on the medieval imagination of people like Dante than on what the bible says about the fate of those who don't accept Christ.

What makes Christianity more true than any other religion? Where is Proof of the Christian God?


Why not Islam or Hindu? How can you possibly prove that Christianity is the truth and all other religions are false? Offer the Bible as the truth? It was written by man and I don't trust people I don't know. Why not the Qur'an or the Book of Mormon? What makes it less true? Hell, I could write a book and tell people God told me to write it down. What would happen if I did that? People would call me a nutter.

The common answer I hear is 'faith'. Which is just a slap in the face to me. It's not enough I believe in God, but I have to believe in him when every ounce of my logic, reason, morality, and heart tell me not to. I could have faith in the cookie monster, why can't he be God? At least you can SEE him. God offers us no proof he exists. People mistake coincidence and misunderstanding as proof of God. This is not definite enough for me.

Do not take me for some fool who expects all the answers and gives no faith or attempted understanding. I have tried to get in touch with God on my own. I've been studying the bible, praying, and trying to understand. I honestly want to believe. Believe that when I die a greater life awaits me...that all life will be sunshine and roses. I was even so desperate as to pray for a dream to let God tell me what needed to be said. But not even that, not even a dream. Not a sign, not anything.

The first test of any religion should be "does it make sense of the world around us - does it adequately explain what is wrong (and what is right) with the world?" and "does it offer a solution?"

I'm destined to go to Hell


If God truly dose know everything, then he knows where I'm going and chooses not to stop me. Quite unkind, to create me for the purpose of torturing me forever.

That's a misunderstanding of the Christian idea of God. I'm not surprised you rejected that "God". I would too.

 

[FearGod]

First and foremost God said that the penalty of sin is DEATH. Now there are people out there that insist that the idea of a Hell of constant unending torment is all too real and many even claim to have visions and experiences of this. But let's think about this, if Hell was that extremely terrible wouldn't the Bible emphasize that just as much as the salvation? Hell really isn't mentioned that much. Now I'm not saying that Hell isn't real, it's definitely real, I just don't know exactly what it entails and how it effects each person. I have heard annihilationists even quote the innitial lie that the serpent told Eve in the Garden of Eden. "If you eat of the tree of the tree of life you shall not surely die." Jesus said that the ONLY way to eternal life was by believing in him. So if eternal consious torment in Hell is real wouldn't that make Hell eternal life? The argument that most people bring up is that he wasn't speaking of just physical life, but spiritual life meaning connection with God. I'm really not sure of either way but I can tell you that there is more assumption about Hell than there is written about it in the Bible. From my understanding of it, the Bible was written so that anyone could read and understand the full message. I can tell you that when I started reading through the New Testament for the first time, I got more of an assumption that Hell was a place of complete destruction rather than eternal living torment and that seems to fit better with the penalty for sin being death. The truth is I don't know and since I don't know I have no authority to declare my theory as truth. Think of it this way though, if your dog bites you one day do you kill it or just beat it sensless and leave it hanging on a thread of life? The anwer would be obvious to almost everyone. Now Godly justice and human justice are different obviously but what would endless torture even accomplish. Now I haven't read the whole Bible but I don't think God ever made anyone suffer but to teach them a lesson. What would be the point of teaching someone a lesson if they could never act on the change of heart? Now as I have basically just brought out a pretty much completely annihilationist viewpoint I would also like you to check out this website as it offers a view of Hell completely different from the one I just did. (Not allowed to link yet but this is sincere so I I don't think anyone'll mind "yourgoingtohelldotcom") Just because I want to believe that God doesn't let anyone suffer eternally doesn't make it true and I understand that there is nothing I can do but except the absolute truth as no one, man or demon, can change the will of God. All we can do is pray that he will show us the truth so that we can at least find less turmoil in solid truth. Oh yeah, and God wants our love more than anything according to his word and I don't recall anyone in the New Testament turning to God for fear of Hell, although I could be wrong someone please correct me if I am. I have read very little of the Old Testament so there may be some points that I have missed. Sorry that's so long. Here's hoping for ultimate peace for the eternal dead and the eternally alive but something tells me that's a false hope.

 

[WarEagle]

[quote]When I said 'mistake' I meant in not believing in him. Sorry for not making that more clear.[/quote]

And this would still be wrong. Nobody goes to Hell because they don't believe in Christ. They go to Hell as punishment for their sin.

Internally consistent? I think not. The Bible contradicts itself a numerous amount of time.

Hit me with your best three.

If you don't mind, I would like to hear some of these 'hundreds of prophecies'.

OK. Here are some specifically concerning Jesus:

His birthplace: Micah 5:2
The virgin birth: Isaiah 7:14
His tribe: Genesis 49:10
His entry into Jerusalem: Zechariah 9:9
That He would be betrayed by Judas: Psalm 41:9
His crucifixion: Zech 12:10 (this one is especially interesting since the Jews would not have been familiar with the Roman practice of crucifixion)
His resurrection: Psalm 16:10

Office depot.

Do you believe that it had a designer?

Yes and yes. Though I have not literally come to the foot of a cross.

How can you repent without the cross?

Romans 5-7? Do you mean Romans 5:7 or Romans 1:5-7?

Romans 5-7.

I argue it is partly his fault. Obviously he does not care enough about me to give me some kind of a sign of truth.

He's given you His word. He's given you the external witness of Creation. He became a man and dwelt among us.

 

[thinkfreelivefree]

First and foremost God said that the penalty of sin is DEATH. Now there are people out there that insist that the idea of a Hell of constant unending torment is all too real and many even claim to have visions and experiences of this. But let's think about this, if Hell was that extremely terrible wouldn't the Bible emphasize that just as much as the salvation? Hell really isn't mentioned that much. Now I'm not saying that Hell isn't real, it's definitely real, I just don't know exactly what it entails and how it effects each person. I have heard annihilationists even quote the innitial lie that the serpent told Eve in the Garden of Eden. "If you eat of the tree of the tree of life you shall not surely die." Jesus said that the ONLY way to eternal life was by believing in him. So if eternal consious torment in Hell is real wouldn't that make Hell eternal life? The argument that most people bring up is that he wasn't speaking of just physical life, but spiritual life meaning connection with God. I'm really not sure of either way but I can tell you that there is more assumption about Hell than there is written about it in the Bible. From my understanding of it, the Bible was written so that anyone could read and understand the full message. I can tell you that when I started reading through the New Testament for the first time, I got more of an assumption that Hell was a place of complete destruction rather than eternal living torment and that seems to fit better with the penalty for sin being death. The truth is I don't know and since I don't know I have no authority to declare my theory as truth. Think of it this way though, if your dog bites you one day do you kill it or just beat it sensless and leave it hanging on a thread of life? The anwer would be obvious to almost everyone. Now Godly justice and human justice are different obviously but what would endless torture even accomplish. Now I haven't read the whole Bible but I don't think God ever made anyone suffer but to teach them a lesson. What would be the point of teaching someone a lesson if they could never act on the change of heart? Now as I have basically just brought out a pretty much completely annihilationist viewpoint I would also like you to check out this website as it offers a view of Hell completely different from the one I just did. (Not allowed to link yet but this is sincere so I I don't think anyone'll mind "yourgoingtohelldotcom") Just because I want to believe that God doesn't let anyone suffer eternally doesn't make it true and I understand that there is nothing I can do but except the absolute truth as no one, man or demon, can change the will of God. All we can do is pray that he will show us the truth so that we can at least find less turmoil in solid truth. Oh yeah, and God wants our love more than anything according to his word and I don't recall anyone in the New Testament turning to God for fear of Hell, although I could be wrong someone please correct me if I am. I have read very little of the Old Testament so there may be some points that I have missed. Sorry that's so long. Here's hoping for ultimate peace for the eternal dead and the eternally alive but something tells me that's a false hope.

whoa.....paragraphs please

 

[Ekemet]

[quote]When I said 'mistake' I meant in not believing in him. Sorry for not making that more clear.

And this would still be wrong. Nobody goes to Hell because they don't believe in Christ. They go to Hell as punishment for their sin.

So then if I'm a good person, but do not believe in Christ, I can still go to heaven? I'm usually told quite the opposite.


Hit me with your best three.

I Kings 8:12 Vs. I Timothy 6:16 - Should be self explanatory on how they contradict.

Genesis 7:23 Vs. Genesis 8:11 - If God did indeed destroy every living thing then the dove would have no olive leaf to bring back. It would not be possible for an olive pit to grow so quickly after being super-saturated with salt water.

Genesis 32:30 Vs. John 1:18 - Should also be self explanatory on how they contradict.

OK. Here are some specifically concerning Jesus:

His birthplace: Micah 5:2 - 'Bethlehem' refers to a person and not a place. In Hebrew the male form of the word 'Bethlehem' is used. Male forms were used for Names and feminine words for places. Jesus also never became the ruler of Israel.

The virgin birth: Isaiah 7:14 - 'Virgin' is a mistranslation of 'Young Woman'. Also, his name was not suppose to be Jesus.

His tribe: Genesis 49:10 [SIZE=-1]- "The tribe of Judah will reign "until Shiloh," but Israel's first king (Saul) was from the tribe of Benjamin , and most of the time after this prophecy there was no king at all." (I took this quote from the SAB because I really don't feel like putting this all in my own words.

[/SIZE] His entry into Jerusalem: Zechariah 9:9 - Taken out of context. This 'prophecy' is about a military king who [SIZE=-1]would rule "from sea to sea". Jesus had no army or a kingdom.

[/SIZE] That He would be betrayed by Judas: Psalm 41:9 - This does not say anything about Jesus. This could be about anyone. Since this Psalm starts with a psalm of David. It most likely would be referring to David. I'm sure Jesus wasn't the only one to have a friend stab them in the back.

His crucifixion: Zech 12:10 (this one is especially interesting since the Jews would not have been familiar with the Roman practice of crucifixion)
I have nothing extra special to argue here other than that the writers of the new testament would have ensured the story of Jesus matched up with the old testament 'prophecies'. Which could be argued for many of the bibles 'prophecies'.

His resurrection: Psalm 16:10 - ...That has nothing to do with being resurrected. Please explain on how it does.

Do you believe that it had a designer?

I'm sure every part of my computer had a designer, though many different ones.

How can you repent without the cross?

Why can't I?...we are talking literally here are we not? I don't recall reading anywhere or every being told I needed a physical cross in order to repent.

Romans 5-7.

Gee. Thanks for clearing that up. It's the '-' that is confusing me. I would assume you mean Romans 5:7. But assuming is not good, so please clarify.

He's given you His word. He's given you the external witness of Creation. He became a man and dwelt among us.[/quote]

His word? Until I can make sense of the Bible I don't trust it as far as I can thro.....hmmm I can actually throw it pretty far...bad analogy, but you get my point. If I can not accept the Bible as truth then I can not believe him to be the true creator or to have ever dwelt among us.

NOTE TO FEARGOD: I will not be reading anything you post until you can use paragraphs. Honestly it is a pain on my eyes and mind.

 

[WarEagle]

[quote=Ekemet;37465921]So then if I'm a good person, but do not believe in Christ, I can still go to heaven? I'm usually told quite the opposite.[/quote]

Are you a good person?

I Kings 8:12 Vs. I Timothy 6:16 - Should be self explanatory on how they contradict.

They're not contradictory. They're just two poetic ways of saying the same thing. The point of both is the same: God's glory is overwhelming to those in it's presence.

Genesis 7:23 Vs. Genesis 8:11 - If God did indeed destroy every living thing then the dove would have no olive leaf to bring back. It would not be possible for an olive pit to grow so quickly after being super-saturated with salt water.

First of all, that's an assumption on your part.

Even if it were true, (a) who says that the olive branch was alive and (b) if God can create the universe with one word, then why can't He create an olive branch?

Second, notice that the verse says that people and animals were killed, not plants. I don't know the fate of the plants, but the fact that it uses the Hebrew word nephesh for "living things" is a good indication that it is speaking only of animals and people, not plants.

Genesis 32:30 Vs. John 1:18 -

Should also be self explanatory on how they contradict.

Again, you didn't bother to read the whole account. Had you read the whole passage, you would have seen that Jacob wasn't talking about seeing the shekina glory of God, as John 1:18 is.

The trouble isn't in harmonizing the two verses. The trouble is in your failure to read the whole thing in context.

'B

ethlehem' refers to a person and not a place.

Not sure where you're getting this but Bethlehem is, indeed, a real place. How can someone be born in a person?

The virgin birth: Isaiah 7:14 - 'Virgin' is a mistranslation of 'Young Woman'. Also, his name was not suppose to be Jesus.

No, it isn't a mistranslation. Words often have more that one meaning.

How did you come to the conclusion that His name wasn't supposed to be Jesus?

[SIZE=-1]

I took this quote from the SAB because I really don't feel like putting this all in my own words.

[/SIZE]

And therein lies the problem. The Skeptics Annotated Bible is a joke. It's routinely exposed by Bible scholars for the fraud that it is.

You're much better off using a real Bible.

His entry into Jerusalem: Zechariah 9:9 - Taken out of context. This 'prophecy' is about a military king who [SIZE=-1]would rule "from sea to sea". Jesus had no army or a kingdom.

[/SIZE]

As usual, you're not reading the whole text. Read Revelation and you'll see that Jesus does lead an army and a kingdom.

This does not say anything about Jesus. This could be about anyone. Since this Psalm starts with a

psalm of David. It most likely would be referring to David. I'm sure Jesus wasn't the only one to have a friend stab them in the back.

As usual, not reading the whole passage.

I have nothing extra special to argue here other than that the writers of the new testament would have ensured the story of Jesus matched up with the old testament 'prophecies'. Which could be argued for many of the bibles 'prophecies'.

Could you please explain to us how the Gospel authors managed to manipulate the Roman government into killing Jesus in such a precise way?

That has nothing to do with being resurrected. Please explain on how it does.

I'll let the phrases "will not abandon me to the grave" and "will not let Your Holy One see decay" speak for themselves.

In every one of these cases, we see that the problem isn't with the text, but with the fact that you're too lazy to read the text for yourself, instead relying on a third source that doesn't even examine the whole passages in context.

I'm sure every part of my computer had a designer, though many different ones.

How do you know?

Why can't I?

Gee. Thanks for clearing that up. It's the '-' that is confusing me. I would assume you mean Romans 5:7. But assuming is not good, so please clarify.

LOL...Thanks but I'm not going to play this game with you. I've told you three times now.

His word? Until I can make sense of the Bible

How can you hope to make sense of it when you won't even read it?

NOTE TO FEARGOD: I will not be reading anything you post until you can use paragraphs. Honestly it is a pain on my eyes and mind.

You know, I don't know that you're in any position to talk. Everytime I respond to one of your posts, I have to go through the hassle of making it readable because you refuse to use the

tags.

 

[Thuli]

[quote]Nobody goes to Hell because they don't believe in Christ. They go to Hell as punishment for their sin.

WarEagle please reconsider your statement. The statement you made will mislead a lot of people who have not accepted Jesus. Don't tell me you believe someone who lives a "holy" life (in a sense being good) but does not believe in Christ will not be punished. What is the unforgivable sin? Please re-phrase your sentence.

 

[WarEagle]

WarEagle please reconsider your statement. The statement you made will mislead a lot of people who have not accepted Jesus. Don't tell me you believe someone who lives a "holy" life (in a sense being good) but does not believe in Christ will not be punished. What is the unforgivable sin? Please re-phrase your sentence.

In a very broad sense, you're right.

But I'm trying to make the point to him that we have to first come to grips with the fact that we've broken God's laws and must be punished for our sin, before we can move on to learning about God's plan of salvation.

Think of it this way: Let's say that you're sitting around the house doing whatever it is you like to do on your day off, when the phone rings.

It's your doctor. He says, "Thuli, I've got great news! I've found a cure and you're not going to die!"

If you didn't know you were sick, then your response would probably be confusion. "What's this guy talking about? I'm not sick. I'm not going to die."

The cure is meaningless without first knowing that you have the disease.

On the other hand, let's say that you've already been diagnosed in inoperable, terminal cancer, and you've gotten the same phone call from your doctor.

This time, however, your response it, "That's wonderful. But you know, I've been thinking about it and I've decided that my body is pretty good at healing itself. I don't think I'm going to accept your cure."

And you die. You ended up dying because you were foolish to turn down the cure, but it was still the cancer that killed you.

In the same way, yes, we do go to Hell unless we repent and put our faith in Christ, but it is our sin that sends us there.

 

[Ekemet]

Are you a good person?

I like to think I am.


They're not contradictory. They're just two poetic ways of saying the same thing. The point of both is the same: God's glory is overwhelming to those in it's presence.

Sounds fair.

First of all, that's an assumption on your part.

Assumption? A olive tree can not grow that quickly after being super-saturated with salt water. Olive trees grow very slowly, it is a fact.

Even if it were true, (a) who says that the olive branch was alive and (b) if God can create the universe with one word, then why can't He create an olive branch?

(a)The olive branch would have to be alive, if it were just some dead branch floating in the water then that would mean the flood wasn't over.

(b)The if-all-else-fails of Christian arguments. If something does not make sense that can not be attributed to mistranslation, removal of context, or metaphor. Then somehow God used his powers to make it so. Sure, God COULD have created an olive branch. He also COULD have caused WWI. Nowhere in the bible does it say or hint that God created the branch. It seems your the one making assumptions.

Second, notice that the verse says that people and animals were killed, not plants. I don't know the fate of the plants, but the fact that it uses the Hebrew word nephesh for "living things" is a good indication that it is speaking only of animals and people, not plants.

Plants are living things.

Again, you didn't bother to read the whole account. Had you read the whole passage, you would have seen that Jacob wasn't talking about seeing the shekina glory of God, as John 1:18 is.

The trouble isn't in harmonizing the two verses. The trouble is in your failure to read the whole thing in context.

Of course, when things contradict I must have taken them out of context. Forgive me the whole "for I have seen God face to face" part must have confused me.



Not sure where you're getting this but Bethlehem is, indeed, a real place. How can someone be born in a person?

I didn't say Bethlehem wasn't a place. Born FROM a person. Read it again. You can see it is vague enough to mean a person was born in a place or from a person.

No, it isn't a mistranslation. Words often have more that one meaning.

Yes, it is a mistranslation. There is a better word for virgin in the Hebrew language: Betulah. Which is not the word used in this case.

How did you come to the conclusion that His name wasn't supposed to be Jesus?

My mistake, I took the last part of it to literally.

And therein lies the problem. The Skeptics Annotated Bible is a joke. It's routinely exposed by Bible scholars for the fraud that it is.

You're much better off using a real Bible.

Exposed for it's fraud? Exposed where, either show me or don't bother saying anything. Based on what other Bible Scholars have said, a majority of Bible Scholars are Christian or fear backlash of the Christian community. If someone has a bias towards something, they will attempt to discredit it even if they have to bend reason and logic.

His entry into Jerusalem: Zechariah 9:9 - Taken out of context. This 'prophecy' is about a military king who [SIZE=-1]would rule "from sea to sea". Jesus had no army or a kingdom.

[/SIZE]

As usual, you're not reading the whole text. Read Revelation and you'll see that Jesus does lead an army and a kingdom.

The events in Revelation have not come to pass. If they ever do, this will be a fulfilled prophecy. Until then Zech 9:9 is a guess at best.

As usual, not reading the whole passage.

That's it? If I apparently don't get it, then explain it. It's bad enough that you use the 'out of context' argument, but to not offer any suggestion of what it actually means?

Could you please explain to us how the Gospel authors managed to manipulate the Roman government into killing Jesus in such a precise way?



I'll let the phrases "will not abandon me to the grave" and "will not let Your Holy One see decay" speak for themselves.

Ah, when something seems to fulfill a prophecy you claim well this can be taken literally. But when something contradicts it's a metaphor.

In every one of these cases, we see that the problem isn't with the text, but with the fact that you're too lazy to read the text for yourself, instead relying on a third source that doesn't even examine the whole passages in context.

So it's come to blatant insults of the work I put into understanding this irritating book? This is something I can never get over about Christians. Every single one has their own interpretation of the Bible and when you try to give them yours or question something. They insult you and say you didn't really read it. For someone accusing me of making assumptions, you seem to make far more.

How do you know?

Please be joking. Every part of my computer needed to be designed. If you would like, I could do research on every freaking part and find out who it was.

LOL...Thanks but I'm not going to play this game with you. I've told you three times now.

Agreed, your games are getting old.


How can you hope to make sense of it when you won't even read it?

Do I have to use that stupid saying about assumptions?

You know, I don't know that you're in any position to talk. Everytime I respond to one of your posts, I have to go through the hassle of making it readable because you refuse to use the tags.

Your text is in black and mine is in a dark red. I honestly didn't think it would be that difficult for you.

 

[WarEagle]

I like to think I am.

We all like to think we are, but does God think we are? Have you kept God's laws?

Of course, when things contradict I must have taken them out of context. Forgive me the whole "for I have seen God face to face" part must have confused me.

No problem. Read the whole thing and you'll see that he's not referring to the shekina glory of God, but to the Angel of the Lord (Jesus) with whom he wrestled.

Yes, it is a mistranslation. There is a better word for virgin in the Hebrew language: Betulah. Which is not the word used in this case.

May I ask what your background in Hebrew is?

Exposed for it's fraud? Exposed where, either show me or don't bother saying anything.

For one thing, as you've already demonstrated, it takes verses way out of context in order to try to pour a different meaning into them.

Based on what other Bible Scholars have said, a majority of Bible Scholars are Christian or fear backlash of the Christian community. If someone has a bias towards something, they will attempt to discredit it even if they have to bend reason and logic.

You mean like the atheists who produced the SAB?

The events in Revelation have not come to pass. If they ever do, this will be a fulfilled prophecy. Until then Zech 9:9 is a guess at best.

No, it isn't a guess. We know from history that it's prediction of the entry is accurate.

It's bad enough that you use the 'out of context' argument

I'm sorry that you think it's a bad thing that I've pointed out that you have a bad habit of taking scripture out of context.

Ah, when something seems to fulfill a prophecy you claim well this can be taken literally. But when something contradicts it's a metaphor.

Show me a contradiction.

So it's come to blatant insults of the work I put into understanding this irritating book?

But you didn't put any work into it. If you had, then you would have taken the time to study out each of the passages you claim contradict and the prophecies you claim don't exist. Instead, we see that you just pulled a bunch of verses out of the air here and there, not caring about what the passages actually said.

This is something I can never get over about Christians. Every single one has their own interpretation of the Bible and when you try to give them yours or question something. They insult you and say you didn't really read it. For someone accusing me of making assumptions, you seem to make far more.

OK. If you read it, did you take the verses out of context intentionally?

Please be joking. Every part of my computer needed to be designed.

You're computer had to have a designer? So, let me get this straight: It's so obvious that your computer had a designer that you can't believe I'd even ask such a thing, and yet, you expect us to believe that the Universe, something 1/1000 of which is infinitely more complex than your computer, just sprang out of thin air?

Do I have to use that stupid saying about assumptions?

It isn't an assumption. If you had read the passages, then you would have seen that you're taking the individual verses out of context.

 

[Emmy]

Dear Ekemet. You say that you were a Christian until recently, and the threat of hell does not make sense to you. May I try and be as short and precise as possible. It is a fact that we were banished to Earth because of Adam and Eve`s disobedience. Instead of repenting we moved farther and farther away from God. In time Jesus came, the promised Messiah. He was born as man, like us, and He lived 33 years amongst us. He showed us how God is really, how much He loves us and wants us back again. Wants us back as His loving children, to repent, to exchange our selfish and wilful nature into a loving selflessly, caring with hearts and hands for our fellow-men and = women. Jesus also told us to become perfect, as God is perfect, and we know that God is LOVE. After Jesus had reconciled us to God, and God had raised Him, we were free of all guilt and the way was open to follow Jesus back to God. Now we know that God is LOVE, and He is waiting for us to return as loving and changed sons and daughters. It does made sense that to live with a loving and benevolent Heavenly Father, we have to be like Him, or at least as much like Him as possible. Jesus promised to teach and guide us, what He has been doing for nearly 2000 years. For those men and women who do NOT want to return to God, there is a PLACE in OUTER DARKNESS, where there will be heard loud wailing and gnashing of teeth. Jesus told us that, and we also know that we have free will to return to God and our Christian brothers and sisters, OR we can go our own way, and end up wailing too. It is our decision, Ekemet. The Hell of Fire and brimstone, which so many believe is the hell they have been wrongly told of, is the place for SATAN and his FOLLOWERs. Jesus gives us life abundant while on Earth, and will lead us to life eternal with our Heavenly Father. I say this humbly and with assurance, and send greetings. Emmy, sister in Christ.

 

[Zunalter]

Hell, I could write a book and tell people God told me to write it down. What would happen if I did that? People would call me a nutter.

I dont know about that....Joseph Smith did it and it worked out pretty well for him

Seriously though, I would like to take a crack at answering those questions for you. Though, since they are all pretty huge questions, they will take a while. So, I pray your patience.

 

[Thuli]

In a very broad sense, you're right.

But I'm trying to make the point to him that we have to first come to grips with the fact that we've broken God's laws and must be punished for our sin, before we can move on to learning about God's plan of salvation.

Think of it this way: Let's say that you're sitting around the house doing whatever it is you like to do on your day off, when the phone rings.

It's your doctor. He says, "Thuli, I've got great news! I've found a cure and you're not going to die!"

If you didn't know you were sick, then your response would probably be confusion. "What's this guy talking about? I'm not sick. I'm not going to die."

The cure is meaningless without first knowing that you have the disease.

On the other hand, let's say that you've already been diagnosed in inoperable, terminal cancer, and you've gotten the same phone call from your doctor.

This time, however, your response it, "That's wonderful. But you know, I've been thinking about it and I've decided that my body is pretty good at healing itself. I don't think I'm going to accept your cure."

And you die. You ended up dying because you were foolish to turn down the cure, but it was still the cancer that killed you.

In the same way, yes, we do go to Hell unless we repent and put our faith in Christ, but it is our sin that sends us there.

You are still not very clear with your explanation. My point is you cannot say to anyone that they cannot go to hell because they did not accept Jesus but because they broke the law. This is totally misleading.

Consider these verses:

Romans 3:19-23

19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

Righteousness Through Faith

21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Romans 4:13-16

13It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, 15because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.
16Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.

What is the use of repenting from one's sins and not accepting the promise given us by God. According to my knowlege the law was abolished 2000 years ago on the cross. Yes, I do agree with u that one has to repent of their sin but we must first accept that Jesus is our saviour and believe that he died for us and was risen from the dead. Please Bro, once again, reconsider your way of witnessing.

 

[Thuli]

Hi Ekemet

It pains me a lot to hear about your frustrations. This is something a lot of rooted Christians have gone through in life and somewhere around the globe someone feels the same as you. My prayer is for God to reach you and not only you but whoever seeks to know Him better. God is love and if you seek him with all your heart you will find Him Deuteromy 4:29.

About Hell. Please know that God does not send anyone to hell but the choices we make in life send us to hell. We all have freedom of choice and whatever choices we make will determine our future.

Note that as Christians we have a lot of time misrepresented God, John 8:41-44. We have most of the time misquote the word of God and created a picture that is not in God's plan. God's plan for our future has always been filled with hope, Jeremiah 29:11 and His desire is to establish us with all his heart and all his soul, Jeremiah 32:41.

Please note that you were not a mistake for all your days are written in God's book, Psalm 139.

I am quite aware that you are against the Bible and perhaps my quoting the scripture to you is just a waist of time but I assume you have come across some of the scriptures. Look, even if the Bible was written by men, it was through God's inspiration and such the Bible is God's constitution. Just as any organisation or body has a constitution, God's children had to also have something to govern and guide them, hence the Bible.

We can go deeper as to why Christians think the Bible is the true word of God and it can take us days if not weeks. Again it depends on you. There is no way any of the Christians on these boards can convince you to believe unless you allow the Spirit of God to work on you and accept Him.

My advice to you my brother is to keep seeking God. Keep seeking until you find him. I am from such circumstances as yourself and maybe worse but God ultimately made Himself available for me because I seek Him without ceasing.

God Bless you my brother and Hey, Chill, If you receive the gift of God's son, you receive God and nothing will ever separated you from His love not even Hades. Relax and stop fighting God. He loves you and your fighting Him hurts him so much.

His question to you is "Will you be my child? John 12-13
And if so He is waiting for you Luke 15:11-32