Perceptions of Pentecostals

[rapturefish]

Hi there everyone! I have a couple of questions. What is the Range of Perceptions of Pentecostals by Reformed Churches? And what is that perception based upon? I'm interested in gauging the range of views here.

 

[Irishcat922]

When you say Pentecostal what do you mean? Traditional oneness type of theolgy, or the mainline charismatic flavor.

 

[Terri]

Yeah Rapturefish, tell us what you believe, and I will tell you what I think about it!

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

Hi there everyone! I have a couple of questions. What is the Range of Perceptions of Pentecostals by Reformed Churches? And what is that perception based upon? I'm interested in gauging the range of views here.

I have friends who are AoG and they are fine Christian people. We disagree on a number of topics, but I do count them as dear brothers and sisters in Christ.

In the are I live there are more than normal number of Oneness (anti-Trinitarian) Pentecostal and I have some of them that are friends as well. I like them, but my perception of them their religion is not very high.

I don't want to go into details here.

In Christ,
Kenith

 

[rapturefish]

When you say Pentecostal what do you mean? Traditional oneness type of theolgy, or the mainline charismatic flavor.

Let's try both.

 

[Irishcat922]

I have Issues with the oneness theology because of what it does to the Trinity, it is heresy. I have found that most Charismatics or pentecostals don't really know what or why they believe what they believe. I have many friends who are Charismatics and most are unaware of the heresy being taught amongst there own teachers. The hard line pentecostals I personally try to avoid on the basis of thier Heretical view of God. I am open to dialoguing about those views if you want. I say this in Love because I were one, for many years.

 

[HGFireStarter2k3]

I have found that most Charismatics or pentecostals don't really know what or why they believe what they believe. I have many friends who are Charismatics and most are unaware of the heresy being taught amongst there own teachers.

What things, in regards to beliefs and practices, would you consider as heretical among Charismatics or Pentecostals? The way I understand heresy, I mean things that would place them outside the bounds of orthodox Christianity, into the realm of the cults (i.e. Mormonism, JW's, etc.) Would you consider theological abberations on the same level as heresy?

 

[Irishcat922]

Some Like oneness theology. Jesus Spiritual death, Much of The WOF teaching is heretical. I don't mean that most charismatics are heretics, but if you follow out much of the heretical teachings to thier logical conclusions, they tend to mysticism or humanism not sound biblical teaching. Like i said, I was a Charismatic for many years, and I am open to dialogue about the teachings. We have discussed some of those issues, Jose.

 

[TheMagi]

I think a division has to be made between charismatic and pentecostal here. 'Charismatic' has never entailed anything other than the belief that spiritual gifts (tongues, prophecy, healing etc)are alive and kicking. Many Charismatic churches regrd themselves as reformed - indeed as Calvinist - including my own.

Pentecostal belief, as I understand it, is that unless you manifest spiritual gifts you are not saved - or, at least, that all christians will manifest those gifts. Obviously, this can be utterly innocuous - or it can be a grotesque violation of 'whosever believeth in me', depending on interpretation.

There are, obviously, a number of charismatic and pentecostal churches that are teaching some extremely unsound theology. I think that has more to do with the appeal of the 'experience' of Charismatic faith attracting people who have a poor biblical understanding than the other way round.

All the same, I do have to agree that sounder Charismatic churches, while they may not fall down on the teaching of the word, do fall down when it comes to individual member's own knowledge of it. I would certainly apply this to my own church. The teaching is excellent - and thoroughly reformed - but many people in it would have difficulty with biible knowledge beyond a basic plan of salvation.

Which is why heresy arises, of course.

Magi

 

[Irishcat922]

I think a division has to be made between charismatic and pentecostal here. 'Charismatic' has never entailed anything other than the belief that spiritual gifts (tongues, prophecy, healing etc)are alive and kicking. Many Charismatic churches regrd themselves as reformed - indeed as Calvinist - including my own.

Pentecostal belief, as I understand it, is that unless you manifest spiritual gifts you are not saved - or, at least, that all christians will manifest those gifts. Obviously, this can be utterly innocuous - or it can be a grotesque violation of 'whosever believeth in me', depending on interpretation.

There are, obviously, a number of charismatic and pentecostal churches that are teaching some extremely unsound theology. I think that has more to do with the appeal of the 'experience' of Charismatic faith attracting people who have a poor biblical understanding than the other way round.

All the same, I do have to agree that sounder Charismatic churches, while they may not fall down on the teaching of the word, do fall down when it comes to individual member's own knowledge of it. I would certainly apply this to my own church. The teaching is excellent - and thoroughly reformed - but many people in it would have difficulty with biible knowledge beyond a basic plan of salvation.

Which is why heresy arises, of course.

Magi

Agree!

 

[rapturefish]

I should explain why I started this question. I was for a major part of my life brought up in mainline churches - Baptist, Uniting, Presbyterian and Evangelical churches. Through a major spiritual crisis I was led by God to a charismatic church and have been moving in a Petnecostal diection in my faith. However, my network of friends means I do bump into people from evangelical and Presbyterian, etc. churches and I notice the gap between the 'camps'.

I wanted to gauge just how true that gap is by seeing whether the place things are in is true elsewhere and not just where I am in Australia. I also hope that some bridging could be done. My concern of late has been this gap and it burdens me that the army of God is not unified (in all its diversity) and marching as one for the cause of the Kingdom.

Some points have been made; there is some truth to them, and in other cases I feel that the perception is not totally accurate of all Pentecostal churches though it would apply to a minority of them. Certainly I have benefitted from the grounding of the word in my previous Presbyterian church and others, and I do believe that this is good. From my own limited experience, the word is also well regarded in Pentecostal and charismatic churches. However, the way in which the word is perceived differs such that the preaching is not necessarily straight expository or more literal but rather in terms of spiritual principles in action in the word. This means the word is referred to to extrapolate the principle, and then the principle is expounded upon rather than continual looking at a specific context of that word. I don't believe this is 'wrong' as such; indeed it has validity. But there are times I do miss a more contextualised approach to the word.

A majority of Pentecostals do not believe that one is not saved unless they exhibit some spiritual gift. There are some that do believe these things, but from these forums and others the common opinion from Pentecostals is that these are in the minority. I think that the record does need to be set straight on things like these; it is not uncommon for those groups outside the evangelical circles to be stereotyped by the more exceptional and extreme features & fringes of that group, and those things are not always true or representative of that group; yet that's what happens and evangelicals are not the only ones who do this. The media does it, Pentecostals also do it, as well as every other group that fears or has little contact with another group.

Pentecostals do believe the same gospel that evangelicals do; in fact one might be right in saying that they should also be included as evangelicals since they also believe in spreading the gospel as important. It's just that they also have this emphasis on the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and in speaking in tongues and this overshadows the evangelical aspect. I do believe that in finer points of theology the Pentecostals could do better on the whole; it is not as big an emphasis because there is the practical aspect of the Holy Spirit as a living and active part of christian living.

I do hope that something can be bridged in regard to Pentecostalism and Evangelicalism. It's a sad thing to see that the camps were established right at the start when mainline churches persecuted the first tongues-speakers (and not all Pentecostals speak in tongues) at the turn of the 20th Century and those ostracized ended up forming their own denomination and the walls were put up. A person named David du Plessis worked towards reducing the height of those walls in the 50's or 60's and he was criticized by both camps for it. Yet I do believe something good began through that. May that wall-breaking continue for God's sake.

blessings,

RF <><

 

[Irishcat922]

I don't have any problem including them in Evangelicalism. But I don't like what the term Evangelical connotes. I have many good friends who are Charismatics, as well as several family members, I believe they are Christians and we fellowship frequently. I still disagree with thier theology, as they do mine. I was Charismatic for several years, so I sympathise where you are coming from, but I do believe that there are some important issues that most Charismatics are wrong about, and many are not willing to discuss doctrine openly. You are welcome to hang out and discuss doctrine, or anything else you are interested in, as much as you like. Welcome aboard friend.

 

[theywhosowintears]

Quick Q. from a 'stupid' Pentecoastal what exactly is "oneness" theology... can I get a definition?

Peace.

 

[Irishcat922]

Here is a definition from a Charismatic. What is Oneness Pentecostal theology?

Oneness Pentecostal theology affirms that there exists only one God in all the universe. It affirms the deity of Jesus and the Holy Spirit. However, Oneness theology denies the Trinity. The Trinity is the doctrine that there is one God who manifests Himself as three distinct, simultaneous persons. The Trinity does not assert that there are three gods, but only one. This is important because many groups who oppose orthodoxy, will accuse Trinitarians of believing in three gods. But this is not so. The doctrine of the Trinity is that there is one God in three persons.
Oneness theology denies the Trinity and teaches that God is a single person who was "manifested as Father in creation and as the Father of the Son, in the Son for our redemption, and as the Holy Spirit in our regeneration."1 Another way of looking at it is that God revealed himself as Father in the Old Testament, as the Son in Jesus during Christ’s ministry on earth, and now as the Holy Spirit after Christ’s ascension.
In addition, oneness theology also maintains that baptism is a necessary part of salvation; that is, in order to be saved, one must be baptized, by immersion. If you are not baptized you cannot be saved. However, not only must baptism be by immersion, it must also be administered with the formula "In Jesus’ name" rather than the formula "In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" which is mentioned in Matt. 28:19. Finally, this baptism must be administered by a duly ordained minister on a church that maintains oneness theology: United Pentecostal, United Apostolic, etc.
Oneness churches also teach that speaking in tongues is a necessary manifestation of the Holy Spirit. Since a person cannot be saved without the Holy Spirit (Rom. 8:9), it follows that only those who have spoken in tongues are really saved. There is, therefore, an emphasis that Oneness church members speak in tongues to "demonstrate" that they are saved and have the truth.
Oneness groups are decidedly Arminian in the doctrine of salvation. They deny predestination and maintain that it is completely up to the individual to decide whether or not he wants to be saved. They also teach that it is possible to lose one's salvation.
There is within the Oneness movement an attempt to represent themselves in a modest and holy manner. This is to be commended. However, sometimes it tends to become legalistic in that women are required to abstain from wearing makeup and pants. They also must have their heads covered. Likewise, men should be well dressed, preferably in ties (this has been my experience with them). Such practices are not wrong in themselves, and are good examples of propriety. However, when they become requirements for acceptance in a church, it is legalistic. Legalism leads to bondage and the requirements of keeping the law to maintain salvation. It then becomes a means by which a person's spirituality is judged. Oneness churches strongly imply that if you go to movies, or have a TV, or wear makeup, etc., then you are not "really" a Christian.
I am not saying that the Oneness Theology necessarily leads to legalism, but it seems to be quite evident that it has taken over much of Oneness practice.
​

________________
1. http://www.upci.org/about/index.asp
​

 

[theywhosowintears]

I am from a pentecoastal church... my girlfriend was a member of a 'reformed' church, which I attended on several occasions (the teaching was quite good) however a problem arose that went something like this:

girlfriend begins to come to my church.
girlfriends father is one of the pastors of the reformed church.
Her father meets me is happy enough wth our relationship and doesnt disapprove of my church (which he visited)
but her senior pastor threatens her father with dismissal if she continues to date a pentecoastal.
she is continually being asked to sit in meeting with the church elders who warn her of the 'dangers of pentecoastals' (a direct quote)
She becomes the subject of a members meeting where she is not allowed to be present and is discussed before the church etc.

Eveything eventually worked out but it nearly tore the church apart. Is that normal or simply a bad experience?

Peace

PS: I am a fan of the reformed church's biblical knowledge and passion for studying... and I also I love the touch of the Holy Spirit in pentecoastal churches.
PPS: Thank you for the explination of oneness theology.

Extract for the AOG Statement of Beliefs.:
*The terms "Trinity" and "persons" as related to the Godhead, while not found in the Scriptures, are words in harmony with Scripture, whereby we may convey to others our immediate understanding of the doctrine of Christ respecting the Being of God, as distinguished from "gods many and lords many." We therefore may speak with propriety of the Lord our God who is One Lord, as a trinity or as one Being of three persons, and still be absolutely scriptural.

*Christ taught a distinction of Persons in the Godhead which He expressed in specific terms of relationship, as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, but that this distinction and relationship, as to its mode is inscrutable and incomprehensible, because unexplained

*Accordingly, therefore, there is that in the Father which constitutes him the Father and not the Son; there is that in the Son which constitutes Him the Son and not the Father; and there is that in the Holy Ghost which constitutes Him the Holy Ghost and not either the Father or the Son. Wherefore the Father is the Begetter, the Son is the Begotten, and the Holy Ghost is the one proceeding from the Father and the Son. Therefore, because these three persons in the Godhead are in a state of unity, there is but one Lord God Almighty and His name one.

*The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are never identical as to Person; nor confused as to relation; nor divided in respect to the Godhead; nor opposed as to cooperation. The Son is in the Father and the Father is in the Son as to relationship. The Son is with the Father and the Father is with the Son, as to fellowship. The Father is not from the Son, but the Son is from the Father, as to authority. The Holy Ghost is from the Father and the Son proceeding, as to nature, relationship, cooperation and authority. Hence, neither Person in the Godhead either exists or works separately or independently of the others.

What do you think?

 

[Irishcat922]

The AOG Distinguished themselves from the UPC in regard to their views on the Trinity. They have always held to the biblical view of the Trinity. They are basically semi-pelagian in their soteriology, and they don't require the baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues as evidence of one's salvation, as do the UPC. I have some friends who are AOG and they are pretty normal Christian people. I think Gordan Fee is AOG. I believe he is reformed, and has written several excellent books, probably one of the best commentaries ever done on the book of First Corinthians.

 

[Radagast]

In the case of Trinitarian Pentecostals, they are beloved brothers and sisters in Christ (with a theology that IMHO is wrong on some points).

-- Radagast

 

[mannysee]

Hey,

after becoming a christian i attended a what you would call (and what i suppose the church called itself) a Pentecostal church for some 8 years. However, now having come to slowly see some errors within my old church and having opened the bible more often, i am now searching out what i suppose you would call a Reformed type of church, where in depth teaching of scripture is done. Basically, being in the Pentecostal church exhausted me to a point of not being healthy.

 

[Irishcat922]

It was all that dancin and clappin wasn't it? Whew! that'll wear anybody out.

 

[mannysee]

no, i'm cool with that. It was the heavy commitment to be in church so many times a week.