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juvenissun

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Juvi, please, take a few minutes away from this board and go read this general overview:

http://community.berea.edu/scienceandfaith/essay05.asp

before you bother posting anything else about evolution as a theory.

When you have done that, I will be happy to listen to where you think the author has it wrong. If you don't, you really have no standing to discuss the matter at all.
OK, how about the idea of Punctuated Equilibrium? There could be tons of questions right there. Do you want me to spell out a few?
 
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juvenissun

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You say your logic is very good. Well, here goes... Just to clarify, sago said there were hundreds of articles from just three major journals on Biology that provide evidence confirming evolution. You said to give you one such paper and you would give back a few unsolved problems related to the issue. I gave you an article.

Let's have some unsolved problems, shall we?
That is what guessed about on your motivation.

Suppose I give you 5 carelessly phrased questions and you do not know how to respond because you do not know the content, how would my argument be meaningful to you?

For example, here is one: Do you know what the isthmus of Panama is? What if I say the timing of that isthmus formation can not even be certain? Would that thrown all the arguments in the article off to the air? Do you understand what am I talking about? If not, why do you threw this article to me and have me ask questions?
 
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Vance

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OK, how about the idea of Punctuated Equilibrium? There could be tons of questions right there. Do you want me to spell out a few?
What I want you to do is read that essay. It is not very long. When you have, then we can discuss PE all you like. I like PE, I think PE works. But let me know when you have read that essay first.
 
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Scotishfury09

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That is what guessed about on your motivation.

Where did that say anything about my motivation?

Suppose I give you 5 carelessly phrased questions and you do not know how to respond because you do not know the content, how would my argument be meaningful to you?

I'm not the one who asked for a paper and then promised questions, am I? I don't see why you haven't just given some questions and see what happens. You've spent so much time and energy in trying not to ask questions that you could have used to actually ask the questions.

For example, here is one: Do you know what the isthmus of Panama is? What if I say the timing of that isthmus formation can not even be certain? Would that thrown all the arguments in the article off to the air? Do you understand what am I talking about? If not, why do you threw this article to me and have me ask questions?

Yes, actually, I do know what the Isthmus of Panama is. It's the section of land in Panama where the Panama Canal is. I understand that it was formed after both the continents of N. and S. America had formed. You're right, I don't know much about it's formation or the problems with it, but you could explain to me why you think it wasn't formed 2.8 to 3.1 million years ago, as the article suggests, and we could discuss that, couldn't we?
 
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sago

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They just keep contributing new evidences to a big model, predictable or not. In the theory of evolution, no matter how many studies has been made, there are STILL so many unanswered questions remained. If so, why would you want to believe the model as a truth?
I think you're completely misunderstanding what is going on. The number of questions is increasing, but it isn't that there are still so many. Questions get answered, but they raise new questions. Now even though the number of questions is increasing, the size of the problem certainly isn't.

To equate number of questions with size of problem is daft.

We've gone, for example, from knowing that genes exist, but not really how they work in the 1950s, to a phenominally detailed understanding of how genes work. There is still plenty more to find out of course, and we have more questions now ("how does gene X control feature Y in the presence of gene Z?" for example, rather than "what are these gene things anyway?").

When Darwin posited the theory of the evolution by natural selectioin he didn't know anything about genes. He predicted what genes would have to do, but then he went on to speculate on a mechanism that was plain dead wrong. At the same time Mendel was discovering that genes work exactly as Darwin said they would have to. Now we know exactly how genes are made up of DNA, the mechanisms in the cell that keep them consistent, the factors that cause them to differ, and we can tell quantitatively that the observed chemical properties of the genome are exactly what is predicted by evolutionary theory and the observation of the rate of genetic drift. It is indescribably staggering to suspect that such an accurate prediction of reality is a fluke. The questions we have about the evolution of the genome are many and complex, but they are much, much smaller in scale than the questions that the biochemists of the 1950s were facing when they were trying to figure out if it was protein or nucleic acids that carried the genetic code.

We clearly know much more about evolution than we did twenty years ago when I first started learning about it. And overwhelmingly the stuff we've found out in that time has directly supported the theory. The remaining stuff has neither supported nor challenged it.


I am not saying the model of evolution is easily falsified.
Actually it is pretty easily falsified.

Just one example: you could falsify evolution in an afternoon if you found completely unrelated DNA in a pair of related phenotypes (or even just unrelated intronic DNA, if you don't want to understand why extrons can be different too). It is a property of life that is directly predicted (and in fact required) by evolution, but has no reason if evolution weren't the source of species differences.

Very easy to falsify. Any biochemistry lab in the world could do it in a few hours. And it would be shattering for the biological sciences.

But every single creature ever studied has shown exactly the opposite.

To say that this balance of evidence is 50/50 is just a joke.
 
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sago

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OK, how about the idea of Punctuated Equilibrium
Go ahead. It is one of the key issues that my research was based on.

I would make sure to find out what it is first though (which means reading something published on it since Gould and Eldridge 1972, particularly studies of fitness landscape dynamics and co-evolution) .

It is a term often banded around but very, very poorly understood by those outside the field. In my experience.

If you start talking about gaps in the fossil record, for example, I'll know right away that Punk Eek isn't what you think it is.
 
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juvenissun

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Go ahead. It is one of the key issues that my research was based on.

Very good. Let's start some learning (at least on my part). Be mercy on me as I am pretty slow on biology. If you used too many jargons, I may quit read it.

According to the idea of PE, speciation could take place pretty fast ( <10E6 yrs). And for some strange reasons, at a particular time in the earth's history, MOST species just started to evolve like crazy for a short period of time (10E6 yrs) and then quit the change for a longer period of time (10E8 yrs). Is this concept right?

If so, what caused this burst of evolutional change? Yes, there are various reasons, such as isolation, environment, etc. etc. But these should all be consequences of a more fundamental change. What is that?
 
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juvenissun

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To equate number of questions with size of problem is daft.

Fine. Then you are saying that a theory with A LOT of questions is still worth to be believed as a truth.

Fine, you do that. Not me. :swoon:
 
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sago

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Fine. Then you are saying that a theory with A LOT of questions is still worth to be believed as a truth.

Fine, you do that. Not me. :swoon:
Hate to fall into Godwin's law, but here's an analogy.

In 1945 the holocaust was poorly understood. There were several big questions: how did it happen, where did it happen, who authorized it, how was it organised. And so on.

Now there are far, far more questions, but they are of a wholy different type: where did Mr X go after surviving, why was family Y not gassed when those they shared quarters with, when did guard Z first arrive at the camp. And so on. Thousands of such questions that holocaust researchers are keen to answer. When they answer those, there will be many others. As time goes on the number of questions can increase, while the size of the questions decreases.

And all this can happen without any sense that the holocaust didn't happen. In fact the more answers, the more evidence it did: concrete and reliable.

To paraphrase you and say that we can't believe the holocaust as truth because there are so many questions surrounding it is....

I believe the veracity of the theory of evolution because of the mountains of evidence we have for it, and because the questions that arise are getting more and more detailed.

Punk Eeek response in a second.
 
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juvenissun

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I believe the veracity of the theory of evolution because of the mountains of evidence we have for it, and because the questions that arise are getting more and more detailed.

Exactly. That is the way it should be for science. But not for historical event like the Holocaust.

I always think the key to the puzzle of evolution is on the study of genetics (is that your field? lucky or unlucky you.), but not on the fossils. Paleontology is fun, but it would get nowhere in confirming the theory (Sorry, Mallon). If so, then the focus would be shifted to DNA and stuff :sick: . I can see the questions are mounting higher and higher. It may go slowly toward the true answer. But nobody knows what that would eventually be. It could be ended with something like what Creationism suggested.
 
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sago

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Very good. Let's start some learning (at least on my part). Be mercy on me as I am pretty slow on biology. If you used too many jargons, I may quit read it.

According to the idea of PE, speciation could take place pretty fast ( <10E6 yrs). And for some strange reasons, at a particular time in the earth's history, MOST species just started to evolve like crazy for a short period of time (10E6 yrs) and then quit the change for a longer period of time (10E8 yrs). Is this concept right?

If so, what caused this burst of evolutional change? Yes, there are various reasons, such as isolation, environment, etc. etc. But these should all be consequences of a more fundamental change. What is that?
Depends if you are actually eager to learn... I'll give this one go...

According to the idea of PE, speciation could take place pretty fast
Yes. The major legacy of PE is that we understand evolution doesn't happen at a uniform rate (some of the more extreme claims of PE have been roundly refuted by evidence).

In the 35 years since PE was put forward, this has been shown in many contexts as well as the fossil record (which is what SJG+Eldridge were originally drawing from).

quit the change for a longer period of time (10E8 yrs). Is this concept right?
No, not really. There would still be observable genetic change (particularly in non-functional parts of the genome*).

The question is a bit backwards.

Evolution isn't a process independent of the things it is acting on. Darwin's key insight is that it happens in response to competition for a biological niche (where niches are in turn functions of the other species in the environment - hence co-evolution).

Over large periods of time the environment can remain relatively stable, so a balance arises between the species forming the ecosystem in that environment. (In game theory this would be called a Nash Equillibrium: the math of coevolution is very similar to the math of game theory).

We know that it is _very_ difficult for evolution to improve on species that are highly adapted to their niche. Evolution is quite a fast process when a species has a clear optimisation path, however, particularly with very large populations (and evolution predicts that populations should normally exist at their Malthusian limits). But it only goes as far as to find a local maximum on the fitness landscape: in systems theory terms it is a hillclimbing algorithm. In some cases species can enter direct 1 on 1 arms races, but even this can only go so far: eventually the resources expended on the arms race will have to balance the ability of individuals in a species to function as organisms.

So this equillibrium holds for a while (this is the equillibrium in PE, it isn't the same as stasis).

Eventually something changes. Either the environment changes, or one species does find a new adaptation that improves its chances. Often environmental changes are gradual, and it can be a long time before the ground rules are sufficiently different for a new set of adaptations to be favored.

What happens then is that there is a domino effect: old niches disappear and new niches form, and species flood into those niches. The fitness landscape deforms, and the hillclimbers of evolution rush to the new peaks. These cascades of change provide the context for increased likelihood of speciation events. But eventually equillibrium returns.

Now, the interesting thing about this is that I've said all this in narrative terms (pitching it roughly at a good high-school student level). But modern evolutionary theory, particularly genetic evolution, isn't narrative. The substance of the narrative I've tried to express is entirely mathematical, and quantitative. We can build models, run the math and work out exactly what we would expect to see.

And, if you haven't guessed already, co-evolutionary predictions are born out by quantitative measures of genetic evolution.

There are other features of evolution that also add to the jerkiness, but that don't depend on co-evolution. But they are less significant for the overall dynamiucs of evolution: On their own they don't account for things like mass correlations of speciation events in the immediate aftermath of a new adaptation or major environmental change, for example. My specialism is a case in point here: there are features of the genome that speed up evolutionary change when it is needed, but allow stability when it is not. They don't explain the PE itself, but they do show that the genome is adapted to its rigours (this is known as evolvability in the literature).

When Punk Eek was first proposed the prevailing (and to be fair tacit) thought in evolution was that the rate of species change was search-limited: in other words species changed as fast as they could find new improvements. PE raised questions, that received research and answers, and we understand now that the rate of change (at least phenotypically) is niche-limited.

Much of the hyperbole around PE has arisen because people think that SJG was challenging the foundation of evolutionary theory (he would have been horrified [edit: thinking again, more likely highly amused] by the idea). In fact he was pointing out a pattern in the evidence that (while completely fitting into the theory) wasn't directly predicted by the theory. Notice the direction of the implication there: you can't say that because it didn't predict the pattern that it predicted a different pattern - the theory was just not detailed enough to have an opinion either way.

Please don't assume that I've told you everything about this, there is much, much more to know before you could hope to make sensible predictions based on this theory, or even evaluate evidence in its light. I studied this stuff full-time for 4 years before I got to grips with it properly, so I can tell you for certain that 500 words on a forum is barely scratching the surface.

---

* On a slight aside intronic drift is a feature that almost seems designed [:)] to allow evolution to confirm its predictions.

A large proportion of your DNA codes for nothing. And even those bits that do code for something tend to be split into separate chunks. When your DNA is transcribed in the nucleus of your cell a complex series of proteins and enzymes graft together bits of genes from various sections of your genetic material. Lots of the DNA never gets turned into anything. It gets ignored or trimmed out.

Because there is no evolutionary pressure [this is a big simplification, but the reasons it is are quite complex] on this DNA (it doesn't affect the creatures ability to survive and reproduce), it accumulates mutations at a reasonably regular rate. We can use it, for example, to find matches between individuals for family and race.

We can compare these bits of intronic code between species. And we find that species that we suspect of having a recent common ancestor have less differences in this code, and those having a more distance ancestor have more differences [actually there are many, many other ways to do this kind of comparison, not just introns, but still - I'm talking about introns here].

Not only that but by calculating the differences we can find the age of divergence (because we know from measurements the rate of mutation) and the intronic dating of those common ancestors corresponds very well with datings from the fossil record.
 
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sago

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Paleontology vs Genetics

Not true, Genetics is very powerful, but you can only collect sequenceable genetic material from fairly recent species (excluding some sci-fi faves like flies in amber).

Even though genetics is a major new frotier in evolutionary studies, paleontology is still crucial. In fact, many important questions in evolution are phenotypical, and we won't understand enough about genetics for [at least] decades to reliably predict phenotypes from their genotypes. In these cases paleontology knocks genetics into a cocked hat.

I couldn't even begin to make progress in Mallon's doctorate area with genetic tools alone. And he would stand just as much chance of finding answers to my questions with fossils.

The important thing is that paleontology and genetics, where they are able to cross-predict, agree to a staggering degree. The fact that they do give us reason to be confident that each set of tools is coherent, so when we apply them to areas toutsides the other's reach, we can be more confident of the findings (obviously this is a massive simplification, since there are many many other biological disciplines in evolutionary studies than these two, and any serious piece of research draws and correlates with more than one).

It could be ended with something like what Creationism suggested.
It really couldn't, any more than modern physics could suddenly find that the world is flat. Or that we'd find by some new bit of information that the holocaust never happened.

There is a mass of concrete evidence that falsifies the YEC account. That means it will never be a credible hypothesis, because it has already been shown to contradict the evidence.

At the very worst we would find that the real mechanism operated exactly like evolution 99% of the time.
 
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Vance

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Yes, that is one of the great evidences for evolution: that so many fields of science independently come to conclusions that fit the concept entirely, and mutually fit together like a puzzle perfectly. It could be that the genetics work, but the fossil record does support it, or that the biogeography says one thing and the nested heirarchy says something else. But they don't, they all agree in almost every area. And, on the rare occasions that they don't seem to agree, then we learn something more about how it all works, refine the fringe details of the theory and keep moving.

So far, every discipline involved has supported the major tenets of the theory and the general concept of evolution from common ancestors over billions of years.
 
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juvenissun

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Now, the interesting thing about this is that I've said all this in narrative terms (pitching it roughly at a good high-school student level). But modern evolutionary theory, particularly genetic evolution, isn't narrative. The substance of the narrative I've tried to express is entirely mathematical, and quantitative. We can build models, run the math and work out exactly what we would expect to see.

This is what I am waiting for. Could you cite me a reference of this biological modeling? I bet it is about genetics, but not about paleontology.
 
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juvenissun

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So this equillibrium holds for a while (this is the equillibrium in PE, it isn't the same as stasis).

How do you qualify a stable vs. an unstable environment for evolution in a global sense? (so that you could have a longer or a shorter period of equilibrium).
 
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Vance

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I am breaking my own rule here since I doubt you have read that article, but I think you are of the impression that PE happens on a global scale, and not on an individual species scale. While there may have been periods where there was more "rapid" (in geologic terms) evolution globally (ie, the Cambrian), my understanding of PE is that change happens faster in a gene pool when that particular gene pool is under greater pressures to change. That will happen with individual species at different times and at different rates. It might be an loss of a food type, or an increase in a certain predator or a new disease, or a local weather change, etc.

Of course, I may have an older view of PE going on and sago can set me straight.
 
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juvenissun

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I am breaking my own rule here since I doubt you have read that article, but I think you are of the impression that PE happens on a global scale, and not on an individual species scale. While there may have been periods where there was more "rapid" (in geologic terms) evolution globally (ie, the Cambrian), my understanding of PE is that change happens faster in a gene pool when that particular gene pool is under greater pressures to change. That will happen with individual species at different times and at different rates. It might be an loss of a food type, or an increase in a certain predator or a new disease, or a local weather change, etc.

Of course, I may have an older view of PE going on and sago can set me straight.
Yes, I do have a global view in my mind.

There are so many species of life. If the concept of PE is valid, then there has to be a period of short time when a statistically significant amount of species evolved fast all together.

Is that true?
 
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