Penal Substitution.....?

[Philip]

Issues That Must Be Addressed by Anyone Wishing to Seriously Defend Penal Substitutionary Atonement

1. The Nature of Our Knowledge of the Father. Christ teaches us
   
   
   Matthew 11:27
   "All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him."​
   
   And
   
   
   John 5:19
   Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.
   ​
   And
   
   
   John 14:9-11
   Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works. Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves.​
   
   St Paul teaches
   
   
   Philippians 2:5-7
   Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.​
   
   Everything we know of the Father is revealed to us in the Son. Any doctrine about the Father that is not testified to by the Son must be seriously questioned. In particular, we must wonder why we can not find in Christ the characteristics assigned to the Father by PSA.
   
2. The Nature of God's Mercy. PSA asserts that God's mercy is the withholding of a judicial sentence. But Christ's actions teach differently:
   
   
   Matthew 9:27-29
   As Jesus went on from there, two blind men followed Him, crying out, "Have mercy on us, Son of David!" When He entered the house, the blind men came up to Him, and Jesus said to them, "Do you believe that I am able to do this?" They said to Him, "Yes, Lord." Then He touched their eyes, saying, "It shall be done to you according to your faith."
   ​
   And
   
   
   Matthew 15:22,28
   And a Canaanite woman from that region came out and began to cry out, saying, "Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is cruelly demon-possessed." Then Jesus said to her, "O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish." And her daughter was healed at once.
   ​
   And so on. We see by Christ's actions that God's mercy is not limited to the suspension of a judicial sentence. His mercy, by its very nature, is restorative and sustaining.
   
3. The Nature of God's Vengeance. PSA describes God's vengeance as seeking revenge against those who have wronged Him. Yet, we can find no action of Christ's that fits this model. Indeed, this seems to be the opposite of Christ's example:
   
   
   Luke 23:33-34
   When they came to the place called The Skull, there they crucified Him and the criminals, one on the right and the other on the left. But Jesus was saying, "Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing." And they cast lots, dividing up His garments among themselves.​
   
   So, if Christ, the very icon of the Father, never acts with this proposed kind of vengeance, on what basis do we presume the Father so acts? Can we find some basis in another portion of Scripture? Again, we find the opposite. In the very place that God claims the right to vengeance, He explains the method of His vengeance:
   
   
   Deuteronomy 32:35-36
   'Vengeance is Mine, and retribution, In due time their foot will slip; For the day of their calamity is near, And the impending things are hastening upon them. For the LORD will vindicate His people, And will have compassion on His servants, When He sees that their strength is gone, And there is none remaining, bond or free.
   ​
   God seeks vengeance through the vindication of the righteous. Just as He vindicated Christ by raising Him from the dead, so too will He vindicate His servants through the resurrection unto life.
   
4. The Nature of God's Forgiveness. PSA asserts that God can not forgive sins without first satisfy His justice. This very idea is flawed is it binds God to an external concept of justice. If we truly believe in an omnipotent, sovereign God, then we must accept that He is able to do as He pleases. If He it pleases Him to freely forgive someone, then He does so. Again, this is supported by the example of Christ. While we could cite the various times Christ forgave sins, we instead turn to one of His parables:
   
   
   Matthew 18:23-27
   "For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves. When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made. So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, 'Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.' And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.​
   
   We too can expect our King to forgive our sins without demanding payment and without transferring the debt to another.
   
5. The Nature of God's Wrath. There seems to be but one event in Christ's life that we might characterize as wrathful: the cleansing of the temple. But even here we can not find Christ seeking to get even with those who offend Him. He does not seek satisfaction from them. His wrath is limited to bringing an end to the sins of the wicked. Indeed, if we look to the archetypical example of God's wrath, the Flood, we can not find a desire for revenge.
   
   
   Genesis 6:5-8
   Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. The LORD said, "I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them." But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.
   ​
   God's wrath does have its origin in a desire to repay transgressions or seek satisfaction. It is born of His sorrow at the state of man. He reacts by preserving the righteous and bringing an end to the sins of the wicked. However, despite the claims of PSA, there seems to be motivation to punish.

This is just a first draft, but I think it summarizes my issues with PSA as expressed in this thread.

 

[cygnusx1]

I don't agree with penal substitution... It just seems evil to me! It makes God a sadistic tormentor who HAS to cause suffering for someone, eather people or Jesus... It goes totally against God's love, justice, mercy...

Hi Starlight , I don't agree .
I think mercy without Justice is impossible!
And the greatest act of Love is being willing to suffer so that others will not have to .
One could argue , that God was sadistic in commanding Abraham to kill his own son ........ of course it is easy for us in retrospect to say ahhh God was only testing Abraham ...... but what would you have done if God had commanded you to do that!

One wonders why one needs saving if Divine retribution for sin is not the consequence for sin ?

what do you think sinning deserves ?

Jesus suffered the curse of sin , "cursed is he who hangs on a tree" under the direct will of God ..... if there was another way for sinners to be spared eternal torment , surely it would have been decreed.

I notice usually when this subject is discussed there is a clear denial not only of penal substitution but also the Righteous wrath and hatred of God for all sin , along with a denial of everlasting punishment (hell) ..... it would seem these things are connected.

Also it is evident that God's wrath is deliberately softened into God attempting (and failing) to correct those He destroys!
This is done in the name of permitting only one type of punishment ....... correction (discipline) , yet how men who are killed can be disciplined we are not informed , seeing as everlasting punishment is also being denied.

One may quote scripture to show God's sadness at destroying mankind with a flood , and no Evangelical would deny it , , one may also show scripture that shows God laughing when calamity strikes sinners **, and then certain evasive techniques will be employed to change what is equally revealed !

Similarly one may quote scripture that clearly shows God does not delight in the death of sinners [FONT=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Ezekiel 18:23, 32[/FONT], and that is in one sense true , yet honesty will not permit me to deny that there are also scriptures that show God does delight in the destruction of some sinners........ ***

what can we infer from these things ?

That God's dealings with man are far from simple .... His ways are way above our ways !

If scripture shows The Love Of God it also shows His hatred.
If it shows His mercy it also shows He hardens .
If it shows He has pity , it also shows He will not.
If it shows He is patient with the wicked it also shows some died instantly !
If it shows God will save it also shows He will damn ... "He will in no wise clear the guilty"

Our position should not be one of dictating to God what He can do , and what He should not do , but to bow in humble adoration and trust before the Lord the giver of life.

**
Proverbs 1:20-33

[SIZE=+2]W[/SIZE]isdom cries out in the street; in the squares she raises her voice. At the busiest corner she cries out; at the entrance of the city gates she speaks: "How long, O simple ones, will you love being simple? How long will scoffers delight in their scoffing and fools hate knowledge? Give heed to my reproof; I will pour out my thoughts to you; I will make my words known to you. Because I have called and you refused, have stretched out my hand and no one heeded, and because you have ignored all my counsel and would have none of my reproof, I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when panic strikes you, when panic strikes you like a storm, and your calamity comes like a whirlwind, when distress and anguish come upon you. Then they will call upon me, but I will not answer; they will seek me diligently, but will not find me. Because they hated knowledge and did not choose the fear of the LORD, would have none of my counsel, and despised all my reproof, therefore they shall eat the fruit of their way and be sated with their own devices. For waywardness kills the simple, and the complacency of fools destroys them; but those who listen to me will be secure and will live at ease, without dread of disaster."


***Deuteronomy 28:63

Just as it pleased the Lord to prosper you and make you increase in number, so it will please him to ruin and destroy you.

2 Samuel 2:25

If one man sin against another, the judge shall judge him: but if a man sin against the LORD, who shall entreat for him? Notwithstanding they hearkened not unto the voice of their father, because the LORD would slay them. (KJV)

 

[Van]

In particular, we must wonder why we can not find in Christ the characteristics assigned to the Father by PSA.

It seems to me that any characteristic of the Father must also be in the Son; in other words those verses that teach the unity of the Father and Son cut both ways. Consider the money changers, or the guys who should not have been born. You do not have to look far...

Does the idea that Christ died as a ransom for all cut against the idea that God's mercy can include restorative and sustaining grace? Nope

Does Christ's death on the cross indicate God is seeking revenge against those who have wronged Him? Nope Rather Christ's death indicates God was accomplishing His plan of redemption for those separated from Him due to Adam's wrongdoing.

God is holy, that is His nature. He does not change. So to reconcile mankind, without altering His nature, a mechanism was needed to make men holy and blameless before Him. Behold, the finshed work of the cross.

 

[jckstraw72]

God is holy, that is His nature. He does not change. So to reconcile mankind, without altering His nature, a mechanism was needed to make men holy and blameless before Him. Behold, the finshed work of the cross.

exactly! it wasnt about taking punishment, it was about reconciling man!

 

[Van]

So God is not a monster after all in having Jesus crucified according to His purpose and predetermined plan? Well, that is progress. Here is how the author of Hebrews puts it: Jesus was manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

Now folks sinned before Jesus died and folks sin after Jesus died, so the meaning of "put away sin" must be considered. The wages of sin is death. And if spiritual deadness means separated from God, then Jesus was manifested to put away the bonds of unholiness, our separation from God. Its a lock folks.

 

[cygnusx1]

Penal Substitution
By Dr. Greg Bahnsen
How can a guilty sinner avert the just condemnation and wrath of God? How can he be set free from the penalty he deserves? Paul wrote: "When the fulness of time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, so that He might redeem them who are under the law" (Gal. 4:4). In order to fulfill all of God's promises and accomplish His saving design for men, Christ came to do a work of "redemption."
And in Paul's theologically authoritative conception of this redemption, it carried an unmistakably judicial and substitutionary character: "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us" (3:13). Redemption or liberation is a setting free from a dreaded judicial reality: "the curse of the law." And this act of setting us free was accomplished by a Substitute who assumed the judicial condemnation in our place: "having become a curse for us." Christ's death upon the cross was not simply some "equivalently terrible event" which replaces the infliction of the law's judicial penalty (as "governmental" theories maintain), but rather the very bearing of that curse itself....
The redemptive work of Christ was clearly more than an act of representation or mediation, even though Scripture does look upon Jesus Christ as the federal representative of His people and as the only Mediator between God and men. In human transactions, a mediator or negotiator between adversarial parties may facilitate agreement, but he need not also -- as a substitute for one of the parties (or both) -- be the one who performs the service or pays the price involved in the eventual contract or resolution. An attorney can represent his client in a court of law, pleading before the bar, without also as a substitute for that client becoming the one who undergoes the punishment imposed by the judge. Christ our Savior did more than represent or mediate for us to God. Isaiah the prophet was granted by God a clear and poignant vision of this truth: "But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was bruised for our iniquities.... Jehovah has laid on him the iniquity of us all" (53:5-6). How shall God's Righteous Servant "justify many"? Isaiah wrote: "it pleased Jehovah to bruise him; He has put him to grief," making his life (or soul) an "offering for sin.... He shall bear their iniquities" (vv. 10-11).
To this the words of the New Testament add decisive confirmation. Christ was manifested at the consummation of the ages, says the author of Hebrews, "to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself," being "once offered up to bear the sins of many" (9:26, 28). By taking upon Himself the sins of His people, Christ bore the penalty of death which sin deserves. Jesus said it Himself when He referred to His coming death and interpreted it as "My blood of the New Covenant poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins" (Matt. 26:28). Peter writes that this "precious blood of Christ" was the means of our "redemption" (1 Peter 1:18-19). Redemption required that He die as our substitute. Thus Paul describes the Mediator as one who "gave Himself as a ransom on behalf of all" (1 Tim. 2:5-6), using a Greek word for "ransom" whose prefix gives it the literal sense of "substitute-payment." This conspicuously mirrors the saying of Jesus Himself that He came "to give His life as a ransom [release-price] in the place of many" (Mark 10:45).
The doctrine of penal substitution could be expunged from the Biblical witness only by a perverse and criminal mistreatment of the sacred text or a tendentious distortion of its meaning. What else could Peter have meant by writing to believers in the church that "Christ suffered for you"? The Greek preposition ("for") has the sense of "in your behalf" or "for your sake." Was it simply for the sake of a moral example, so that those who "suffer unjustly" (v. 19) might "follow His steps" (v. 21)? Is that the end of the matter (exemplary suffering) or is that not rather the moral application of the fundamental saving significance of Christ's suffering? Surely the manner in which Christ died can be a model and even a motivator without at all securing forgiveness or securing ethical integrity; history is full of paradigmatic and pathos-engendering martyrs, while men familiar with them nevertheless continue under the bondage of sin and subject to God's wrath. Peter's explanation of the sense in which Christ, the innocent one, suffered "for" us extends to this precious truth: "who bore our sins in His body upon the tree" (v. 24). The substituting of the innocent in the place of the guilty, for the sake of rescuing the guilty from condemnation, comes out just a few verses later when Peter declares: "Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, in order that He might bring us to God" (3:18).
We see from the above that Christ's atoning death was intended to have an objective effect upon a wrathful Judge (God) and not simply a subjective reverberation in the heart of believers. "Moral influence" theories minimize the significance and uniqueness of the cross by making it merely a compelling example of God's great love, emotionally moving men to live self-sacrificially by imitation. Other stories of martyrdom can evoke pathos, but Scripture sets forth the work of Christ as of unparalleled importance. If it was not important because it secured the favor of God, the crucifixion is debased into a senseless act of showmanship.
Similarly, "governmental" theories portray Christ's suffering, not as a penal substitution, but simply a penal example of sin's dreadful and tragic nature so that divine pardon ("bypassing" the demand for the sinner's punishment) will not have the effect of weakening the honor or enforcement of God's moral demands in the eyes of the public. Society would not take seriously the need to be morally governed by God unless, in the place of punishing sinners as He threatened, God substituted some great measure which was unpleasant and filled with grief. Such speculation, like the moral influence theory, also undermines the significance and uniqueness of the cross. In order to continue providing a deterrent against forgiven men lapsing into sin, God might occasionally repeat penal examples like Christ's suffering throughout history (the more recent and relevant, the better after all) -- which is utterly unthinkable in New Testament theology wherein there is absolutely no need for Christ "to offer Himself up often" since His redemptive work was performed "once and for all" (Heb. 9:12, 25-28). On the deterrent ("sin-prevention") interpretation of the atonement, the crucifixion is debased into a distasteful act of manipulation.
The theological perspective of the Biblical writers, prophets and apostles both being witness, is that one who was perfectly righteous stood in the place of those who are unrighteous in God's sight, bearing the curse or penalty of their sin by dying in their place, in order to set them free from condemnation and secure their eternal benefit. There is no other way, as Peter indicates, for sinners to be "brought back to God." This makes maintaining the purity and truth of the gospel as the good news about judicial and substitutionary atonement a matter of infinite personal importance. It makes the self-conscious rejection of this central Biblical theme a matter of dreadful consequence. "For we know Him who said 'Vengeance belongs unto Me, I will recompense'.... It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God" (Heb. 10:30-31). Our only hope is that Christ's saving death is received by God precisely as a "sacrifice for sins" (cf. v. 26).

 

[Flicker]

This story about God destroying Christ in order to keep himself from destroying us makes me ill. I have actually physically vomited from thinking about this theology. If it is true, I wish I had never been born and this whole universe was never created.

 

[Flicker]

What if Christ became incarnated to inject the divine life into the universe and setting it on fire, purifying the cosmos? What if the care of God is a radiant and lustrating perfection whereby he would transfigure this poor earth? Shouldn't we then feed ourselves into God's fires?

 

[depthdeception]

This story about God destroying Christ in order to keep himself from destroying us makes me ill. I have actually physically vomited from thinking about this theology. If it is true, I wish I had never been born and this whole universe was never created.

Truly, it would be better for the universe to have never existed if God is such.

 

[Philip]

This story about God destroying Christ in order to keep himself from destroying us makes me ill. I have actually physically vomited from thinking about this theology. If it is true, I wish I had never been born and this whole universe was never created.

Odd. I thought I remembered you speaking highly of John Piper.

 

[cygnusx1]

Truly, it would be better for the universe to have never existed if God is such.

silly over-reactions as usual hey!

 

[cygnusx1]

The safest place to stand during a forest fire that is going to burn up everything around YOU .......................................... is to stand where the fire has already been !


Some think that the God of the Old Testament and Jesus of the New Testament have very little in common , they picture Jesus as only soft merciful , gentle Jesus meek and mild etc , and they view God in the Old Testament as often vengeful , drowning mankind , burning mankind , or slaughtering mankind with the sword! (just how many Divinely commissioned wars are there in the Old Testament!)

This view of two different God's couldn't be more wrong , God cannot change . His character is first and foremost Holy (not love) if we see God's mercy in the New Testament Son Of God then we are certain to see God's mercy in the Old Testament God , for they are one.
Jehovah is often merciful throughout the Old Testament ....... consider the fact that he permitted Cain to live , even though he had slain his brother .... and some would say to show Cain mercy God should have put him to death !
Consider the Psalms , they will forever record God's Mercy to Israel and particularly David who also should have been put to death for killing an 'innocent ' man and stealing his wife.

Yet the New testament being primarily a time of Grace shows little wrath , and much mercy , especially in the face of Jesus God's Own Son!
Considering this period is described as Jubilee , a time for debts to be cancelled (and that is what sin is , a debt) then it is hardly at all surprising that there are few records of destruction , judgements or cursing in the New Testament Jesus............ but there are some!

Jesus did show anger when He turned out the money lenders and traders from the Temple , and here we see what is always the case , it is controlled precise anger founded on Righteousness Holiness and justice.

Then there is the case of the miracle where Jesus cursed the fig tree ........... surely a warning that God will still yet curse that which is devoid of goodness.

Then there is the interaction with the leading Fathers of Jesus time , the Saducees and Pharisees ......... where Jesus asks them how can any of them escape , not death , but "damnation" !

Then there is the case of Annanias and Sapphira being killed by God for lying , just as God killed certain people on the spot in the Old Testament period , truly God does not change!

and when we consider the case of the Corinthians there is a case where many were sick and even dying because they were taking the Lords Supper without confessing and forsaking sin ......... this was not a natural event.


On our way to the last book of the Bible things start heating up again ......... read 1 Peter 2 Peter and Jude for proof God is still going to pour out wrath .......... the Flood of Noah's day and Sodom and Gommorahs destruction are viewed not as embarrasing moments where God "lost it" but as representative of Divine Judgements yet to come!

2 Peter 3

1This is now the second letter that I have written to you, beloved, and in both of them I have aroused your sincere mind by way of reminder;2that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles.3First of all you must understand this, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own passions4and saying, "Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things have continued as they were from the beginning of creation."5They deliberately ignore this fact, that by the word of God heavens existed long ago, and an earth formed out of water and by means of water,6through which the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished.7But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist have been stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.8But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.9The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fire, and the earth and the works that are upon it will be burned up.11Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of persons ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness,12waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be kindled and dissolved, and the elements will melt with fire!13But according to his promise we wait for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.14Therefore, beloved, since you wait for these, be zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace.15And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,16speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.17You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability.18But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

and then we have the many scriptures in Revelation which speak of God pouring out wrath , judgements , certainly God has never changed...... and should it be argued that these outpourings of judgement are merely corrective , for discipline , , the scriptures make it very clear that instead of mankind Repenting under these varied Judgements sinners will disregard these severe Divine Judgments.


Truly :

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness." Rom. 1:18

 

[Van]

The curse of the Law is separation from God, same as saying the consequence of sin is separation from God.

That Jesus suffered and died to ransom, to propitiate, to reconcile is not in dispute. The finished work of the cross is setting fallen mankind free from the bonds of unholiness, Jesus becoming the Ark of Salvation. Anyone spiritually placed "in Christ" undergoes the circumcision of Christ, being made holy and blameless. Hence Christ died to put away sin, meaning put away the consequence of sin, our separation from God due to our unholiness.

 

[Flicker]

But what if God, instead of cursing people who violated his law (or Christ as atonement), enforced his law by correcting those who break it? That correction may involve some kind of punishment, but God would punish in a manner calculated to bring the wronger to repentance (transfiguration) rather than to destroy the wronger? What if the operation of divine wrath had as its end human remediation rather than human destruction?

It seems to me that this was what Plotinus, Origen, St. Gregory of Nyssa, and C.S. Lewis thought about God.

 

[cygnusx1]

But what if God, instead of cursing people who violated his law (or Christ as atonement), enforced his law by correcting those who break it? That correction may involve some kind of punishment, but God would punish in a manner calculated to bring the wronger to repentance rather than to destroy the wronger?

and just how does killing men create correction for them ....... do they go to boot camp and come out new soldiers of Christ?

on what basis does God execute judgment ?

why does God need the blood of an innocent sprinkled on the mercy seat in order for even a High Priest to approach God ?

 

[Van]

God sent His Son because He so loved fallen mankind, so the why has been answered. Does the bible say Jesus suffered and died as punishment for our sins? Nope It says God set aside our sins because God accepted the sacrifice of Jesus. Jesus is the propitiation for the wholle world. His sacrifice bought our freedom from the bondage of unholiness. When we are placed in Christ we are made holy and blameless. And this spiritual transaction is made possible by God accepting the sacrifice of Christ as the propitiation of the whole world.

Salvation is a free gift, provided by God through our Lord Christ Jesus. The gift of salvation was bought for all mankind by shedding of the precious blood of the Lamb.
Receive the gift through faith in the redemptive work of the cross.

 

[cygnusx1]

Those who have seen the Son have seen the Father ..... true !!!!!

It is said in this thread that Jesus was only angry once and showed no signs of anger other than making a whip and driving out the money lenders from the Temple , leading one to believe that The Father must also be extremely mild , and in no ways vengeful or unmerciful.... or severe!

but it should not be ignored that this arguement works both ways ........ Jesus Christ God's own Son prayed to His Father the God of the Israelites .

the same God who said :


Deuteronomy 7:1-2 When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations . . . then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy.

20:10-17 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. . . . This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.
However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you.


Few there are who can reconcile these scriptures with a Jesus who is the very representation of God !

A recent book which I hope to purchase attempts 4 views on this subject.

Show Them No Mercy: 4 Views on God and Canaanite Genocide
By: Stanley N. Gundry


The two things lacking in the anti-PSA view are Holiness and Justification ........ perhaps they don't believe in these central concepts....

 

[cygnusx1]

If Christ did not suffer and die as a Penal Substitute for our sin , literally being punished by incurring death according to God's will , then why did He have to die ?

Many here assume God can merely , like humans , forgive sin without any need for any substitution , that just as we may forgive so God can likewise forgive ...... without any regard for Justice , Holiness or satisfaction.

The arguement runs that God can do anything , He is Sovereign after all , and He can "just forgive" without any need to address His law ........ "the soul that sins shall surely die" it is supposed may be put aside as easily as tearing up a page from a book ...... and that when The Lord so wishes ... the soul that sins shall surely be forgiven!

This is to underestimate the power of God's Law , which knows no exceptions to sin , it is severe , intolerable , not open to compromise or compassion , it is a letter that kills and cannot make alive , it confines all men under sin and guilt ..... men were even stoned to death for collecting firewood on a Sabbath!

It is not only Jews who are under this power , the Law is universal and none partisan...... both Jews amnd Gentiles are under it!



(NKJV) Romans 2:1 Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. 2 But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. 3 And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds": 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness -- indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God. 12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law [are] just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves [their] thoughts accusing or else excusing [them)] 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel. 17 Indeed you are called a Jew, and rest on the law, and make your boast in God, 18 and know [His] will, and approve the things that are excellent, being instructed out of the law, 19 and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, 20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, having the form of knowledge and truth in the law. 21 You, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that a man should not steal, do you steal? 22 You who say, "Do not commit adultery," do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who make your boast in the law, do you dishonor God through breaking the law? 24 For "the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you," as it is written. 25 For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? 27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, [even] with [your] written

 and circumcision, [are] a transgressor of the law? [I]28 [/I]For he is not a Jew who [is one] outwardly, nor [is] circumcision that which [is] outward in the flesh; [I]29 [/I]but [he is] a Jew who [is one] inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise [is] not from men but from God. [/COLOR][/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=4][COLOR=purple]From this universal Law men are accounted sinners and pronounced guilty ...... and the only verdict for one who does not continue in all things as the Law lays down is death , not chastening or compassion or some medicine .... but death![/COLOR][/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=4][COLOR=purple]Death is the just punishment of God for sin , this is undeniable . Even over those whose sin was not like the sin of Adam , death reigned ..... the Law entered in not to save sinners or to correct them but so that sin might abound!![/COLOR][/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=4][COLOR=purple]Now some argue that babies die , and they must have therefore sinned ........ technically babies cannot sin ... they died exactly the same way as those who died from Adam to Moses , by the imputation of the sin of one man , Adam![/COLOR][/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=4][COLOR=purple]Death that great curse for sin is universal , you may be able to escape many things and unless the Lord returns before you die you will not escape death , albeit the sting for the believer has been removed , Amen![/COLOR][/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=4][COLOR=purple]And so God's Law stands against all who are in Adam , and this Law cannot be repealed , not one jot or tittle shall pass from it until all is fulfilled ..... [/COLOR][/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=4][COLOR=purple]Into such a world as this Christ came , born not of heathens , Pagans or the ignorant but born into the family of God ..... born under the Mosaic Law![/COLOR][/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=4][COLOR=purple]Jesus was raised knowing that animal sacrifice was at the heart of the Mosaic Law , that even though these sacrifices were not sufficient to truly remove the Adamic guilt of any man , they served to show that the way into God's presence was by innocent blood according to strict moral Law.[/COLOR][/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=4][COLOR=purple]The animal sacrifices were of a certain type , they had to be whole , spotless and without blemish , they had to be killed upon the altar as a sacrifice to Jehovah , and that the blood of the animal was the primary part of the "offering" ........ [/COLOR][/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=4][COLOR=purple]Now the animal sacrifices were an open revelation that sin was to be atoned for , appealing to God to not destroy , because the animal had instead been destroyed ....... and The Lord would see the innocent blood and be pleased that a suitable offering for sin had been found.... what could be more suitable than that which signifies the Divine Judgment on sin ... death.[/COLOR][/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=4][COLOR=purple]Christ was from the beginning at the heart of God's purposes to redeem fallen mankind from the power of sin and death , these finding there power in the Law .[/COLOR][/SIZE]
[SIZE=4][COLOR=purple]So accordingly there had to be a way of ridding the world of sin and death by going to the heart of the issue ... Law ! How to rid the man of death , death comes from sin ....... but how to rid the man of sin ...... sin comes from the knowledge of the Law , and where there is no Law there is no sin![/COLOR][/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=4][COLOR=purple]Consequently Law must be dealt with , not by ignoring it , that would make God partisan to Lawlessness and and encourager of sin .... but by fulfilling the just requirements (death) of the Law![/COLOR][/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=4][COLOR=purple]How could God do that ?[/COLOR][/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=4][COLOR=purple]By becoming sin ![/COLOR][/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=4][COLOR=purple]Yes , that is the scriptural verdict , that Christ became sin (never a sinner) , in order to die to sin ...... so that by His becoming like us (sin) He would be in a position to die ....... Jesus could never have died otherwise![/COLOR][/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=4][COLOR=purple]And so it was that Christ , a perfect innocent man became sin , in order to suffer death , so that the Law of God could be fulfilled ....... by being both Just and the Justifier of he who believes .... Christ has redeemed men from every tribe and tongue (world salvation) .[/COLOR][/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=4][COLOR=purple]The Law can no longer harm the Christian , for Christ and the Christian have already passed under the Laws sentence of death ..... together.[/COLOR][/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=4][COLOR=purple]Grace and Peace [/COLOR][/SIZE]
[SIZE=4][COLOR=purple]Cygnus [/COLOR][/SIZE]

 

[Flicker]

"God sacrificed his own son in place of humans who needed to be punished for their own sins might make some Christians love Jesus, but is an obcene picture of God. It is almost heavenly child abuse, and may infect out imagination at more earthly levels as well. I do not want to express my faith through a theology that pictures God demanding blood sacrifices in order to be reconciled to us." (page 145-146), From "Who is Jesus" by John Dominic Crossan ("Jesus Seminar" participant and former Catholic priest).

 

[edie19]

"God sacrificed his own son in place of humans who needed to be punished for their own sins might make some Christians love Jesus, but is an obcene picture of God. It is almost heavenly child abuse, and may infect out imagination at more earthly levels as well. I do not want to express my faith through a theology that pictures God demanding blood sacrifices in order to be reconciled to us." (page 145-146), From "Who is Jesus" by John Dominic Crossan ("Jesus Seminar" participant and former Catholic priest).

2 thoughts on your post - just because Crossan doesn't want to express his faith through a theology that includes substitutionary atonement doesn't make it any less true. Secondly, God isn't reconciled to us, we're reconciled to Him - there's a world of difference.