Perfection or struggle given from God?

[Drifter Kybe Scythe Kane]

Why does God allow lucifer and his units of followers to stick around? I mean he's the almighty God, man handled the Egyptian gods with Moses I think if I remember right as I was once Christian in my Christian studies with Christian tutors(sorry if I get Christian facts wrong as I go along with this if there are any more I say, it's been a long time and only remember a few core teachings about the wonderful book and the religion. I'm agnostic by the way.), the strongest of all the recorded gods. I would think that as God, it's easier to get rid of lucifer and his dominions and followers right away, right? He can literally destroy his way out of all the problems lucifer and his witches and demons and the like to aid us or we'd be talking like...lucifer's language if he has a unique one that is, I forgot. What is he waiting for? Is he being patient to use wisdom and judgement in his great plan as yet another written step to show his mastery and revolutionary strategy as some showcase as an ultimate strategist for his organization on his end? Why is he 'eventually' gonna help us as christians believe that many of us are being attacked by the devil, the darn second strongest being so far and probably going to stay that way of all time? Is he assessing the situation somehow just for show to showcase such ability in his great plan or something? He can reestablish order whenever he wants, can't he? When I was asked this as a Christian I gave an answer I don't remember but just curious to expert Christians. Peace out and God bless.

 

[Serving Zion]

Why does God allow lucifer and his units of followers to stick around? I mean he's the almighty God, man handled the Egyptian gods with Moses I think if I remember right as I was once Christian in my Christian studies with Christian tutors(sorry if I get Christian facts wrong as I go along with this if there are any more I say, it's been a long time and only remember a few core teachings about the wonderful book and the religion. I'm agnostic by the way.), the strongest of all the recorded gods. I would think that as God, it's easier to get rid of lucifer and his dominions and followers right away, right? He can literally destroy his way out of all the problems lucifer and his witches and demons and the like to aid us or we'd be talking like...lucifer's language if he has a unique one that is, I forgot. What is he waiting for? Is he being patient to use wisdom and judgement in his great plan as yet another written step to show his mastery and revolutionary strategy as some showcase as an ultimate strategist for his organization on his end? Why is he 'eventually' gonna help us as christians believe that many of us are being attacked by the devil, the darn second strongest being so far and probably going to stay that way of all time? Is he assessing the situation somehow just for show to showcase such ability in his great plan or something? He can reestablish order whenever he wants, can't he? When I was asked this as a Christian I gave an answer I don't remember but just curious to expert Christians. Peace out and God bless.

Here is the thing: Jesus said that knowing the truth will set us free. What has happened as a result of the fall, is that mankind has believed all sorts of lies about God. They make claims about God that they have not known to be true, and when the truth comes to reveal that they were wrong, they become egotistic, fearful of the shame or condemnation of being exposed as a false teacher, so they choose to deceive themselves by thinking that nobody will know better if they just lie their way out of it. In that way, they are walking in the darkness, and St. John writes through 1 John 1:6 that they are not practising the truth. Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the life", and "remain in me and you will prodice much fruit", whereas what happens is they are taken captive by the father of lies (John 8:44).

In 1 John 4:1 St John says that the spirit of the antichrist has come into the world through the false teachers. If Christianity had only ever taught the truth, as the essence of what Jesus and His apostles taught, then we would not have had the antichrist spirit in the world. But the antichrist spirit is the devil, who came to take and make captives of people in the name of Christianity, through the false teachings.

Now, hear this part: St John writes (1 John 4:18) that there is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is of punishment. The one who is of fear, therefore, has not been made perfect in love. So the ones who preach the gospel from a spirit of fear are not preaching from the spirit of love, that is the spirit of God. Those ones have been taken captive by the devil, but now watch: when they encounter The Spirit of God (aka: the Spirit of Truth), their error is brought to light .. and because they have not been made perfect in love, they fear coming toward the light (John 3:19-21). What St Paul observes is that there is a tendency of human sin to rise up against the one who is bringing the light that exposes them, so as to silence, that one (1 John 3:12). This is found in any congregation where a person brings The Holy Spirit to such an extent that they cannot grow in the love of the truth - they are slandered and put out of the congregations (Galatians 4:16-17).

St John write in 1 John 3:15 that the one who hates his brother is a murderer, having no life in them. Therefore, we deduce that because there are Christians who follow false teachings (inevitably, as a result of the heresies and the pattern of the intellectually dishonest - 2 Peter 2:1-3), that they are caught up in beliefs that put them at odds with the truth - thereby being dead in their trespasses and sin. That is what gives the devil his hold over the world (1 John 5:19).

So, it is only by loving the truth more than our own self, that we are able to break free of that captivity, and that is what it takes for God to redeem the world (Romans 5:17) .. this is the meaning of "crucifying the flesh", and yet, it can only happen when a person knows the nature of love enough that he can put away his fear.. and for that to happen, they need to have encountered the spirit of God in such a way that their wrong thinking is made right - to trust Him enough that they will come out of the darkness into the light. And then of course, there is the parable of the sower - when a seed falls by the path, it is snatched up by the devil and does not grow. If it takes root in shallow soil, it does not endure and quickly falls away. If it grows among thorns, it is choked out and doesn't produce fruit. This is where it is important, if you get a new revelation that brings you into a relationship with God such that you are on the right track again, guard that! .. be aware that what you have is the pearl of great price .. a treasure to be guarded most diligently, and you are the only one who knows!

.. For more food for thought about this topic of why we hide from the truth, check out this brochure and this page

If this didn't fully answer your question, just let me know where your thoughts are at, and I will try to draw a new conclusion. Nice to meet you here today!

 

[Drifter Kybe Scythe Kane]

Here is the thing: Jesus said that knowing the truth will set us free. What has happened as a result of the fall, is that mankind has believed all sorts of lies about God. They make claims about God that they have not known to be true, and when the truth comes to reveal that they were wrong, they become egotistic, fearful of the shame or condemnation of being exposed as a false teacher, so they choose to deceive themselves by thinking that nobody will know better if they just lie their way out of it. In that way, they are walking in the darkness, and St. John writes through 1 John 1:6 that they are not practising the truth. Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the life", and "remain in me and you will prodice much fruit", whereas what happens is they are taken captive by the father of lies (John 8:44).

In 1 John 4:1 St John says that the spirit of the antichrist has come into the world through the false teachers. If Christianity had only ever taught the truth, as the essence of what Jesus and His apostles taught, then we would not have had the antichrist spirit in the world. But the antichrist spirit is the devil, who came to take and make captives of people in the name of Christianity, through the false teachings.

Now, hear this part: St John writes (1 John 4:18) that there is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is of punishment. The one who is of fear, therefore, has not been made perfect in love. So the ones who preach the gospel from a spirit of fear are not preaching from the spirit of love, that is the spirit of God. Those ones have been taken captive by the devil, but now watch: when they encounter The Spirit of God (aka: the Spirit of Truth), their error is brought to light .. and because they have not been made perfect in love, they fear coming toward the light (John 3:19-21). What St Paul observes is that there is a tendency of human sin to rise up against the one who is bringing the light that exposes them, so as to silence, that one (1 John 3:12). This is found in any congregation where a person brings The Holy Spirit to such an extent that they cannot grow in the love of the truth - they are slandered and put out of the congregations (Galatians 4:16-17).

St John write in 1 John 3:15 that the one who hates his brother is a murderer, having no life in them. Therefore, we deduce that because there are Christians who follow false teachings (inevitably, as a result of the heresies and the pattern of the intellectually dishonest - 2 Peter 2:1-3), that they are caught up in beliefs that put them at odds with the truth - thereby being dead in their trespasses and sin. That is what gives the devil his hold over the world (1 John 5:19).

So, it is only by loving the truth more than our own self, that we are able to break free of that captivity, and that is what it takes for God to redeem the world (Romans 5:17) .. this is the meaning of "crucifying the flesh", and yet, it can only happen when a person knows the nature of love enough that he can put away his fear.. and for that to happen, they need to have encountered the spirit of God in such a way that their wrong thinking is made right - to trust Him enough that they will come out of the darkness into the light. And then of course, there is the parable of the sower - when a seed falls by the path, it is snatched up by the devil and does not grow. If it takes root in shallow soil, it does not endure and quickly falls away. If it grows among thorns, it is choked out and doesn't produce fruit. This is where it is important, if you get a new revelation that brings you into a relationship with God such that you are on the right track again, guard that! .. be aware that what you have is the pearl of great price .. a treasure to be guarded most diligently, and you are the only one who knows!

.. For more food for thought about this topic of why we hide from the truth, check out this brochure and this page

If this didn't fully answer your question, just let me know where your thoughts are at, and I will try to draw a new conclusion. Nice to meet you here today!

Thank you for your reply and nice to meet you too. Where my thoughts are at with those teachings is that I have built many safeguards in my mind to block off personal bad trajectorial thought pathways that I instinctively and or in analyzingly ways I don't like. Putting that aside, I am thankful for seeing your perspective and find it refreshing to attempt to start some Christian wetting my feet ways. I'm gonna look at he brochure now. Thanks again for the reply....oh yeah, also I have a unique relationship with God and believe in other gods, I hope we can agree to disagree at least on that front as well. Thanks for the attempt to protect to me from lucifer on your end of your unique galaxy in you at least in terms of your beliefs. I really appreciate it. We all have our own identities. As you can see, I don't know yet if I fully commit to one side...well, obviously as I am an agnostic. But yeah, over the years, my beliefs have varied from atheist to Christian to now agnostic added on to each other through the whole time by different view belief to different view belief.

 

[Sabertooth]

So much of what you are asking about in the OP, you do not have the capacity to digest.

Paul wrote [in 1 Corinthians 2:13-15],

"These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one."

Jesus said [in John 3:3],

“Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot [even] see the kingdom of God.”

You need to be Born Again and filled with the Spirit before you can truly grasp any of these matters.

 

[Serving Zion]

I have built many safeguards in my mind to block off personal bad trajectorial thought pathways that I instinctively and or in analyzingly ways I don't like.

It is good that you are aware of this tendency, as I know that many people are not aware of the reasons that they make decisions, and as such, are not fully in control (somewhat taken captive, enslaved). It is important, in my view, to recognise that while it does serve you well to not follow a trajectory into bitterness and resentment, but in detecting that direction in a message, to not 'throw the baby out with the bathwater'. The enmity between the opposing offspring is a natural consequence of the fall (Genesis 3:15). Eg: Proverbs 29:27, Hosea 4:1, Jeremiah 23:30-33, consider what happened through Jeremiah 26 too.

Jude 1:9-12 shows that there is a certain way to speak harshly, as a Christian, against the wickedness of the false teachers, while also being seasoned with grace and giving opportunity for anyone who hears it to be convicted and strengthened by it (Romans 8:1).

 

[Drifter Kybe Scythe Kane]

So much of what you are asking about in the OP, you do not have the capacity to digest.

Paul wrote [in 1 Corinthians 2:13-15],

"These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one."

Jesus said [in John 3:3],

“Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot [even] see the kingdom of God.”

You need to be Born Again and filled with the Spirit before you can truly grasp any of these matters.

Ah I see, so it's like being trained to read a paper the right way or else it pretty much means you might as well be blinded to that particular paper-that it takes time and only the most trained can read that paper-something parallel to what you just said I hope so I know where you're coming from.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

God has a plan which was set in place before the foundation of the world. He does things at the right time. It took 400 years for the Israelites to occupy Canaan, because it took that time for the sin of those people to mature to the point where their time of judgment was to come. And their time of judgment came at the right time, probably 40 years later than originally intended because of the disobedience of the Israelites about when they were intended to occupy Canaan. God's ways are not our ways. He has His own times and seasons. Jesus came at the right time when the conditions in Israel and the Roman Empire were right, and the formation of the Church was at the right time when the Pax Romana was in place, and Roman roads enabled the spread of the Gospel.

When Jesus confronted the legion of demons in the Gadarene graveyard, they cried out, "Have you come to torment us before the time?" This means that those demons knew that there was a time coming when God would finally deal with them, but the time was not yet.

Satan and his demons were totally defeated when Jesus rose from the dead. He has no further power over Christian believers. Born again believers are out of Satan's range of influence. He has to flee from them.

But as far as unbelievers are concerned, Satan has the legal right to influence them and the affairs connected with the world systems. He is still legally the god of this world until the right time in the plan of God for him to be finally dealt with. Human history is not haphazard. It is developing toward a final point where God will wrap everything up. In the meantime, believers are expected to "get on with it" in terms of doing God's will. Jesus said, "Occupy until I come." In other words, we are to continue to know God's will by reading the Bible, and continue to do God's will by doing the Bible until the time when Jesus comes again.

 

[Sabertooth]

Ah I see, so it's like being trained to read a paper the right way or else it pretty much means you might as well be blinded to that particular paper-that it takes time and only the most trained can read that paper-something parallel to what you just said I hope so I know where you're coming from.

I'm not sure about your analogy.

It is more like receiving an FM signal, but only being equipped with an AM demodulator/receiver. You will be able to see the raw data coming in, but you won't be able to reconstruct its intent.

 

[Drifter Kybe Scythe Kane]

God has a plan which was set in place before the foundation of the world. He does things at the right time. It took 400 years for the Israelites to occupy Canaan, because it took that time for the sin of those people to mature to the point where their time of judgment was to come. And their time of judgment came at the right time, probably 40 years later than originally intended because of the disobedience of the Israelites about when they were intended to occupy Canaan. God's ways are not our ways. He has His own times and seasons. Jesus came at the right time when the conditions in Israel and the Roman Empire were right, and the formation of the Church was at the right time when the Pax Romana was in place, and Roman roads enabled the spread of the Gospel.

When Jesus confronted the legion of demons in the Gadarene graveyard, they cried out, "Have you come to torment us before the time?" This means that those demons knew that there was a time coming when God would finally deal with them, but the time was not yet.

Satan and his demons were totally defeated when Jesus rose from the dead. He has no further power over Christian believers. Born again believers are out of Satan's range of influence. He has to flee from them.

But as far as unbelievers are concerned, Satan has the legal right to influence them and the affairs connected with the world systems. He is still legally the god of this world until the right time in the plan of God for him to be finally dealt with. Human history is not haphazard. It is developing toward a final point where God will wrap everything up. In the meantime, believers are expected to "get on with it" in terms of doing God's will. Jesus said, "Occupy until I come." In other words, we are to continue to know God's will by reading the Bible, and continue to do God's will by doing the Bible until the time when Jesus comes again.

Oh, that's why lucifer doesn't have the same style of tyranny on at least 'truly saved reborn christians' anymore like he did in the past in Christian lore and history. i guess my beliefs on that were unique too on that as a once Christian and now but it explains such facts of him engaging in his campaigns in fully Christian ways of your guys' history. Thanks for that bit of data on official Christian lore.

 

[Sanoy]

I think every Christian has asked themselves this question at some point. There is a lot I can't answer because we are not told, but the Bible does give some sense of the condition we are in.

God can only act according to His nature, He can't go against His given word, and there are logical conditions that might prevent Him from taking action. For example Chuck Norris can't win a chess game through using Karate. He has to win according to the internal rules of the game. The adversary legally owns us, and so a price must be paid for us. Additionally, God has a council of Angels which the Old Testament refers to a few times. Well, way back in the tower of Babel (which was the ziggurat Etemenanki btw) it says that God divided the nations according to the number of this council (Deuteronomy 32:8 ESV). It is that council that has ownership of the nations, whereas Israel was Yahwehs portion. God gave up these people over to the very things they were worshiping. Jesus was tempted with rulership over the world by the adversary because the adversary owned it. Part of Jesus's mission is to take the nations back, which He is doing through His spiritual Kingdom which is now being fought on earth. In fact Eusebius records, from the very accusations against the Christians by the Pagans, that the Greek gods (demons and fallen angels) ceased to provide oracles and healing after Jesus began to be preached. Psalm 82 ends with the judgement of these angels and Jesus rising up to take the nations back "Arise, O God, judge the earth; for you shall inherit all the nations!"

I don't see the adversary winning. Because the evil and suffering in this world draws good people to God and Evil people to Evil things. God is watching and despite what we see He makes His enemies moves work against them.

 

[bling]

Why does God allow lucifer and his units of followers to stick around? I mean he's the almighty God, man handled the Egyptian gods with Moses I think if I remember right as I was once Christian in my Christian studies with Christian tutors(sorry if I get Christian facts wrong as I go along with this if there are any more I say, it's been a long time and only remember a few core teachings about the wonderful book and the religion. I'm agnostic by the way.), the strongest of all the recorded gods. I would think that as God, it's easier to get rid of lucifer and his dominions and followers right away, right? He can literally destroy his way out of all the problems lucifer and his witches and demons and the like to aid us or we'd be talking like...lucifer's language if he has a unique one that is, I forgot. What is he waiting for? Is he being patient to use wisdom and judgement in his great plan as yet another written step to show his mastery and revolutionary strategy as some showcase as an ultimate strategist for his organization on his end? Why is he 'eventually' gonna help us as christians believe that many of us are being attacked by the devil, the darn second strongest being so far and probably going to stay that way of all time? Is he assessing the situation somehow just for show to showcase such ability in his great plan or something? He can reestablish order whenever he wants, can't he? When I was asked this as a Christian I gave an answer I don't remember but just curious to expert Christians. Peace out and God bless.

I think you have been given a lot of poor answers in the past, so I am not surprised by your being an agnostic and it is actually very logical.

As we would expect: “Everything is objective driven”, so we need to understand man’s objective and God’s objective in all this.

Generally:

Without getting to philosophical: “Something has had to always exist since it is illogical to think something comes from nothing. Now some atheists have tried to get around this by saying nothing is really “something” and there is no such thing as really “nothing”. The bottom line is there has always been something. Now did that something at least include intelligence or was it just mass/energy/time/space? The problem with “excluding” intelligence is there appears to be a huge amount of intelligence that went into the design of this universe especially life that makes it virtually impossible to happen by random “luck”. If there is one thing we have learned it is: “the more we know the more we realize we do not know”, so that means an ever increasing complex universe and the more complex it is the more random chances are needed to make the right conditions without intelligence and the more likely scenario is there was intelligence involved.




If there is this eternal intelligence it would be at the epitome of the best it could be and not in the process of improvement. It would be the ultimate bad or good but not somewhere in-between. Why be bad when He can be good just as easily? The ultimate “good” would be what is called Godly type Love (to be defined later) and is a totally unselfish type Love. Since this God would be able to direct our thinking, why would He have us think of him as being totally bad, when He could make us think bad was good and thus He would be worthy of praise? If God were bad and we praise a “Good God” than we are not praising Him.


The reason you have free will is because it is required for you to complete your earthly objective.

This messed up world which includes satan roaming around is not here for your pleasure, but to help you become like God Himself in that you have the unique, unbelievable Godly type Love (God himself is Love).

God has created beings to shower them with the greatest gifts possible, the greatest gift being having a Love like His.

If there is this Creator of the universe out there, His “creations” could not really “do” anything for Him, so this Creator would have to be seen as a Giver (Unselfish Lover) and not trying to “get” something from His creation.

Why would God have a totally unselfish type of Love, since He personally would not get anything out of it? If God’s “Love” is some kind of knee jerk reaction, then it is really meaningless (something like; gravity which is nice to have, but everyone automatically has it). God Loves us in spite of what we have done, who we are or what we will do, so it has to be by His choice.


God would create the right universe for the sake of the individuals that will accept His gift (the most powerful force [Love] in all universes, since that force [Love] compels even God to do all He does) and thus we become like He is (the greatest gift He could give).

What keeps the all-powerful Creator from just giving whatever He wants to his creation, eliminating the need for free will and this earthly time:

There are just something even an all-powerful Creator cannot do (there are things impossible to do), the big inability for us is create humans with instinctive Godly type Love, since Godly type Love is not instinctive. Godly type love has to be the result of a free will decision by the being, to make it the person’s Love apart from God. In other words: If the Love was in a human from the human’s creation it would be a robotic type love and not a Godly type Love. Also if God “forces” this Love on a person (Kind a like a shotgun wedding) it would not be “loving” on God’s part and the love forced on the person would not be Godly type love. This Love has to be the result of a free will moral choice with real alternatives (for humans those alternatives include the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.)


This Love is way beyond anything humans could develop, obtain, learn, earn, pay back or even deserve, so it must be the result of a gift that is accepted or rejected (a free will choice).


An unselfish God would be doing all He can to help willing individuals to make that free will decision to accept His Love. Again, since God will not be forcing these individuals, they have to be willing (it is their choice) and God cannot “make” them willing since that is robotic action. God can only at best make them free will agent (like God is) and capable of make the right decision without the selection being worthy of anything (it is a gift of pure charity).


This “Love” is much more than just an emotional feeling; it is God Himself (God is Love). If you see this Love you see God.


Let me just give you an example of How God works to help willing individuals.


All mature adults do stuff that hurts others (this is called sin) these transgressions weigh on them burden them to the point the individual seeks relief (at least early on before they allow their hearts to be hardened). Lots of “alternatives” can be tried for relief, but the only true relief comes from God with forgiveness (this forgiveness is pure charity [grace/mercy/Love]). The correct humble acceptance of this Forgiveness (Charity) automatically will result in Love (we are taught by Jesus and our own experience “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”). Sin is thus made hugely significant, so there will be an unbelievable huge debt to be forgiven of and thus result in an unbelievable huge “Love” (Godly type Love).

If the nonbeliever had knowledge of God's existence that person would not need faith in God's existence, but faith is needed for humility and humility is needed to humbly accept pure charity and the only way to get Godly type Love is through accepting it as pure charity in the form of forgiveness.

That is an introduction to a huge topic.