Penance

FireDragon76 · Apr 12, 2023

I'm fine with penance being about repairing actual damaged relationships.

Of course, some wisdom is necessary. Some relationships are not realistically going to be healed in this life, and attempts to do so could cause more harm than good.

Mark Quayle · Apr 12, 2023

Xeno.of.athens said:
I do not agree. I think that there is a protestant bias against "penance" that is born of ignorance of the word's meaning in its Latin context and maybe some historic miscommunication. The bias clouds discussion too often.

The Bible is not Latin.

Xeno.of.athens · Apr 12, 2023

FireDragon76 said:
I'm fine with penance being about repairing actual damaged relationships.

Of course, some wisdom is necessary. Some relationships are not realistically going to be healed in this life, and attempts to do so could cause more harm than good.

Agreed, and some sins can't be undone - gossip that spreads while destroying a person's reputation and dignity is an example.

Xeno.of.athens · Apr 12, 2023

Mark Quayle said:
The Bible is not Latin.

Oh dear.

FireDragon76 · Apr 12, 2023

Xeno.of.athens said:
Agreed, and some sins can't be undone - gossip that spreads while destroying a person's reputation and dignity is an example.

I was thinking about the recent interview I listened to, with Kerri Rawson, who is the daughter of the notorious serial killer, BTK (Dennis Rader). Rawson was raised a devout Lutheran and got involved in Campus Crusade ministry in college, and found out that her dad was a serial killer in her mid 20's, which lead her to having mental health problems, like PTSD. She tried to forgive her dad, but realized after years of therapy, that it was wiser just to sever contact with him.

Mark Quayle · Apr 12, 2023

Xeno.of.athens said:
Oh dear.

Does this help? The Original is not Latin.

Xeno.of.athens · Apr 12, 2023

Mark Quayle said:
Does this help? The Original is not Latin.

Only marginally because no one has any of the originals so we cannot be sure that they were Greek or Hebrew or some of each or maybe all Aramaic or maybe a mix or maybe all Greek which is the most common opinion though some still assert that Matthew is Hebrew or Aramaic. Anyway it's guesswork because we do not have any originals. But we do have copies, nearly all in Greek but the Western text family is Latin and it is also a witness to what was in those originals, a witness with as much credibility as the Greek texts, besides the Western text family includes some of the oldest extant Greek manuscripts. So, back to the topic, now, I hope.

SavedByGrace3 · Apr 13, 2023

I pray in that way. I pray for forgiveness, and pray the Lord make it up to the person/persons I wronged.

Xeno.of.athens · Apr 13, 2023

SavedByGrace3 said:
I pray in that way. I pray for forgiveness, and pray the Lord make it up to the person/persons I wronged.

Do you try to make it up yourself?

Xeno.of.athens · Apr 13, 2023

Clare73 said:
Xeno.of.athens said:

After you ask God for forgiveness and receive it, or at least believe that you have received it, what do you do with the damage that your sin did in this world? Asking for forgiveness from God doesn't seem to help the people hurt by your sins.

Click to expand...

Do we find "penance" anywhere in the NT?

Looking back at this post it seem to be trivia rather that anything substantial in reply to the original post. It's like playing some doctrine battle game matters more than dealing with the topic.

ViaCrucis · Apr 13, 2023

Xeno.of.athens said:
After you ask God for forgiveness and receive it, or at least believe that you have received it, what do you do with the damage that your sin did in this world? Asking for forgiveness from God doesn't seem to help the people hurt by your sins.

St. John the Baptist spoke of works worthy of repentance.

Lutherans, technically, reject the idea of penance. Now if you ask us, "Should a thief return what they stole?" The answer is DUH, of course they should. But that has nothing to do with God's forgiveness when we come before Him confessing our sins, penitent. Rather that's just common sense, of course you should do that. Making amends with those we have injured isn't a penance we do, but is instead just what we should do.

And, further, we are to seek to live our lives with good works, good works "worthy of repentance". Because the penitent heart, broken by grief over sin, and healed by the grace of God's mercy, desires to do good works. For faith produces good works.

This is part of our Law-Gospel Dialectic. That the Law is the Law, the Gospel is the Gospel, and we don't confuse them. So that means making a sharp distinction between righteousness before God (Justification, Gospel, righteousness received through faith alone), and righteousness before the world (Sanctification, Law, righteousness done because it is good and right to be done for the sake of our neighbor).

If I steal and return what is stolen, God does not count this as righteousness before Him--I shouldn't have stolen in the first place. But it is an act of restitution toward my neighbor who I have injured.

-CryptoLutheran

Xeno.of.athens · Apr 13, 2023

ViaCrucis said:
St. John the Baptist spoke of works worthy of repentance.

Lutherans, technically, reject the idea of penance. Now if you ask us, "Should a thief return what they stole?" The answer is DUH, of course they should. But that has nothing to do with God's forgiveness when we come before Him confessing our sins, penitent. Rather that's just common sense, of course you should do that. Making amends with those we have injured isn't a penance we do, but is instead just what we should do.

And, further, we are to seek to live our lives with good works, good works "worthy of repentance". Because the penitent heart, broken by grief over sin, and healed by the grace of God's mercy, desires to do good works. For faith produces good works.

This is part of our Law-Gospel Dialectic. That the Law is the Law, the Gospel is the Gospel, and we don't confuse them. So that means making a sharp distinction between righteousness before God (Justification, Gospel, righteousness received through faith alone), and righteousness before the world (Sanctification, Law, righteousness done because it is good and right to be done for the sake of our neighbor).

If I steal and return what is stolen, God does not count this as righteousness before Him--I shouldn't have stolen in the first place. But it is an act of restitution toward my neighbor who I have injured.

-CryptoLutheran

You know what? My purpose in calling the thread Penance was to show in the original post that prayer for forgiveness isn't the whole story of Christian living. I wasn't aiming to get into a doctrinal fist fight about catholic vs protestant views on "Penance". But since you and others mention it, and may I say that your contribution is rather thoughtful and helpful, I think it is valuable to note that Confession/Reconciliation/penance are all names for the sacrament of Reconciliation. The name, reconciliation, gives the needed clue to the meaning of the sacrament. It is about reconciliation with God and neighbour. And the penance given in the sacrament is intended to help the penitent understand in thought and action what genuine repentance is, looks like, and feels like. Some penances are prayers, some are actions, some are restitution. The core idea is to experience reconciliation rather than asking for it only.

PS: A clarification; the penance given in the sacrament plays no role whatever in receiving God's forgiveness. Forgiveness is given by God and voiced by the priest with the words, "I absolve you", and those words, the absolution, precede the setting of a penance. The penance is for the penitent to experience reconciling with God and humanity - it's so you know viscerally what the absolution said verbally. I am forgiven and that means I ought to be/feel/experience reconciliation.

Clare73 · Apr 13, 2023

Xeno.of.athens said:
Sometimes I wish there was a thumbs down reaction available!

Faith is about many things, personal faith, a set of beliefs can be called a Faith, but faiths is far more applicable to the latter - that is to say a set of beliefs, thus one could write of the faiths of the protestant denominations - a slightly awkward turn of phrase, I admit - meaning the sets of doctrines possessed by the various protestant denominations.

Seems to me to be in the agreement with the facts on the ground, which does not preclude their "faiths" including belief in the person and work of Jesus Christ, which is the faith (belief) that saves (Ro 3:25, Eph 2:8-9).

Clare73 · Apr 13, 2023

Xeno.of.athens said:
I do not agree. Nor do textual critics. Nor do translators.

They don't agree that the original language of the text is its meaning? Are you serious?

Xeno.of.athens said:
But I've written about this to you before

Not that I've read.

Xeno.of.athens said:
and do not intend to be side tracked into writing about it again, at least no more than I already have. So, @Clare73 I shall move on from this fruitless repeat exchange.

We'll just have to disagree regarding the Greek manuscripts being the meaning of the NT.

FireDragon76 · Apr 13, 2023

Xeno.of.athens said:
You know what? My purpose in calling the thread Penance was to show in the original post that prayer for forgiveness isn't the whole story of Christian living. I wasn't aiming to get into a doctrinal fist fight about catholic vs protestant views on "Penance". But since you and others mention it, and may I say that your contribution is rather thoughtful and helpful, I think it is valuable to note that Confession/Reconciliation/penance are all names for the sacrament of Reconciliation. The name, reconciliation, gives the needed clue to the meaning of the sacrament. It is about reconciliation with God and neighbour. And the penance given in the sacrament is intended to help the penitent understand in thought and action what genuine repentance is, looks like, and feels like. Some penances are prayers, some are actions, some are restitution. The core idea is to experience reconciliation rather than asking for it only.

PS: A clarification; the penance given in the sacrament plays no role whatever in receiving God's forgiveness. Forgiveness is given by God and voiced by the priest with the words, "I absolve you", and those words, the absolution, precede the setting of a penance. The penance is for the penitent to experience reconciling with God and humanity - it's so you know viscerally what the absolution said verbally. I am forgiven and that means I ought to be/feel/experience reconciliation.

The reality is that early Protestants did impose penances, particularly the Swiss and English reformation. Particularly among the Reformed, this was the case, as they emphasized making restitutions to the covenanted community. They did not understand salvation in quite as individualistic terms as modern evangelicals do.

@ViaCrucis experience reflects a certain kind of contemporary Lutheran, but even my old Lutheran pastor told me about when he was growing up in rural New Jersey, if you didn't go to confession once a month, you were not allowed to receive Holy Communion. However, in the modern context, it's debatable if that's useful or beneficial anymore.

Clare73 · Apr 13, 2023

Xeno.of.athens said:
Looking back at this post it seem to be trivia rather that anything substantial in reply to the original post. It's like playing some doctrine battle game matters more than dealing with the topic.

Interesting, don't you think, that questioning the fact of the topic; i.e., a doctrine/concept (penance) nowhere stated in Scripture and being presented for discussion, is seen as "playing some doctrine game."

Would that apply also to questioning the fact of the topic; i.e., a doctrine/concept (Jesus had to be baptized to be the Son of God) nowhere stated in Scripture and being presented for discussion, being seen as "playing some doctrine game?"

Clare73 · Apr 13, 2023

Clare73 said:
Nevertheless, the NT was written in Greek and that is its meaning. Any translation not accurately reflecting the Greek is an inaccurate translation, no matter the language.

Xeno.of.athens said:
I do not agree. Nor do textual critics. Nor do translators. But I've written about this to you before and do not intend to be side tracked into writing about it again, at least no more than I already have. So, @Clare73 I shall move on from this fruitless repeat exchange.

It is not coincidence that in all eight verses which you presented using the word "penance," the word in the Greek text of all of those same verses is metanoia, which does not mean "penance."
Your Latin translator consistently mistranslated the same Greek word, metanoia, throughout the NT.

Xeno.of.athens · Apr 13, 2023

Clare73 said:
don't you think, that questioning the fact of the topic; i.e., a doctrine/concept (penance)

Except that is not the topic it is just the title. The original post defines the topic.

Xeno.of.athens · Apr 13, 2023

Clare73 said:
Your Latin translator consistently mistranslated the same Greek word, metanoia, throughout the NT.

The Latin translators in the first few centuries of the Christian era, before the time of saint Jerome, might have known a bit more about Latin and Greek than your posts demonstrate as the extent of your knowledge.

bling · Apr 13, 2023

Xeno.of.athens said:
After you ask God for forgiveness and receive it, or at least believe that you have received it, what do you do with the damage that your sin did in this world? Asking for forgiveness from God doesn't seem to help the people hurt by your sins.

Very good. How did Saul/Paul use his sinful hurts against innocent Christians?
These before actions become "assets" in that they show the huge change Christ has made in your life and you are no longer that person.

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