Perhaps the worst news story I have read in a long time

[BobbieDog]

Key Peninsula Redneck]Isn't that why England has a socialized health care system, so that they can afford to care for people like this?

This the nub.

What you say would have been the UK convention on these things, until yesterday's judgment.

That ruling is a landmark one. It fulcrums a massive change in the ethics of the UK medical services. What follows from this one ruling will affect every detail of a massive health enterprise.

It legitimates triage in medical care: and it places the power of decision of such triage in the hands of medical experts, and administrators; unaccountable decisions as to provision of medical care, can be taken on the basis of resource allocation.

I would also expect a strong counter offensive from those caring for the disabled, concerning commentary in the trial, about the life quality and chances of the disabled.



There are then deeper issues concerned with orthodoxy itself: where the establishment of any orthodoxy, which is what you tend to get with what is led by experts and managers and accountants; creates very disadvantageous conditions for a constituency requiring responses uniquely tailored to them.

The medicine we used to have was done by people. We now move towards a uniformly regulated medical provision. Where there are some who cannot make this migration, and fare best where treated under the relation intensive aegis of old.

The real failure in this case, was in the relation between the parents and the hospital staff. It might well be the case, that a more sensitively managed staff, might have remained connected with these parents: where they and these parents might have reached consensus.
This was the crux of medical need, and of the legal testing: repairing relation between parents and medical staff; and the Justice recognised that in directing both to again seek some reconciliation, knowing that he would make judgement only because of legal necessity, not from a position of all seeing wisdom.
The ethos of the hospital was not so challenged, and that was unfortunate.

 

[armed2010]

However, the COURT has NO RIGHT to make these decisions and it scares the HECK out of me that they are being made. This is the start of a slippery slope and sets a dangerous precedent. Do you all want the court to decide if your loved one stays alive or not? Aren't you all the very ones that harp on "Choice" when it comes to abortion but when it comes to this, it is different?

Ya'll think about this.

This is apples to oranges. The baby lives in immense pain, at levels which have been deemed absolutely inhuman. This decision wasnt based upon the baby having a disability, it was based upon how every moment of its life is an excruciating nightmare.

 

[BobbieDog]

This is apples to oranges. The baby lives in immense pain, at levels which have been deemed absolutely inhuman. This decision wasnt based upon the baby having a disability, it was based upon how every moment of its life is an excruciating nightmare.

Could you link me to articles which flesh that one out.
The only commentary I saw mentioned, was from experts that I took to be employees of the hospital, or medical persons otherwise associated with the care of Charlotte.
I saw no sight of argument which strove to justify this assessment of pain: and I saw no sight of claim that any of these medical experts has training or unusual expertise in pian assessment and management.
I accept that these experts may have held this personal opinion as to Charlotte's pain: but I do not believe that any basis of expertise for this assessment was led.
Arguments as to life expectancy, and expected life quality, and as to diability: were in fact all led in court; and extensive play was made of them by commentating medical practitioners after the ruling. It was explicitly stated that the money which might be spent on Charlotte could be better spent elsewhere, on normal and largely healthy children.

The bottom line could be, that we the public may have been sold several pups: Charlotte's pain environment might be tolerable; Charlotte might well survive with treatment; Charlotte's mature life quality might have been as good as other surviving seriously disabled people.

If Charlotte's parents had been rich, then this case would not have arisen: they would simply have bought the care that kept their child alive; and it would have been provided within the parameters of Hippocratic practice.

 

[Suzannah]

The current intelligenzia would love for people to believe that only the following are worthy of life:

"consciousness"
"intelligence"
"physical normalcy"
"self supporting"
If any of this sounds familiar to anyone, it should. It's called "gnosticism". Particularly the first two which are always at the forefront of these types of arguments.
The last two are more along the lines of ritual sacrifice, as practiced in many primitive societies.

Interesting, yes. But hardly fodder for internet addicts to wax philosophical about. This is at present, a human life within the realm of the living, folks. It is not a number, a "case" or a "legal entanglement". It is a human being and her name is Charlotte.

 

[armed2010]

The current intelligenzia would love for people to believe that only the following are worthy of life:

"consciousness"
"intelligence"
"physical normalcy"
"self supporting"
If any of this sounds familiar to anyone, it should. It's called "gnosticism". Particularly the first two which are always at the forefront of these types of arguments.
The last two are more along the lines of ritual sacrifice, as practiced in many primitive societies.

Interesting, yes. But hardly fodder for internet addicts to wax philosophical about. This is at present, a human life within the realm of the living, folks. It is not a number, a "case" or a "legal entanglement". It is a human being and her name is Charlotte.

Im confused, this has nothing to do with Charlotte. No one is doubting that she is a human. What is being discussed is how she is on the brink of death, and lives in immense pain. They can extend her life, but all it will do is make her live a tiny bit longer in immense pain. The reason the judge is not allowing her life to be extended is because it would just prolong her suffering.

To the other poster, it was in the article on the front page.

 

[Suzannah]

Im confused, this has nothing to do with Charlotte. No one is doubting that she is a human. What is being discussed is how she is on the brink of death, and lives in immense pain. They can extend her life, but all it will do is make her live a tiny bit longer in immense pain. The reason the judge is not allowing her life to be extended is because it would just prolong her suffering.

To the other poster, it was in the article on the front page.

Excuse me, but it has everything to do with Charlotte.
And contrary to your belief, the Judge is not allowing her life to be extended, because the socialistic system that exists in Britain in heavily influenced by intellectual elites who believe that "quality of life" is for the intelligenzia to decide, not the individual, nor the individual's immediate family. Indeed, it is everything to do with Charlotte.

Cloaking and sanctioning murder, in the guise of "alleviating suffering" is pretty much what I call it. Your flag is American. Try living (and dying) in Britain. Both are a daily struggle for survival.

 

[redemption song]

Excuse me, but it has everything to do with Charlotte.
And contrary to your belief, the Judge is not allowing her life to be extended, because the socialistic system that exists in Britain in heavily influenced by intellectual elites who believe that "quality of life" is for the intelligenzia to decide, not the individual, nor the individual's immediate family. Indeed, it is everything to do with Charlotte.

Cloaking and sanctioning murder, in the guise of "alleviating suffering" is pretty much what I call it. Your flag is American. Try living (and dying) in Britain. Both are a daily struggle for survival.

they weren't saving her life; her parents were in effect prolonging death and grasping at false hope for a normal child. that's not life. that's suffering.

 

[armed2010]

Excuse me, but it has everything to do with Charlotte.
And contrary to your belief, the Judge is not allowing her life to be extended, because the socialistic system that exists in Britain in heavily influenced by intellectual elites who believe that "quality of life" is for the intelligenzia to decide, not the individual, nor the individual's immediate family. Indeed, it is everything to do with Charlotte.

Cloaking and sanctioning murder, in the guise of "alleviating suffering" is pretty much what I call it. Your flag is American. Try living (and dying) in Britain. Both are a daily struggle for survival.

So you believe that despite Charlotte living in constant excruciating pain every minute of her tiny life, she should have aggressive surgery done to extend her suffering existence? Im not really sure why you think this is some sort of conspiracy of the intellectual elite, because this is quite clearly a case of alleviating suffering. Theres no reason this child should have to go through what shes going through right now, just to satisfy the parents.

 

[armed2010]

they weren't saving her life; her parents were in effect prolonging death and grasping at false hope for a normal child. that's not life. that's suffering.

Theres more to it actually

In the past five months, Charlotte has stopped breathing three times and doctors say she is in constant pain with "no joy or fulfilment". She will never be able to sit up or take food by mouth. After her last collapse in July, doctors at the hospital asked her parents for their consent not to revive her if she stops breathing again. They say that each time she is resuscitated, she suffers further damage and pain and that to revive her would be "futile and even cruel".

 

[Suzannah]

they weren't saving her life; her parents were in effect prolonging death and grasping at false hope for a normal child. that's not life. that's suffering.

It is not up to you, or to me, or to a Judge to decide what is and is not "false hope".

 

[armed2010]

It is not up to you, or to me, or to a Judge to decide what is and is not "false hope".

Its pretty clear to the doctors that it is.

 

[Suzannah]

So you believe that despite Charlotte living in constant excruciating pain every minute of her tiny life, she should have aggressive surgery done to extend her suffering existence? Im not really sure why you think this is some sort of conspiracy of the intellectual elite, because this is quite clearly a case of alleviating suffering. Theres no reason this child should have to go through what shes going through right now, just to satisfy the parents.

Wrong. (Putting words in someone's mouth is quite rude you know.)

I am saying that if there is "choice" (which there is in Britain) then euthanasia by court order, does not in any way shape or form resemble that, and the hypocrisy of it is galling.

 

[Suzannah]

Its pretty clear to the doctors that it is.

I see. So no one except the learned are worthy of making such decisions?

 

[armed2010]

Wrong. (Putting words in someone's mouth is quite rude you know.)

I am saying that if there is "choice" (which there is in Britain) then euthanasia by court order, does not in any way shape or form resemble that, and the hypocrisy of it is galling.

So the parents should have a choice between letting their daughter suffer, or letting her finally rest in peace?

 

[armed2010]

I see. So no one except the learned are worthy of making such decisions?

Most doctors spend years learning about biology and things related to this, so I would assume they have the best opinion relating to the matter?

 

[Suzannah]

So the parents should have a choice between letting their daughter suffer, or letting her finally rest in peace?

If there is truly "freedom of choice" that decision rests with them and not within the purview of the British court. And incidentally, wrt your other post, using your logic:

Theres no reason this child should have to go through what shes going through right now, just to satisfy the parents.

There is also no reason why her life should be terminated just to satisfy your point of view.

 

[Suzannah]

Most doctors spend years learning about biology and things related to this, so I would assume they have the best opinion relating to the matter?

I see. And her parents who have spent years loving her, have none? Or the right to it?


You see, you have fallen into the same trap as everyone else on the Internet. In your mind, only those who "know" or are "in the know" should make any and all decisions pertaining to life and what constitutes "quality" of the same. Gnosticism in spite of your atheism.

 

[armed2010]

If there is truly "freedom of choice" that decision rests with them and not within the purview of the British court. And incidentally, wrt your other post, using your logic:


There is also no reason why her life should be terminated just to satisfy your point of view.

I am all for freedom of choice, but this borders on torture. We have a baby whos every waking moment is painful, and her parents want to keep her alive a tiny bit longer, while at the same time extending her suffering. This is downright inhuman.

 

[armed2010]

I see. And her parents who have spent years loving her, have none? Or the right to it?


You see, you have fallen into the same trap as everyone else on the Internet. In your mind, only those who "know" or are "in the know" should make any and all decisions pertaining to life and what constitutes "quality" of the same. Gnosticism in spite of your atheism.

Her parents dont seem to understand that all they are doing is extending their childs suffering. The doctors realize that this baby is dying, and that attempts to keep her alive will just hurt the child more. I will take their educated opinion over the selfish wants of the parents.

 

[Suzannah]

I am all for freedom of choice, but this borders on torture. We have a baby whos every waking moment is painful, and her parents want to keep her alive a tiny bit longer, while at the same time extending her suffering. This is downright inhuman.

I see. And you, a complete and total stranger to the situation, "know" better. Inhuman is the extinguishing of life, any human life. I thought we had "progressed" in civilisation. "Mercy killing" is nothing more than a rehash of ritual sacrifice. In this case, the child will sacrificed in the name of "humanity". How nice. How merciful. How civilised. Barbaric societies would be proud. If only they could see us now.