Perfection or no?

Andrew4jesus · May 30, 2017

Reformationist said:
So, in a recent discussion I came across the view that God does not demand perfection in the keeping of His commandments.

Anyone else feel that way?

That's ok then, I think I'll pop out and kill someone and then have a good perv over my neighbours wife lol I'm not perfect

Gideons300 · May 30, 2017

Kenny'sID said:
Questions like that are good for this thread. When, somewhere along the line, any teaching conflicts with what is biblical, it is a false teaching.

I was spoken to as if "contributing to my own salvation" was a bad thing, when if we try to live right as God expects, even demands, we will be told we do wrong.

The same little trick/deception those that help Satan's cause use when we try to obey the rules God set up for us, we are being legalistic.

There are other ways these teachers give themselves away as well, I mean why be nice if we don't have to be?

I guess it might be productive to share a bit of my testimony here as I normally do not post on this particular forum. It will be a bit of a read, for I see no way of condensing it, but for any thruly still trapped in Romans 7 and feeling like wretched men, I promise that what I will share, what God shared with me, will change your walk completely.

Saved in 1970, addicted to porn, I was convinced that everything would change now that I had God in my life. Fast forward 38 years. I had tried fasting, trying harder, letting go and letting God, fervent prayer, accountability partners, thinking about other things, ministry, scripture reading and memorization, binding and loosing, confessing it gone, and in the end I was still addicted, and with nothing else on the horizon I knew to try, I was ready to givevup hope of ever walking free of this debilitating sin.

Then it happened, now almost 10 years ago, it happened. One night in a puddle of tears and resigned hopelessness, God appeared to me physically. Before you ask me what He looked like, my reply was that it is hard to see when you are surrounded by blinding light and bowed down low in amazed horror, wonder, joyful delight and fear. This is what He said to me.

"For huthis, my son, I am well pleased with you."

Say whaaaat? I had longed to feel truly pleasing to God for nigh on forty years, and now? Now, when in my weakness and tears, still bound by my addiction, now He tells me I am pleasing to Him? It made ZERO sense to me, but that confusion melted with His next words.

"I knew all along that you could not walk the walk I asked of you, but you did not yet know it."

Oh, for that wondrous word YET. And praise God, He did not stop there. He continued:

In all of your tryings, did you ever do what I asked of you through the apostle Paul? I did not have to think of the answer to which He was referring. He simply let me know what He was talking about. The answer was in Romans 6, which I knew instinctively was important, and as a matter of fact had it memorized. And what was the puzzle piece I had been blind to? Ready?

Just after God told us two immense truths we needed to know....

1) when Christ died, so did we.

2) When Christ rose from the dead, H brought us up with Him.

......He then asked is to DO something based upon these two facts. He asked us to reckon, i.e. to add into our spiritual bank account, the truth to we were now new creatures, and that we were now dead to sin.

In an instant I saw it. And unhesitstingly, with no doubt, I spoke out the truth that was now MY truth. I spoke loud enough for all te angels in Heaven to hear. I spoke loud enough for all the minions in Hell to hear. But most importantly, I spoke loud enough for my own ears to hear the truth and grasp hold of it by faith in our God who cannot lie.

"I reckon myself dead to sin and to my old nature. I believe that right now, this very moment, I am a new dreature in Christ and alive from the dead. Sin no longer shall hold me for the old me is dead and I am a new creature in Christ."

Guys, that was 10 years ago. On that night everything changed. Why? Was I "special"? LOL. Far from it. I had simply come to the point that I realized that no matter how hard I tried, I could never love God with ALL of my heart as long as a part of it was reserved for love of me. I would never be able to love others as I loved myself, given a thousand lifetimes. I had come to the point of having NO strength as I told God I longed to walk holy before Him but would never get there. And it was then that I found that God had a miracle with my name on it. The new me could do all things through Christ.

The transformation began that night, and continues this very day. I have a long long way to go, but I would be a liar if I did not acknowledge the amazing changes I have seen God make in me, filling me with fruits where there were once only weeds.

We think our problem is that we are too weak. We are wrong. The problem is that we have been too strong, and not wanting to admit our absolute inability to do as He commanded.

I have much more to share if any here is interested, but this is a good place to start.

Be blessed,

Gideon

Kenny'sID · May 30, 2017

Gideons300 said:
I had come to the point of having NO strength as I told God I longed to walk holy before Him but would never get there.

Assuming by holy you mean perfect, we were never expected to be perfect in that walk, that's why Christ died, so we could ask/have forgiveness, get back on tack, and move on, It's that simple to me.

I suppose different people have different experiences.

GeorgeJ · May 30, 2017

Andrew4jesus said:
That's ok then, I think I'll pop out and kill someone and then have a good perv over my neighbours wife lol I'm not perfect

It would be wrong to assume that murder and adultery are/were forbidden only in cultures where the Abrahamic God is worshipped.

Truthfrees · May 30, 2017

MOD HAT

Posts have been removed or edited for going off topic and discussing each other rather than the topic.

Bible Highlighter · May 30, 2017

ToBeLoved said:
But you did not say that. You were talking to someone who is a professed Christian using this verse to prove a point that those who make a justification for sin based on this verse, but this verse is not about professing believers at all.

I am using this verse as a means to attack a false belief and it was not to attack anyone personally.

You said:
This is your quote:

But God also teaches in His Word that those who seek to justify sin will not make it.
Jude 1:4 talks about those who turn God's grace into a license for immorality.

There is nothing about that verse being about non-Christians coming in with false teaching.
...

Jude 1:4 we notice several things.

#1. Certain men crept in unawares (Jude 1:4).
This means they are clever enough to pass themselves off as Christian among the real brethren. For they crept in among us.
12 "These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever." (Jude 1:4) (See Matthew 25:30 that says that there are children of the kingdom who will be cast into outer darkness).

#2. They turn the grace of our God into lasciviousness (KJV), or a license for immorality (NIV) (Jude 1:4). So if they snuck in among us, they are posing as believers and they hold to a view of salvation that turns God's grace into a license for immorality in some way.

#3. They deny the only Lord God and the Lord Jesus Christ. In John' s 1st epistle he had written to the brethen warning them about certain false believers who had denied the deity of Christ and who did not believe sin had any effect on them as believers (salvation wise). For they believed that they had no sin both past and in the present (See 1 John 1:8, 1 John 1:10). John was writing to the brethren about these false believers who were trying to seduce them (1 John 2:26). 1 John 2:4 says that if we say we know Him (Christ) and do not keep His commandments, we are a liar and the truth is not in us. I have ran into one person on this forum who not only denies the deity of Christ, but they also deny sin can separate a believer from God, as well. But what about others who do not believe exactly this way? Should they be included? It is definitely possible. For the Scriptures say that there are those who deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16).

#4. Jude makes many examples in reference to individuals who were once right with God but fell away from the Lord.
(a) Those who were saved out of Egypt that later did not believe and were destroyed by God (Jude 1:5).
(b) Gone the way of Cain (Jude 1:11).
(c) Ran greedily after the error of Balaam (Jude 1:11).
(d) Perished in the gainsaying of Core (Jude 1:11).

#5. They walk after their own ungodly lusts . These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit. (Jude 1:18-19). So these are certain individuals posing as Christians who are sensual and having not the Spirit.

#6. They feed themselves without fear (Jude 1:12). So when they gather in fellowship every week over the Lord's supper with genuine Christians they are feeding themselves among the brethren without fear. Today in the Eternal Security belief, there is no such thing as "fear." It does not exist. A person is once saved always saved so there is no reason to fear God. There is no working out one's salvation with fear and trembling because they got their golden ticket to Heaven and nobody can take it away. No fear. They feed themselves without fear.

#7. They are plucked up by the roots. In the Parable of the Sower, we learn that two of the seeds did not make it because they had no root within God's Word within the soil of their heart that was sowed by Jesus. One fell away due to persecution and the other fell away from the faith due to riches or the cares of this life.

#8. They are twice dead (Jude 1:12). All babies are saved by Christ's sacrifice. So if a baby dies they will be with Jesus. However, if a baby does not die, and a person grows up, they grow into sin and need to receive Jesus as their Savior to restore that relationship. As to speaking about these individuals in Jude, they had died once spiritually when they grew up into sin after being a baby and they died spiritually a second time when they had then turned God's grace into a license for immorality sometime after their early walk with God. In 1 Timothy 5 we learn of believing widows who have turned aside after Satan. That widow who lives in pleasure is considered dead spiritually while she physically lives.

...

Bible Highlighter · May 30, 2017

ToBeLoved said:
I believe as God's Word says that we were purchased by Christ for a price, a large price. And that when we are saved we are as Romans 4, 5 and 6 says we die to sin in Christ as He did. We are created into a new creation by Christ and sealed with the Holy Spirit as a seal of the New Covenant being co-heirs with Christ to the Father and that the Holy Spirit is our down payment now and the rest of our inheritance will come after we die.

That is what I believe. I believe just as God's Word says that we 'changed' ownership/changed masters. That self and sin was our master and that after we are saved that Christ is our master. That this is a legal transfer of ownership like God's Word says.

Now why don't you get specific about what you believe.

Let me ask in a different way. Do you believe serious sin can separate a believer from God if they do not repent of such a sin? Or do you believe all true believers will repent of their sins? Is confession of sin what God really wants for our lives or does God want to transform us in such a way whereby we can walk uprightly here upon this Earth?

Also, Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, but that does not mean eveyone is saved. The way to have the blood applied to a person's life is to walk in the light of Christ as He is in the light (See 1 John 1:7).

...

Andrew4jesus · May 30, 2017

GeorgeJ said:
It would be wrong to assume that murder and adultery are/were forbidden only in cultures where the Abrahamic God is worshipped.

I thought we are talking about Gods Commandments?

Gideons300 · May 30, 2017

Kenny'sID said:
Assuming by holy you mean perfect, we were never expected to be perfect in that walk, that's why Christ died, so we could ask/have forgiveness, get back on tack, and move on, It's that simple to me.

I suppose different people have different experiences.

Holy simply means wholly His. He takes care of the perfection part as we yield to Him standing in faith that our old nature is dead. That is the progressive side of holiness. We all have flaws that need to be turned into fruits. But we mistake these flaws for sins so we are defeated in our pursit of walking holy before Him in love before we ever get started.

For instance, is anger a sin? Most would reply yes. But it is not, unless we persist in it after the Holy Spirit deals with us. We are not to have any more consciousness of sins but that is certainly not the diet we have been fed. Is it no wonder that so many have thought holiness an unattainable and thoroughly unrealistic goal, as they think any flaw in our character is sinful. This teaching has made laodecian saints in thr majority of our churches, but God is fixing to change all that, to our eternal joy and gratefulness.

Blessings,

Gideon

GeorgeJ · May 30, 2017

Andrew4jesus said:
I thought we are talking about Gods Commandments?

You're the one the singled out murder and adultery as God's commandments. My point is that the prohibition of murder and adultery aren't just God's commandments. They're historically and currently accepted tenets of many cultures' moral law.

Bible Highlighter · May 30, 2017

Gideons300 said:
I apologize for forgetting to address these.

It is perfectly all right, my friend.
We all have busy schedules and lives outside of the forum.
I just wanted you to be aware that I did not see a reply at first (Just in case there was an error in posting in some way).

Jason0047 said:
Do you believe that a believer in Christ can walk away from the faith and lose their salvation?

You said:
Yes, of course. One would have to ignore a multitude of clear scriptural warnings to believe otherwise. We have been fed a view of grace that is not found in the Word. Who is it that is saved? He that endures to the end.

That is good to hear you believe what the Bible says on this point. Many seek to explain such verses away.

Jason0047 said:
Is there even a thing as living holy as a requirement in your belief?

You said:
Are we not all called to be pure in heart, to live possessing our bodies in sanctification and honor?

Is it a salvation issue not to be pure in heart? Jesus says that they that are pure in heart will see God. If we live out a life of faith, can we be saved without possessing our bodies in sanctification and honor? Meaning, can we die in one or two unrepentant sins (like lying and lusting after a woman) and still be saved?

You said:
But lest we forget, there will be some who hav all their works burned up, but they will b saved, but as by fire. Were these living holy for achrist? Obviously not. Were they still saved? Obviously yes.

1 Corinthians 3 is not about a lack of works with a believer being saved but it is about the TYPE of work that they have that they build upon the foundation (Who is Jesus Christ). So no individuals are present at this judgment whereby they are devoid of any work. Remember, that chapter also says that if one defiles their own temple, God will destroy that temple, too. Sin destroys our temple. Granted, I am not saying that babies who die are not saved and I am not saying that the thief on the cross was not saved. They obviously were saved by God's grace. But there will be a Judgment for believers by what they do. If they do not have any works to burn, they will not make it. For James says faith without works is a dead kind of faith. A dead faith cannot access the saving grace of God (Which is a gift).

You said:
As sheep, we have been led into pastures that can barely sustain life, let alone live it abundantly. Many languish not because they choose to, but because they have been told that they must.be holy ,yet the only instruction they have is "Just do it." That is not being free indeed.

Hebrews 12:14 says without holiness no man shall see the Lord.
Titus 1:16 says you can deny God by a lack of works.
1 John 2:4 says that if we say we know Him (Jesus) and do not keep His commandments we are a liar and the truth is not in us.

You said:
Hope this helps.

Blessings, Gideon

And blessings unto you, Gideon.
And may you please be well.

...

Andrew4jesus · May 30, 2017

GeorgeJ said:
You're the one the singled out murder and adultery as God's commandments. My point is that the prohibition of murder and adultery aren't just God's commandments. They're historically and currently accepted tenets of many cultures' moral law.

Maybe they are but op was asking if it is ok to be not quite perfect when following Gods Commandments. He didn't mention other cultures.

Kenny'sID · May 30, 2017

Gideons300 said:
Is it no wonder that so many have thought holiness an unattainable and thoroughly unrealistic goal, as they think any flaw in our character is sinful.

You mention a single flaw that isn't a flaw at all, I'd have to know the full range of flaws you are talking about before I could agree or disagree. It appears you are really stating nothing new, sin is sin unless it is not sin, as in the one you mentioned.

For instance, living fornication as a lifestyle, I mean something we are always ready to do if the opportunity presents, is one very real thing that is not a flaw, that can end us up in Hell, and the type thing I am referring too.

Some say that is no problem, and it's covered by grace, or even go so far as to promote it by stating if we decline to do something like that, and teach it should not be done, we are legalistic, don't accept what Christ did for us and a number of other blah, blah, blah's to try to put a guilt trip on those who try to do good, or in the words of some, for doing such a terrible thing as trying to be proactive in our salvation. That is exactly how Satan, the master of confusion works.

There are those who will never buy Satan's junk, they know the truth and are happy to oblige God, where others don't like God's plane and want an easier one that lets them have their cake and eat it too, those are the ones that will be taken in/will allow it, and for that reason, it's no ones fault but their own.

Most of that is not directed at you, Gideon.

DeerGlow · May 30, 2017

So someone like me who has strayed from the faith, I'm twice dead and destined for hell? There's no mercy? God doesn't love me anymore?

jimmyjimmy · May 30, 2017

Neogaia777 said:
Christ accomplished the law at the cross, only one needed to, and only one who is God could do it, and that still remains a fact...

No, sin is not OK, just forgivable, (under circumstances between God and that individual alone) is all...

That's not what you said. You said that the standard had changed.The law then required perfection, but now God grades on a curve? Is that you view?

This is such a common error. Grace is NOT a lowering of the law of God, which requires Perfect obedience. God didn't turn into a permissive father. Th law has not changed. It's only that Christ lived a perfect life and died a sinner's death on behalf of His sheep.

What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”b 8But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. 9Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.

GirdYourLoins · May 30, 2017

God does demand perfection. But fortunately for us He accepts the faultless sacrificial Lamb as an atonement for our sin and deems that we are made perfect by Jesus.

RisenInJesus · May 30, 2017

Gideons300 said:
I guess it might be productive to share a bit of my testimony here as I normally do not post on this particular forum. It will be a bit of a read, for I see no way of condensing it, but for any thruly still trapped in Romans 7 and feeling like wretched men, I promise that what I will share, what God shared with me, will change your walk completely.

Saved in 1970, addicted to porn, I was convinced that everything would change now that I had God in my life. Fast forward 38 years. I had tried fasting, trying harder, letting go and letting God, fervent prayer, accountability partners, thinking about other things, ministry, scripture reading and memorization, binding and loosing, confessing it gone, and in the end I was still addicted, and with nothing else on the horizon I knew to try, I was ready to givevup hope of ever walking free of this debilitating sin.

Then it happened, now almost 10 years ago, it happened. One night in a puddle of tears and resigned hopelessness, God appeared to me physically. Before you ask me what He looked like, my reply was that it is hard to see when you are surrounded by blinding light and bowed down low in amazed horror, wonder, joyful delight and fear. This is what He said to me.

"For huthis, my son, I am well pleased with you."

Say whaaaat? I had longed to feel truly pleasing to God for nigh on forty years, and now? Now, when in my weakness and tears, still bound by my addiction, now He tells me I am pleasing to Him? It made ZERO sense to me, but that confusion melted with His next words.

"I knew all along that you could not walk the walk I asked of you, but you did not yet know it."

Oh, for that wondrous word YET. And praise God, He did not stop there. He continued:

In all of your tryings, did you ever do what I asked of you through the apostle Paul? I did not have to think of the answer to which He was referring. He simply let me know what He was talking about. The answer was in Romans 6, which I knew instinctively was important, and as a matter of fact had it memorized. And what was the puzzle piece I had been blind to? Ready?

Just after God told us two immense truths we needed to know....

1) when Christ died, so did we.

2) When Christ rose from the dead, H brought us up with Him.

......He then asked is to DO something based upon these two facts. He asked us to reckon, i.e. to add into our spiritual bank account, the truth to we were now new creatures, and that we were now dead to sin.

In an instant I saw it. And unhesitstingly, with no doubt, I spoke out the truth that was now MY truth. I spoke loud enough for all te angels in Heaven to hear. I spoke loud enough for all the minions in Hell to hear. But most importantly, I spoke loud enough for my own ears to hear the truth and grasp hold of it by faith in our God who cannot lie.

"I reckon myself dead to sin and to my old nature. I believe that right now, this very moment, I am a new dreature in Christ and alive from the dead. Sin no longer shall hold me for the old me is dead and I am a new creature in Christ."

Guys, that was 10 years ago. On that night everything changed. Why? Was I "special"? LOL. Far from it. I had simply come to the point that I realized that no matter how hard I tried, I could never love God with ALL of my heart as long as a part of it was reserved for love of me. I would never be able to love others as I loved myself, given a thousand lifetimes. I had come to the point of having NO strength as I told God I longed to walk holy before Him but would never get there. And it was then that I found that God had a miracle with my name on it. The new me could do all things through Christ.

The transformation began that night, and continues this very day. I have a long long way to go, but I would be a liar if I did not acknowledge the amazing changes I have seen God make in me, filling me with fruits where there were once only weeds.

We think our problem is that we are too weak. We are wrong. The problem is that we have been too strong, and not wanting to admit our absolute inability to do as He commanded.

I have much more to share if any here is interested, but this is a good place to start.

Be blessed,

Gideon

What a great testimony and biblical truth you gave shared! We can never live the Christian life ourselves, but only through Christ living in us. It is only when we die and walk in newness of life in Christ...Likewise you also reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord (Romans 6:11). It is His power and perfect righteousness imputed to us.

jimmyjimmy · May 30, 2017

Nick714 said:
just love the lord your God with all your heart all your mind and do all things onto him.

Uh. . . that IS perfection.

If I could do that, Jesus wouldn't have had to die for me. That is the entire law (except for the neighbor part)

jimmyjimmy · May 30, 2017

Gideons300 said:
The old covenant "demands". The new covenant promises.

Have you ever read the Sermon on the Mount?

ToBeLoved · May 30, 2017

jimmyjimmy said:
Those who have the highest view of the law are the Reformed.

By reformed, do you mean Calvinists?

Also, what does it mean to have the highest view of the law?

Perfection or no?

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