Pentecost "gifts"

[Mumbie]

Today at church ("Charasmatic Evangelical") the sermon was on Pentecost and all the gifts bestowed on Christ's followers; prophecy, the gift of tongues, etc. The first day of Pentecost, apparently 3,000 were converted.

My church claims that the gifts given to Christ's followers 2,000 years ago, still apply to us today. Many of them speak in "tongues" (they repeat the same phrase over and over) which I am not comfortable with as none of it can be translated (Paul said speaking in tongues was pointless if no one could translate, or words to that effect.). My church fervently believes that Jesus' words to his apostles ("I will be with you till the end of the age") pertains to all of us.

So, my question is--what do you believe? If we all had these "gifts" in such abundance, why is the world in the state it's in?!

 

[Going Merry]

Shamans can do that stuff too.
They don't even believe in Jesus.

 

[3 Angels Messages]

Today at church ("Charasmatic Evangelical") the sermon was on Pentecost and all the gifts bestowed on Christ's followers; prophecy, the gift of tongues, etc. The first day of Pentecost, apparently 3,000 were converted.

My church claims that the gifts given to Christ's followers 2,000 years ago, still apply to us today. Many of them speak in "tongues" (they repeat the same phrase over and over) which I am not comfortable with as none of it can be translated (Paul said speaking in tongues was pointless if no one could translate, or words to that effect.). My church fervently believes that Jesus' words to his apostles ("I will be with you till the end of the age") pertains to all of us.

So, my question is--what do you believe? If we all had these "gifts" in such abundance, why is the world in the state it's in?!

May I recommend a study on this subject? Speech & Tongues Of Fire - The Biblical TRUTH

...you may also like to consider a 'pocket book', Tract: Understanding Tongues

...or this video presentation, sermon: Understanding Tongues

Speech and Tongues of Fire:

What does the Bible have to say upon the subject of our speech, upon our witness, upon or language, for "Who hath made man's mouth" [Exodus 4:11;p]?

What does the Bible have to say about a specific gift of the HOLY SPIRIT, the gift of "tongues"?

Does the gift still exist today? How can one determine if it is of the right "spirit"?

GOD does give "gifts unto men" [Ephesians 4:8;p], but the devil, a "murderer...abode not in the truth...liar" [John 8:44;p] loves "confusion" [1 Corinthians 14:33;p] and loves to "deceive" [Matthew 24:5;p; Revelation 20:3,8;p] and he counterfeits the true gifts and miracles of GOD to draw followers after himself, "by the iniquity of thy traffick"[Ezekiel 28:18;p], just as he did with 1/3rd of the angels in heaven [Revelation 12:4]. How then can we tell the difference?

The Bible says...

To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them. [Isaiah 8:20]


Since there are two primary spirits in this world, that of GOD, and that of devils...


[1.] [GOD] "...the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you..." [Romans 8:11;p]

[2.] [satan/devils] "...the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:" [Ephesians 2:2;p]


...and satan/devils can do miracles, signs and great wonders to deceive, and maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men...

"...they are the spirits of devils, working miracles,..." [Revelation 16:14;p]

...and "...whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders..." [2 Thessalonians 2:9;p]

...and he [satan] counterfeits the HOLY fire of GOD:

"And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men," [Revelation 13:13]

...and the devil has his counterfeit of the Biblical gift of tongues...

"And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs [come] out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet." [Revelation 16:13] [an unholy trinity, Dragon, Beast, False Prophet]

...the power of the frog, an unclean animal [representing the unclean spirits, devils], is in its tongue, how then shall we know and not be led into error? For wicked men will wax worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived, orating with "flattering lips...the tongue that speaketh proud things" [Psalms 12:3;p], and even "great words" "against the MOST HIGH" [Daniel 7:11,25]:

And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. [Revelation 18:2]

But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. ]2 Timothy 3:13]

Their throat [is] an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips: [Romans 3:13]

For [there is] no faithfulness in their mouth; their inward part [is] very wickedness; their throat [is] an open sepulchre; they flatter with their tongue. [Psalms 5:9]

His mouth is full of cursing and deceit and fraud: under his tongue [is] mischief and vanity. [Psalms 10:7]

Who have said, With our tongue will we prevail; our lips [are] our own: who [is] lord over us? [Psalms 12:4]

Thou givest thy mouth to evil, and thy tongue frameth deceit. [Psalms 50:19]

They set their mouth against the heavens, and their tongue walketh through the earth. [Psalms 73:9]

For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple. [Romans 16:18]

So, do we go by our "eyes", our "ears", our "hearts", our "feelings", our "flesh" or our "experience"?

These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit. [Jude 1:19]

Or do we go by the WORD of GOD instead, an "it is written", or a "thus saith the LORD"?

Do we want to know for certain what the Bible teaches on these things?

Whether what we believe is of the TRUTH or a lie?

There is only one way to know...

"...search the scriptures..." [John 5:39;p]

Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. [1 Thessalonians 5:21]

And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. [1 Corinthians 14:32]

The "scriptures cannot be broken" [John 10:35;p], are given by "inspiration of GOD" [2 Timothy 3:16;p], and we are to be like the noble Bereans, "more noble than those in Thessalonica" [Acts 17:11;p] and we are to go "line upon line, line upon line" [Isaiah 28:10;p], "rightly dividing the WORD of TRUTH" [2 Timothy 2:15;p], to "Despise not prophesyings." [1 Thessalonians 5:20] and to know that "no prophesy of the scripture is of any private interpretation" [2 Peter 1:20;p], being guided by the HOLY SPIRIT, HE who leads us "into all TRUTH" [John 16:13;p] we should be able together to look at the WORD of GOD on the subject of "tongues" and come to the same conclusions, for as GOD says, "Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD..." [Isaiah 1:18;p].
So, "Quench not the Spirit." [1 Thessalonians 5:19], but "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world." [1 John 4:1].


There are many false spirits...

"And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light." [2 Corinthians 11:14],

For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, [which] go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. [Revelation 16:14]...

...yet, GOD is the GOD of TRUTH...

...if you would like me to continue the study here, and post it here, instead of travelling to the first link above [ Speech & Tongues Of Fire - The Biblical TRUTH ], let me know.

 

[Mumbie]

I don't doubt that something miraculous--powerful happened at the original Pentecost, but I'm afraid those gifts weren't meant for the likes of us.

 

[Mumbie]

3Angels,
I take it you are a speaker of Tongues. Can any of it be translated so that those of us without the gifts can understand? The way I understand it, one of the original Pentecostal gifts was to be able to speak in foreign tongues which were recognisable to other Earthlings.

We see people like Benny Hinn on tv "healing" people, we hear about people getting healed in a much more quiet and dignified way at Lourdes. But surely if every Christian was endowed with these gifts, we could move mountains. The world could be healed.

 

[SolomonVII]

I think that Charismatic Churches understood the gift of tongues to be of two types; one involves the speaking the foreign languages of other peoples and cultures, and the second involves speaking in the tongues of angels.

The first gift is rare today, to the point where many doubt that it even exists. The second, in my mind, is a very pure form of worship, involves letting oneself get outside of one's thoughts for a while and communicate with God on a purely emotional level in which no discernibly rational discourse is involved at all.

I think St Paul notes the shortcoming in speaking in tongues, if charity is absent. I can't recall so much if he addresses the shortcoming of charity being there in the absence of faith, although the overall message is that faith is what makes everything else possible, charity, tongues, and being receptive to the seven graces of the Spirit in general.

Speaking in the tongues of angels is an expression of faith, just as charity is. It does involve a surrender of the will, and I don't know that everybody can be totally comfortable with that.

 

[3 Angels Messages]

3Angels,
I take it you are a speaker of Tongues. Can any of it be translated so that those of us without the gifts can understand? The way I understand it, one of the original Pentecostal gifts was to be able to speak in foreign tongues which were recognisable to other Earthlings.

We see people like Benny Hinn on tv "healing" people, we hear about people getting healed in a much more quiet and dignified way at Lourdes. But surely if every Christian was endowed with these gifts, we could move mountains. The world could be healed.

Hi Mumbie,

Do I believe in all the Gifts of the Holy Spirit? Yes.

Do I believe that every Gift [as then, Pentecost] is available to us today, as the Holy Spirit gives according to His will? Yes.

Do I believe that there is a great deception in this area, and that there are serious counterfeits of satan being done in the name of the Lord? Yes.

Have I ever spoken in the Biblical definition of Tongues? No.

Please reconsider the study itself, and please re-read the post - http://www.christianforums.com/t7656550/#post60520598

If you would like, I can post the Biblical study here.

 

[SolomonVII]

1 Corinthians 13:1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.
I think this page gives a pretty good record of what the Bible has to say about the charismatic gift of tongues.

 

[Shane R]

The gifts of the Holy Spirit fall into two categories: ordinary and miraculous. The ordinary gifts are enumerated in Eph 4:11-12 and other texts. The miraculous gifts are enumerated in Mk 16:17-18 and 1 Cor 12 and other texts. Miraculous gifts were given by the laying on of hands of an apostle (see Acts 8). The gifts were for confirmation of the word and edification of the church. Their use was governed by the power of the Holy Spirit, not the will of the person, in accordance with the purposes described and principles of order and decorum (see 1 Cor 14).

I hope that no one would argue against the presence of ordinary gifts in the modern church. The controversy always comes down to the miraculous gifts. I believe that they were temporary and certainly not a requirement for salvation, as some of the hard-line Pentecostals have claimed. As the church came out of its primitive form into a more organized form the miraculous gifts faded. History attests to this.

Additionally, the modern Charismatic practice typically fails to represent the ancient model. Also, the ecstatic tongue speaking has been observed among Hindus and American Indians who follow traditional spiritualism. There are hundreds of places where phony 'healings' have been exposed.

 

[3 Angels Messages]

Strange Fire [Walter Veith]:
225 - Strange Fire - Amazing Discoveries TV
Total Onslaught - 225 Strange Fire - YouTube

 

[christseeker45]

Today at church ("Charasmatic Evangelical") the sermon was on Pentecost and all the gifts bestowed on Christ's followers; prophecy, the gift of tongues, etc. The first day of Pentecost, apparently 3,000 were converted.

My church claims that the gifts given to Christ's followers 2,000 years ago, still apply to us today. Many of them speak in "tongues" (they repeat the same phrase over and over) which I am not comfortable with as none of it can be translated (Paul said speaking in tongues was pointless if no one could translate, or words to that effect.). My church fervently believes that Jesus' words to his apostles ("I will be with you till the end of the age") pertains to all of us.

So, my question is--what do you believe? If we all had these "gifts" in such abundance, why is the world in the state it's in?!

I don't know if we have them today or not. Nothing in the Bible tells us weather we will have the in the 21st century so we have to go outside the Bible so some say the gifts are still here and others say they are not.

 

[PaladinValer]

Today at church ("Charasmatic Evangelical") the sermon was on Pentecost and all the gifts bestowed on Christ's followers; prophecy, the gift of tongues, etc. The first day of Pentecost, apparently 3,000 were converted.

My church claims that the gifts given to Christ's followers 2,000 years ago, still apply to us today. Many of them speak in "tongues" (they repeat the same phrase over and over) which I am not comfortable with as none of it can be translated (Paul said speaking in tongues was pointless if no one could translate, or words to that effect.). My church fervently believes that Jesus' words to his apostles ("I will be with you till the end of the age") pertains to all of us.

So, my question is--what do you believe? If we all had these "gifts" in such abundance, why is the world in the state it's in?!

The charismata are real, but not as Pentecostals or other Charismatics think. The real charismata are those things that people are naturally good at, which are their way to contribute to the Holy Church. Some are naturally good at teaching, whereas others are naturally good with children; some are good with writing, whereas others are good at speaking. All of these are potentially charismata.

The idea of "tongues" is especially erroneously taught by some. It isn't some "Divine language" but is, literally, the gift of being a polyglot and gifted with the ability of languages. If you were to read what actually happened on Pentecost, the Apostles were not babbling but speaking in the languages of the Gentile peoples around them. In other words, real languages.

The idea of an "angelic tongue" is not possible anyway since celestial beings, being purely spiritual by nature, thereby lack a tongue, mouth, lips, and larnyx.

 

[Mumbie]

Thanks everyone, for your replies. I find it hard to believe these gifts (if they are real) have any significance. If they were real, people would be flocking to the churches to get in on this thing!

 

[Albion]

Today at church ("Charasmatic Evangelical") the sermon was on Pentecost and all the gifts bestowed on Christ's followers; prophecy, the gift of tongues, etc. The first day of Pentecost, apparently 3,000 were converted.

My church claims that the gifts given to Christ's followers 2,000 years ago, still apply to us today. Many of them speak in "tongues" (they repeat the same phrase over and over) which I am not comfortable with as none of it can be translated (Paul said speaking in tongues was pointless if no one could translate, or words to that effect.). My church fervently believes that Jesus' words to his apostles ("I will be with you till the end of the age") pertains to all of us.

So, my question is--what do you believe? If we all had these "gifts" in such abundance, why is the world in the state it's in?!

The gifts were given in the early days of the church to facilitate the spread of the faith into the world. Having accomplished their purpose, they ceased or at least became extremely rare--which amounts to the same thing when compared to the claims of today's Pentecostals who say that every real Christian will experience them and that they will not cease until the end of the church age. But in the 19th century when there was a lot of interest in many quarters in studying the original church and getting back to it (the movement that produced the Disciples of Christ, the Mormons, the Jehovah's Witnesses, Anglo-Catholics, and many others), some Christians rediscovered the gifts, and people began exhibiting the ones that can be imitated. You gave one example of the artificiality of these alleged gifts, and there are many more.

 

[SolomonVII]

I don't know if we have them today or not. Nothing in the Bible tells us weather we will have the in the 21st century so we have to go outside the Bible so some say the gifts are still here and others say they are not.

Those that experience the gifts say that we have them; those that don't experience them, say that they are no longer there.

There is a charismatic movement in Catholicism too.

 

[christseeker45]

Those that experience the gifts say that we have them; those that don't experience them, say that they are no longer there.

There is a charismatic movement in Catholicism too.

Yes I know However neither position is really addressed in Scripture

 

[SolomonVII]

Yes I know However neither position is really addressed in Scripture

As far as I know, Scripture does talk about gifts of the Spirit. I am not sure why people would say that Scripture doesn't mention the gifts.

 

[christseeker45]

As far as I know, Scripture does talk about gifts of the Spirit. I am not sure why people would say that Scripture doesn't mention the gifts.

That's not what I said. Scripture is silent on if they continue in the 21st century or not. In this case tongues

 

[SolomonVII]

That's not what I said. Scripture is silent on if they continue in the 21st century or not.

Scripture is silent on anything continuing into the twenty-first century, or even if there would be a twenty-first century—or even a first century! Many disciples assumed that Christ would return within their lifetime, before their generation passed away.

Scripture on the other hand is not silent on Jesus sending his Spirit as our comforter and our advocate and for leading us into all truths until the time of his return.

 

[Gnarwhal]

My position is summed up by what others in this thread have expressed: I think the extraordinary gifts were something used in the first century by Christ and the Apostles to confirm the gospel.

However I think the only gifts that have continued on to this day are the ordinary gifts like teaching, administration, service, etc. I think there are some that honestly think they're speaking in tongues but I'm not convinced what they're experiencing is one and the same with the tongues experienced at Pentecost. Like PaladinValer said, they were speaking an actual language to the gentiles around them.

Like the rest of the 'extraordinary' gifts, they had a specific purpose within the era of the Roman Empire 'at the culmination of the ages'.