Per LCMS (?): We don't have free will?

[Polycarp_fan]

On another thread on another plane of existence, I was debating a Lutheran (about the subject over there) and he went bonkers on me saying that there is no such thing as free will, or rather, that we do not, and cannot "choose" to follow Christ Jesus. That God is the only reason we come to God.

We don't have free will?

Can someone fill me in on this doctrine? I am a fairly new member to Lutheran MS, and haven't gotten that deep into theology/doctrine.

I basically wanted my children raised in a more traditional denomination as the merry-go-round of Evangelicalism is sometimes daunting, but in all honesty, I could go to any number of Churches/denominations and feel that I was honoring our Lord. But I have a great admiration and trust in the path blazed by Martin Luther.

I do intend to go to the Pastoral staff, but I am here often and thought I ask the question here.

I hope you don't mind.

 

[DaRev]

On another thread on another plane of existence, I was debating a Lutheran (about the subject over there) and he went bonkers on me saying that there is no such thing as free will, or rather, that we do not, and cannot "choose" to follow Christ Jesus. That God is the only reason we come to God.

We don't have free will?

Can someone fill me in on this doctrine? I am a fairly new member to Lutheran MS, and haven't gotten that deep into theology/doctrine.

I basically wanted my children raised in a more traditional denomination as the merry-go-round of Evangelicalism is sometimes daunting, but in all honesty, I could go to any number of Churches/denominations and feel that I was honoring our Lord. But I have a great admiration and trust in the path blazed by Martin Luther.

I do intend to go to the Pastoral staff, but I am here often and thought I ask the question here.

I hope you don't mind.

He is absolutely correct.

We do not have free will in spiritual matters. Because we are conceived and born sinful, we cannot choose to be believers. God chooses us and gives us the gift of faith.

We are born spiritually dead. As Jesus says to Nicodemus in John 3, "Spirit gives birth to spirit" which means that is is by the grace of God alone and by the work of Christ on the cross and empty tomb that we have been Spiritually born. This happens in baptism where we are united to Christ's death and resurrection. Baptism is God's work where we are spiritually born (John 3:5). Without God choosing us, we would never be Christians.

While we cannot and do not choose Christ, we are free to reject Christ and thus lose our salvation. This is why we as Lutherans say that our will is bound to our sinful nature.

We are justified and saved by the grace of God alone through faith alone on account of the work and merit of Christ alone.

 

[Polycarp_fan]

He is absolutely correct.

We do not have free will in spiritual matters. Because we are conceived and born sinful, we cannot choose to be believers. God chooses us and gives us the gift of faith.

Then, is it safe to say that God chooses not to choose others? I definately am having a hard time with this. It appears that God is playing with us like toys. Ones he likes, he "saves," the ones He doesn't, he doesn't even pick up. Where did this thought process develope?

We are born spiritually dead. As Jesus says to Nicodemus in John 3, "Spirit gives birth to spirit" which means that it is by the grace of God alone and by the work of Christ on the cross and empty tomb that we have been Spiritually born.

Didn't one of the criminals being executed alongside Jesus recognize "what" Jesus was, and chose to ask Him to remember him?

Why the need to preach the Gospel if God will only take the people he has already decided on to take?

This happens in baptism where we are united to Christ's death and resurrection. Baptism is God's work where we are spiritually born (John 3:5). Without God choosing us, we would never be Christians.

So is it safe to say that God chooses not to choose other people to not become Christians (so to speak)? It just seems odd to think like that.

While we cannot and do not choose Christ, we are free to reject Christ and thus lose our salvation.

How can a person reject what they never had? Wouldn't they rather be choosing "freely" to follow Christ?

This is why we as Lutherans say that our will is bound to our sinful nature.

Where can I find this doctrine being detailed?

We are justified and saved by the grace of God alone through faith alone on account of the work and merit of Christ alone.

Then, if God chooses us, why would need to "do" anything? We just sit in our bars and clubs and wait to see who gets called out?

I'm hoping that I come across respectfully. I have a reputation in some other threads of being quite er, direct, shall I say. But, this doctrine of no free will choices kind of shocked me.

 

[JCFantasy23]

Hmmm this is baffling to me too. I've always believed everyone has the choice to come to God, and He wants us all to come to him, yet many of us resist. I do not believe He would have some people born to never know him on purpose, and some people he picks from birth to automatically know Him and become a Christian. Unless this is not what is being said?

As for free will, if we are able to lose salvation by turning away from God, is that not in a way free will?

Looking forward to more explanations on this, it's interesting

 

[TCat]

This is an area I also struggle with. I do understand that the Holy Spirit woos and calls and draws us to Him, that we are not free to "choose" God because we are dead in and of ourselves. We can also reject Him even as we feel compelled to answer Him.
Is is that God, who wants none to perish, calls everyone but only a few respond?
That is the only way I can seem to grasp this concept.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

[/b]

Then, is it safe to say that God chooses not to choose others? I definately am having a hard time with this. It appears that God is playing with us like toys. Ones he likes, he "saves," the ones He doesn't, he doesn't even pick up. Where did this thought process develope?



Didn't one of the criminals being executed alongside Jesus recognize "what" Jesus was, and chose to ask Him to remember him?

Why the need to preach the Gospel if God will only take the people he has already decided on to take?




So is it safe to say that God chooses not to choose other people to not become Christians (so to speak)? It just seems odd to think like that.



How can a person reject what they never had? Wouldn't they rather be choosing "freely" to follow Christ?



Where can I find this doctrine being detailed?



Then, if God chooses us, why would need to "do" anything? We just sit in our bars and clubs and wait to see who gets called out?

I'm hoping that I come across respectfully. I have a reputation in some other threads of being quite er, direct, shall I say. But, this doctrine of no free will choices kind of shocked me.

Let's see...

Since God our Heavenly Father created us, we are his; each and every person. Just as we are born of our parents, we are theirs. We can not choose our parents.

God's love is perfect, and extends to all.

In the same way that we can rebel against our parents, we can rebel against God. If we rebel and become estranged from our parents, it does not make them anything other than our parents.

Likewise when we rebel against the Lord, he is still our heavenly father, and he continues to love us. He loves us so completely that we can totally reject him, come back, and receive the love and benefit of salvation as though we never left.

The good thief had his eyes opened by the Holy Spirit, just as all who come to faith. He did not choose to believe, rather the belief was a gift of God's Grace.

The Gospel must be taught, since it is the Word of God. Scripture tells us that "the prophets spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit". The Gospel is one of the ways that the Holy Spirit calls us to faith.

Occasionally God "Chooses" someone to do special things. For example he chose Moses to lead the Isrialites out of Egypt. But as we can see from reading Exodus Moses was not perfect and not above God's punishment, neither were his "Chosen" people. Moses is in heaven, but he was not allowed to enter the promised land.

To believe that we can accept Christ, and thereby participate in our own salvation belittles Christ's sacrifice on the Cross. The false doctrine of cooperating in our salvation was one of the main issues of the reformation and remains such to this day.

Sit in the bar if you want, (Luther did from time to time) but if we neglect the faith that we are given, God may verywell neglect us on the last day, and we may well be sitting somwhere warmer.

Rememeber that while works gain us no merit, James tells us that "faith without works is dead".

Reread the Third Article (The Holy Spirit) from your Catechism. You will find enough Bible references to keep you studying for at least a week!

So in summary,

• We are all chosen.
• We all have rebeled against God, due to the stain of original sin.
• Only Christ's sacrifice redeams us
• Redemption only comes through faith in Christ and what he has done for us.
• Faith is a gift of God's grace, given to all by the Holy Spirit through word (Gospel) and Sacrament.
• Free will allws us to reject faith, and salvation.
• Remember the prodigal son, our Lord's arms are always open to welcome us home when we stray. (we all stray again because of original sin).
• Salvation and good works that we do, proceed from our faith. (evil godless men can do good things, but without faith these "are as filthy rags".

I hope this helps a little. I'm sure Da rev, and others a lot more learned could explain further.

May the Holy Spirit strengthen and preserve us in the true faith!

Mark

 

[BigNorsk]

Polycarp,

You immediately jumped to a position that sounds a lot like Calvinism, not Lutheranism. We do not teach that God predestines the damned. Instead we teach that those people rejected God. We believe that Jesus died for all, and that the offer of the gospel is an honest one. But that people persist in their rejection of God and so they perish. Much like this passage concerning God's chosen people.

Luk 13:34 ESV
(34) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!

Notice God gathers them, they are clearly part of God's chosen people, yet they reject God, they would not.

Now at that point many people again jump just like you did and extrapolate that if you can reject then you must be free to chose.

Yet that isn't what the passage says, it says God gathered them. The people didn't gather themselves, God did the gathering. Yet the people rejected God. God chose them, God predestined them, yet they rejected him.

If one actually had free will then he should be able to do something quite easily. He should be able to believe or not at will. Try this experiment. Since you are a believer, why don't you just not believe for awhile say a day or two and then believe again.

Let us know how that demonstration of free will works. Can you just spontaneously, of your own chosing, chose not to believe for awhile and then chose to believe again? I say not, no way.

It's probably safter to ask someone who is an unbeliever just to try Christ out, why not have them agree to believe just for a month or so and then they are free to return to unbelief. I think they will tell you some version of "I cannot", and they would be correct. Yet if you continue to share with them the news about Jesus Christ you find there are people who do come to belief. It is not that they get free will and can chose, instead, in a process we don't completely understand, they are given faith. The person who claims to have chosen Christ did so because he believed, he already believed.

So when we evangelize, we do not say chose, chose. Instead, we share law, which convicts the person, convinces him of his sinfulness and need of saving. That is, it prepares the way for the gospel, and then we share the gospel which provides relief, forgives them of their sins.

Is there tension in this whole thing? Certainly. Things don't seem perfectly logical to man. Yet we do not construct a system of theology based on logic. That would be a philosophy of man. No, Lutherans make a great effort to restrict our theology, our beliefs to the Bible, we don't change our teachings because it would be more logical. We know that God's ways are not man's ways, and so instead of restricting God to those things that man can understand, we instead submit to God in holding to his revelation of himself.

Marv

 

[DaRev]

[/b]

Then, is it safe to say that God chooses not to choose others? I definately am having a hard time with this. It appears that God is playing with us like toys. Ones he likes, he "saves," the ones He doesn't, he doesn't even pick up. Where did this thought process develope?

No. God desires that all be saved. He has given the gift of faith, life, and salvation to all. Those who are not saved are lost because of their own choice to reject. We can't choose to believe, but we can choose not to.

Didn't one of the criminals being executed alongside Jesus recognize "what" Jesus was, and chose to ask Him to remember him?

No. The other criminal chose to reject God's gift of grace and life.

Why the need to preach the Gospel if God will only take the people he has already decided on to take?

That is precisely the question to ask the Calvinists/Reformed who teach that God chooses some to salvation and others to damnation. That is not what the Scriptures (and thus the LCMS) teaches. God gives the gift to all. The gift is given through the means of grace (word and sacrament) which is why we need to hear the word preached. Because we are sinners we need to receive the gift that God continually gives through His means of grace.

So is it safe to say that God chooses not to choose other people to not become Christians (so to speak)? It just seems odd to think like that.

No. See my first response above.

How can a person reject what they never had? Wouldn't they rather be choosing "freely" to follow Christ?

God has given the gift to all by His grace. Read this post.

Then, if God chooses us, why would need to "do" anything? We just sit in our bars and clubs and wait to see who gets called out?

Because we are by nature sinful. We need to receive God's means of grace regularly. Luther explains in the Small Catechism under the third article of the Creed, "I believe that I cannot by my own strength or reason believe in Jesus Christ my Lord or come to Him. But the Holy Spirit has called me by the Gospel, enlightend me with His gifts, sanctified, and kept me in the one true faith. In the same way He calls, gathers, enlightens, and sanctifies the entire Christian Church." It is God the Holy Spirit who calls us to gather to hear the Gospel preached in its purity and to receive the Sacraments according to Christ's command. Because we sin much, we need to receive God's forgiveness through word and sacrament regularly.

I'm hoping that I come across respectfully. I have a reputation in some other threads of being quite er, direct, shall I say. But, this doctrine of no free will choices kind of shocked me.

It's actually quite amazing when you think about it. We cannot do anything toward our salvation. And when given the choice, we would reject God every time because of our sinful human nature. But despite all of that, God has still chosen us, he forgives us every time we sin against Him. All this is done, not by our "choice" or "acceptance" or "work", but ourely by His grace and His love for us.

 

[DaRev]

Is it that God, who wants none to perish, calls everyone but only a few respond?

A better way to answer would be that many refuse to answer the call, not that a few respond. Our "response" would constitute a "work" on our part for our salvation. It's not that we as believers answer, but that unbelievers refuse to.

 

[TCat]

Thanks Rev, that is a better way to answer

 

[Polycarp_fan]

No. God desires that all be saved. He has given the gift of faith, life, and salvation to all. Those who are not saved are lost because of their own choice to reject. We can't choose to believe, but we can choose not to.



No. The other criminal chose to reject God's gift of grace and life.


That is precisely the question to ask the Calvinists/Reformed who teach that God chooses some to salvation and others to damnation. That is not what the Scriptures (and thus the LCMS) teaches. God gives the gift to all. The gift is given through the means of grace (word and sacrament) which is why we need to hear the word preached. Because we are sinners we need to receive the gift that God continually gives through His means of grace.


No. See my first response above.



God has given the gift to all by His grace. Read this post.



Because we are by nature sinful. We need to receive God's means of grace regularly. Luther explains in the Small Catechism under the third article of the Creed, "I believe that I cannot by my own strength or reason believe in Jesus Christ my Lord or come to Him. But the Holy Spirit has called me by the Gospel, enlightend me with His gifts, sanctified, and kept me in the one true faith. In the same way He calls, gathers, enlightens, and sanctifies the entire Christian Church." It is God the Holy Spirit who calls us to gather to hear the Gospel preached in its purity and to receive the Sacraments according to Christ's command. Because we sin much, we need to receive God's forgiveness through word and sacrament regularly.

It's actually quite amazing when you think about it. We cannot do anything toward our salvation. And when given the choice, we would reject God every time because of our sinful human nature. But despite all of that, God has still chosen us, he forgives us every time we sin against Him. All this is done, not by our "choice" or "acceptance" or "work", but purely by His grace and His love for us.

It's a teaching I will examine. There is a lot to the older denominations that requires much study. My first impression of Lutheranism was and is a good one. But still, I do have a mind that can reason, and for a reason.

Thank you for your apologia.

 

[BigNorsk]

The Formula of Concord in the Book of Concord has a big section on free will. http://www.bookofconcord.org/fc-sd/freewill.html

Free Will is also a section in the Augsburg Confession:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Article XVIII: Of Free Will.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1] Of Free Will they teach that man's will has some liberty to choose civil righteousness, and to work 2] things subject to reason. But it has no power, without the Holy Ghost, to work the righteousness of God, that is, spiritual righteousness; since the natural man 3] receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, 1 Cor. 2, 14; but this righteousness is wrought in the heart when the Holy Ghost is received 4] through the Word. These things are said in as many words by Augustine in his Hypognosticon, Book III: We grant that all men have a free will, free, inasmuch as it has the judgment of reason; not that it is thereby capable, without God, either to begin, or, at least, to complete aught in things pertaining to God, but only in works of this life, whether good 5] or evil. "Good" I call those works which spring from the good in nature, such as, willing to labor in the field, to eat and drink, to have a friend, to clothe oneself, to build a house, to marry a wife, to raise cattle, to learn divers useful arts, or whatsoever good 6]pertains to this life. For all of these things are not without dependence on the providence of God; yea, of Him and through Him they are and have their being. "Evil" 7] I call such works as willing to worship an idol, to commit murder, etc. 8] They condemn the Pelagians and others, who teach that without the Holy Ghost, by the power of nature alone, we are able to love God above all things; also to do the commandments of God as touching "the substance of the act." For, although nature is able in a manner to do the outward work, 9] (for it is able to keep the hands from theft and murder,) yet it cannot produce the inward motions, such as the fear of God, trust in God, chastity, patience, etc.
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Apology of the Augsburg Confession also expands on what the Augsburg Confession says. http://www.bookofconcord.org/augsburgdefense/17_freewill.html[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Augsburg Confession and the Apology mostly focus on the disagreement with Rome. The Formula goes into a debate among reformers.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Marv
[/FONT]

 

[Studeclunker]

Thank you Marv, that was excellent.

The above, from Marv, especially the last part, illustrates my problem with Reformed and Enthusiast worship. It's too much ME and not enough of what God is actively doing in and through us. This is one of the reasons that Lutherans baptise infants. It's a wonderful lesson to the whole congregation that we don't, by our nature, choose God. We resist God with everything in us!

I really detest the 'modern' services. They use the schlock that the Calvary Chapel and Pentacostal churches call hymns. The focus is all wrong! Sorry, this Sunday was particularly... insipid. It's a personal thing.:o

 

[RadMan]

"God would have all men to be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth". Quoting that from memory so it might not be exact.

God is omnipresent. Past, present, future, which means He knows what you are going to do. So even though God's saving grace is offered He knows that many will reject Him. It not the idea of God picking and choosing it's more of us rejecting. It's in some weird sense it is a choice with us and in that it is "free will" but of a different nature.

This doesn't deter us from having free will in a secular nature and affords us the freedom of worldly choices on our own. After all we're not robots. The only problem is that acquiring vast amounts of knowledge can lead us on the path of elevating ourselves above or equal to God's knowledge and that can lead to big trouble. We cannot know the mind of God even though some people now days think they can.

 

[Bread&Fish]

There is an EXCELLENT book on this topic that helped me a great deal. "On Being A Theologian of the Cross," by Gerhard Forde. He uses Luther's Heidelberg Disputation of 1518 to discuss the problem of the traditional idea of free will, as well as good works. And it's fit for the layman. I just found that it helped me and I love to recommend it to others who are struggling with this question.

 

[ricg]

Thanks, Marv. One of the better presentations of this subject I've seen.