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Pentecost dreams change

Tellyontellyon

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During Pentecost all sorts of wisdom and knowledge was passed down to the disciples, and after that there was further guidance, e.g., Paul, Peter and John all had direct communications and revelatory visions and dreams.
Paul wasn't a follower of Jesus until long after the crucifixion... so I'm guessing that further revelation and guidance had happened since the Bible was assembled...
Further revelations and guidance may add nuance or show more clearly what God wants us to know...

Questions...q

* There seems to be such a range of Christian interpretations of the scriptures... Is guidance from God still possible... Is God going to clear things up with further revelations and guidance?

* When John's revelation ends he says no words should be added... but was he only referring to his own book of revelations... or did he mean the whole Bible... had it been fully assembled when the revelation was written?

* Is God active right now in people's hearts, turning them towards a truer understanding of the scriptures and what we should understand of Him?
 

Maria Billingsley

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During Pentecost all sorts of wisdom and knowledge was passed down to the disciples, and after that there was further guidance, e.g., Paul, Peter and John all had direct communications and revelatory visions and dreams.
Paul wasn't a follower of Jesus until long after the crucifixion... so I'm guessing that further revelation and guidance had happened since the Bible was assembled...
Further revelations and guidance may add nuance or show more clearly what God wants us to know...

Questions...q

* There seems to be such a range of Christian interpretations of the scriptures... Is guidance from God still possible... Is God going to clear things up with further revelations and guidance?

* When John's revelation ends he says no words should be added... but was he only referring to his own book of revelations... or did he mean the whole Bible... had it been fully assembled when the revelation was written?

* Is God active right now in people's hearts, turning them towards a truer understanding of the scriptures and what we should understand of Him?
Yes, He is active through His Holy Spirit given to all who believe in Him. Blessings.

Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.
 
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ViaCrucis

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The Church already has its foundation, what she needs to do is be faithful to it. That's the role of pastors, to act as shepherds. And that's what the Holy Spirit does as the Spirit of Truth who keeps us in the truth.

In the Lutheran tradition we believe that the proper methodology for keeping the Church on track is by maintaining that Scripture alone is the Norma Primaris and Norma Normans ("Chief Rule" and "Unruled Rule") for the Church. The role of secondary sources of authority (Norma Secundus), such as the Creeds are Norma Normata ("Ruled Rule"), as Scripture has preeminence and other guidelines and rules and the like are subject and subsequent to Scripture.

The Church, therefore, holds to what she has received from the beginning, as testified to in Holy Scripture, which is believed and confessed.

Since Lutherans don't believe in the Church's infallibility the way Catholics and Orthodox do, and unlike Catholics we do not believe in an infallible Magisterium; this means that the work of upholding the faith, in a way, falls to all of us. Not by our having our own private and personal interpretations of the Bible, but by sticking together in a common confession. That is why we have the Lutheran Confessions as a common confession of faith; believing that these confessions are faithful, and therefore binding, on account of Scripture.

Obviously non-Lutherans, whether Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant, disagree with us. But nevertheless this is the Lutheran way.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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During Pentecost all sorts of wisdom and knowledge was passed down to the disciples, and after that there was further guidance, e.g., Paul, Peter and John all had direct communications and revelatory visions and dreams.
Paul wasn't a follower of Jesus until long after the crucifixion... so I'm guessing that further revelation and guidance had happened since the Bible was assembled...
Further revelations and guidance may add nuance or show more clearly what God wants us to know...

Questions...q

* There seems to be such a range of Christian interpretations of the scriptures... Is guidance from God still possible... Is God going to clear things up with further revelations and guidance?

* When John's revelation ends he says no words should be added... but was he only referring to his own book of revelations... or did he mean the whole Bible... had it been fully assembled when the revelation was written?

* Is God active right now in people's hearts, turning them towards a truer understanding of the scriptures and what we should understand of Him?
yes to all three ...
 
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Tellyontellyon

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The Church already has its foundation, what she needs to do is be faithful to it. That's the role of pastors, to act as shepherds. And that's what the Holy Spirit does as the Spirit of Truth who keeps us in the truth.

In the Lutheran tradition we believe that the proper methodology for keeping the Church on track is by maintaining that Scripture alone is the Norma Primaris and Norma Normans ("Chief Rule" and "Unruled Rule") for the Church. The role of secondary sources of authority (Norma Secundus), such as the Creeds are Norma Normata ("Ruled Rule"), as Scripture has preeminence and other guidelines and rules and the like are subject and subsequent to Scripture.

The Church, therefore, holds to what she has received from the beginning, as testified to in Holy Scripture, which is believed and confessed.

Since Lutherans don't believe in the Church's infallibility the way Catholics and Orthodox do, and unlike Catholics we do not believe in an infallible Magisterium; this means that the work of upholding the faith, in a way, falls to all of us. Not by our having our own private and personal interpretations of the Bible, but by sticking together in a common confession. That is why we have the Lutheran Confessions as a common confession of faith; believing that these confessions are faithful, and therefore binding, on account of Scripture.

Obviously non-Lutherans, whether Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant, disagree with us. But nevertheless this is the Lutheran way.

-CryptoLutheran
But scripture itself tells us of continuing revelation and the guidance of the holy spirit.

Can that really be solidified into a tradition? Even the books of the Bible form part of tradition... there are different Bibles with different numbers of books... this is still argued over.

That you call yourself a Lutheran and say there are other traditions that disagree with you proves that things are not done and dusted. There isn't even a single creed that all those that call themselves Christians follow... I hear some Christians say this group or that group aren't really Christians.

Some of the variations in belief and practice are varied enough to be incompatible.
What's the point of taking about consistentcy if there are so many different traditions... and they all think their way is right... and some, that 'only they' are saved.

Surely more revelation and guidance is needed..? It's hard to be sure about the truth!

I'm told on here 'believe first' and then afterwards I will see the spirit working in me...
... but there seems to be so much variation in belief and tradition that there is a danger of cherry picking the kind of God that suits me... Isn't that idolatry? Selecting a God in my image?

How do you know your tradition is right and the others.. less so.
 
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But scripture itself tells us of continuing revelation and the guidance of the holy spirit.

Can that really be solidified into a tradition? Even the books of the Bible form part of tradition... there are different Bibles with different numbers of books... this is still argued over.

That you call yourself a Lutheran and say there are other traditions that disagree with you proves that things are not done and dusted. There isn't even a single creed that all those that call themselves Christians follow... I hear some Christians say this group or that group aren't really Christians.

Some of the variations in belief and practice are varied enough to be incompatible.
What's the point of taking about consistentcy if there are so many different traditions... and they all think their way is right... and some, that 'only they' are saved.

Surely more revelation and guidance is needed..? It's hard to be sure about the truth!

I'm told on here 'believe first' and then afterwards I will see the spirit working in me...
... but there seems to be so much variation in belief and tradition that there is a danger of cherry picking the kind of God that suits me... Isn't that idolatry? Selecting a God in my image?

How do you know your tradition is right and the others.. less so.
" ...there is a danger of cherry picking the kind of God that suits me... Isn't that idolatry? Selecting a God in my image?"

excellent observation ....
 
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OldAbramBrown

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* When John's revelation ends he says no words should be added... but was he only referring to his own book of revelations... or did he mean the whole Bible... had it been fully assembled when the revelation was written?

* Is God active right now in people's hearts, turning them towards a truer understanding of the scriptures and what we should understand of Him?
Last two questions:

- the whole of it
- Yes, those who let Him
 
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BobRyan

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During Pentecost all sorts of wisdom and knowledge was passed down to the disciples, and after that there was further guidance, e.g., Paul, Peter and John all had direct communications and revelatory visions and dreams.
Paul wasn't a follower of Jesus until long after the crucifixion... so I'm guessing that further revelation and guidance had happened since the Bible was assembled...
Further revelations and guidance may add nuance or show more clearly what God wants us to know...
all true.
Questions...q

* There seems to be such a range of Christian interpretations of the scriptures... Is guidance from God still possible...
Yes - and He has done it.
Is God going to clear things up with further revelations and guidance?
Yes - and He has
* When John's revelation ends he says no words should be added... but was he only referring to his own book of revelations... or did he mean the whole Bible... had it been fully assembled when the revelation was written?
John writes the book of Revelation and then returns to Ephesus and writes the Gospel of John.

But that did not end the gift of prophecy -- as we see in Acts and in 1 Cor 14 prophets existed in the NT that did not write scripture even though they were inspired by God and their messages came straight from God to the church.
* Is God active right now in people's hearts, turning them towards a truer understanding of the scriptures and what we should understand of Him?
yes - absolutely.


Eph 4 says that the gift of prophecy (as well as other spiritual gifts - was to continue until the coming of Christ) --

Eph 4:
9 (Now this expression, “He ascended,” what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.) 11 And He gave some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelists, some as pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the building up of the body of Christ; 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. 14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of people, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; 15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, that is, Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.

The NT teaching is that prophecy is to continue as a spiritual gift.

1 Cor 14:1 Pursue love, yet earnestly desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. 2 For the one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people, but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries. 3 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for edification, exhortation, and consolation. 4 The one who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but the one who prophesies edifies the church.

=================================

And the response to prophets is often just as Jesus stated in Matt 23

29 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs for the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous, 30 and you say, ‘If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers. 33 You snakes, you offspring of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?


34 “Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will flog in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, 35 so that upon you will fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who have been sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!
 
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ViaCrucis

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But scripture itself tells us of continuing revelation and the guidance of the holy spirit.

Can that really be solidified into a tradition? Even the books of the Bible form part of tradition... there are different Bibles with different numbers of books... this is still argued over.

That you call yourself a Lutheran and say there are other traditions that disagree with you proves that things are not done and dusted. There isn't even a single creed that all those that call themselves Christians follow... I hear some Christians say this group or that group aren't really Christians.

Some of the variations in belief and practice are varied enough to be incompatible.
What's the point of taking about consistentcy if there are so many different traditions... and they all think their way is right... and some, that 'only they' are saved.

Surely more revelation and guidance is needed..? It's hard to be sure about the truth!

I'm told on here 'believe first' and then afterwards I will see the spirit working in me...
... but there seems to be so much variation in belief and tradition that there is a danger of cherry picking the kind of God that suits me... Isn't that idolatry? Selecting a God in my image?

How do you know your tradition is right and the others.. less so.

I try to avoid telling other people to be Lutheran just because I am, though I am convinced that Lutheranism is true. Simply saying that doesn't mean a lot to others, and it can come across as too "join-my-team-y".

But what I will say and talk about is how I ended up where I am and why.

I wasn't raised Lutheran, and in the religious environment I was raised I didn't even know anything about Lutherans except that they were "similar to Catholics" which didn't mean much either since I didn't know anything about Catholicism outside of a few (and often wrong) things I heard in passing from non-Catholics.

I won't get too deep into it here, but suffice to say that by the time I was 18 I had begun questioning some things and had began trying to figure out what to believe. I made my anchor point in in that search this: That Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that He really did have a Church and that He really did call together a group of people He called His Apostles, and those Apostles taught--by the guidance and power of the Holy Spirit--the truth about Christ and who Christ is and what Christ did to and for the world.

In other words, my anchor point was I should believe as the Apostles believed.

So one place I started looking for insight, to understand and interpret the words of the Apostles, was to look at what early Christians--those who had learned directly from the Apostles and were members of congregations started by the Apostles--thought, believed, and what they did. And, actually, I was surprised at just how obvious it seemed to me that the early writings of Christians looked like the same things I read in the Bible. So that when I had the Bible on one side, and the writings of early Christians (the fathers of the Church) on the other, things lined up.

So I was able to conclude fairly reasonably that there wasn't some sudden breakdown in Christianity, as though there was this early generation of Christians who believed true things, and immediately the second and third generation was somehow something else. It was the same faith preserved from the first generation, to the second, to the third, and fourth, etc.

So what this told me was that part of what "hold firm to the traditions which you have received" (2 Thessalonians 2:15) and "earnestly contend for the faith once and for all delivered to the saints" (Jude 1:3) meant was being grounded in historic Christianity.

The second thing, and why I am a Lutheran rather than Catholic or Orthodox, is--to put it short and sweet--the Gospel. Lutheranism wasn't even on my radar at the time, but one of my constant and long-time nagging spiritual burdens was the deep existential dread of my salvation, this deep sense of dread about whether God loved me, a sinner. In those [Protestant] traditions I had been raised I had, and in some ways I only learned to be able to articular and recognize later on, been saturated with the idea that it was ultimately up to me to prove my worthiness with God. Not because I had been taught to earn my salvation, not because I had been taught that I had to be good enough to go to heaven. Rather, I had been taught that the Christian life should look a certain way, that I should think and feel certain things. And the lack of those things in myself, I saw, as a defect that I did not know how to overcome. I was allegedly saved because I believed (such as I was taught) but if I am really saved I should bear fruit, I should have a walk that not only looks holy but is holy.

I had a history of people telling me I was spiritual, that I was close with God. I earned a lot of praise from both my Christian peers of my own age, and older Christian adults for how "on fire" I was for God. The thing is, I was never comfortable with any of that, and it actually often made me feel worse--a hypocrite, because I saw what they didn't see. I saw what was inside of me, the struggles I had with my passions (aka "the flesh" as the Bible calls it), with all my doubts, and worries, and the like. From the outside looking in I had all the appearance of being "holy", but I knew I wasn't. I was a sinner and I continued to be a sinner. I hid my darkness away from others, fearful of judgment; and in that darkness my heart felt terror when I thought about God. Knowing that my insides were dirty even if my outsides were clean, a white-washed sepulcher. And it seemed that no matter how hard I tried, no amount of going on mission trips, youth camps, worship seminars, prayer meetings, or the hours I spent devoted to being on my knees begging and pleading with God moved me a single inch toward being holy.

That was the weight I carried on my shoulders. And this is how that weight lifted, almost in a single instant: On a religious discussion forum, not this one, but another, there was a Lutheran poster and they simply talked about what Lutherans believe about the Gospel and salvation. That it is not up to us to reach out and find God, we never go up, instead God always comes down. It isn't my yes to God, it isn't my acceptance of God, it isn't my attempts to live a holy life for God, it is that God Himself comes down and meets us right where we are and declares us full and freely forgiven for Christ's sake.

We never go up, God always comes down.

The moment that hit me it was like a billion ton weight simply slumped off my shoulders. This was never supposed to be about me "being a good Christian" it was supposed to be about Jesus and His cross.

I didn't instantly become a Lutheran, though perhaps in a sense I had and just hadn't yet realized it. That set me down a path of looking into the Reformation, specifically Luther's reform movement, and recognizing the harmony between Scripture, the historic traditional faith of Christianity as expressed in the ancient fathers and the Creeds, and the Lutheran Confessions.

It was, therefore, in Lutheranism that I found:

1) A Christianity that is deep and ancient, catholic and apostolic.
2) A confession of the Gospel that truly says that I can trust and depend on Jesus Christ for everything, and in spite of all my brokenness, He won't let me go--God's promise is God's promise, regardless of how I feel at any given moment.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Tellyontellyon

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I try to avoid telling other people to be Lutheran just because I am, though I am convinced that Lutheranism is true. Simply saying that doesn't mean a lot to others, and it can come across as too "join-my-team-y".

But what I will say and talk about is how I ended up where I am and why.

I wasn't raised Lutheran, and in the religious environment I was raised I didn't even know anything about Lutherans except that they were "similar to Catholics" which didn't mean much either since I didn't know anything about Catholicism outside of a few (and often wrong) things I heard in passing from non-Catholics.

I won't get too deep into it here, but suffice to say that by the time I was 18 I had begun questioning some things and had began trying to figure out what to believe. I made my anchor point in in that search this: That Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that He really did have a Church and that He really did call together a group of people He called His Apostles, and those Apostles taught--by the guidance and power of the Holy Spirit--the truth about Christ and who Christ is and what Christ did to and for the world.

In other words, my anchor point was I should believe as the Apostles believed.

So one place I started looking for insight, to understand and interpret the words of the Apostles, was to look at what early Christians--those who had learned directly from the Apostles and were members of congregations started by the Apostles--thought, believed, and what they did. And, actually, I was surprised at just how obvious it seemed to me that the early writings of Christians looked like the same things I read in the Bible. So that when I had the Bible on one side, and the writings of early Christians (the fathers of the Church) on the other, things lined up.

So I was able to conclude fairly reasonably that there wasn't some sudden breakdown in Christianity, as though there was this early generation of Christians who believed true things, and immediately the second and third generation was somehow something else. It was the same faith preserved from the first generation, to the second, to the third, and fourth, etc.

So what this told me was that part of what "hold firm to the traditions which you have received" (2 Thessalonians 2:15) and "earnestly contend for the faith once and for all delivered to the saints" (Jude 1:3) meant was being grounded in historic Christianity.

The second thing, and why I am a Lutheran rather than Catholic or Orthodox, is--to put it short and sweet--the Gospel. Lutheranism wasn't even on my radar at the time, but one of my constant and long-time nagging spiritual burdens was the deep existential dread of my salvation, this deep sense of dread about whether God loved me, a sinner. In those [Protestant] traditions I had been raised I had, and in some ways I only learned to be able to articular and recognize later on, been saturated with the idea that it was ultimately up to me to prove my worthiness with God. Not because I had been taught to earn my salvation, not because I had been taught that I had to be good enough to go to heaven. Rather, I had been taught that the Christian life should look a certain way, that I should think and feel certain things. And the lack of those things in myself, I saw, as a defect that I did not know how to overcome. I was allegedly saved because I believed (such as I was taught) but if I am really saved I should bear fruit, I should have a walk that not only looks holy but is holy.

I had a history of people telling me I was spiritual, that I was close with God. I earned a lot of praise from both my Christian peers of my own age, and older Christian adults for how "on fire" I was for God. The thing is, I was never comfortable with any of that, and it actually often made me feel worse--a hypocrite, because I saw what they didn't see. I saw what was inside of me, the struggles I had with my passions (aka "the flesh" as the Bible calls it), with all my doubts, and worries, and the like. From the outside looking in I had all the appearance of being "holy", but I knew I wasn't. I was a sinner and I continued to be a sinner. I hid my darkness away from others, fearful of judgment; and in that darkness my heart felt terror when I thought about God. Knowing that my insides were dirty even if my outsides were clean, a white-washed sepulcher. And it seemed that no matter how hard I tried, no amount of going on mission trips, youth camps, worship seminars, prayer meetings, or the hours I spent devoted to being on my knees begging and pleading with God moved me a single inch toward being holy.

That was the weight I carried on my shoulders. And this is how that weight lifted, almost in a single instant: On a religious discussion forum, not this one, but another, there was a Lutheran poster and they simply talked about what Lutherans believe about the Gospel and salvation. That it is not up to us to reach out and find God, we never go up, instead God always comes down. It isn't my yes to God, it isn't my acceptance of God, it isn't my attempts to live a holy life for God, it is that God Himself comes down and meets us right where we are and declares us full and freely forgiven for Christ's sake.

We never go up, God always comes down.

The moment that hit me it was like a billion ton weight simply slumped off my shoulders. This was never supposed to be about me "being a good Christian" it was supposed to be about Jesus and His cross.

I didn't instantly become a Lutheran, though perhaps in a sense I had and just hadn't yet realized it. That set me down a path of looking into the Reformation, specifically Luther's reform movement, and recognizing the harmony between Scripture, the historic traditional faith of Christianity as expressed in the ancient fathers and the Creeds, and the Lutheran Confessions.

It was, therefore, in Lutheranism that I found:

1) A Christianity that is deep and ancient, catholic and apostolic.
2) A confession of the Gospel that truly says that I can trust and depend on Jesus Christ for everything, and in spite of all my brokenness, He won't let me go--God's promise is God's promise, regardless of how I feel at any given moment.

-CryptoLutheran
That's lovely... I'm sure Christians from every tradition have been convinced by their tradition too.
There is a woman in YouTube, 'Lizzie's answers' or something like that... she gives a very good account of the Catholic position. Calvinists, Baptist's, Anglicans, even Christadelphians, Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses... They all consider they are followers of Christ and can argue for their own position and give counter arguments against yours!
Some of the arguments are based in the Bible, some in history and tradition, some on miracles or new prophesy, some in an ever evolving study of ancient Greek etc. etc.
From what I see, nobody has an equivocal answer, despite saying that they do.

Therefore, we (a) need God to intervene, and (b) I have no unequivocal basis to know what to believe.
 
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OldAbramBrown

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The ongoing gift of prophecy when genuine, is about how to apply the meanings of Holy Scripture at this moment, and it is incumbent on each of us to evaluate that and compare evaluations and carry on comparing evaluations.

Belief is meant to be inference based, and more inference, and more inference.
 
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