Penal Substitution.....?

[James1979]

Van,

John 3:16 is also a misunderstood verse as well. Everyone will not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Only if they are chosen from the foundation of the world will they believe on God (Ephesians 1:4). God has to intervne for them for to do good works. The great many other people who do not believe will perish because God simply left them their in their sins to perish as they are not written in the Lamb's book of Life.

Acts 16:30-31 is a question that many people try to do to become saved. But they fail to realize that are a spiritual corpse and they cannot obey because their will is sold to Satan. God simply has to give them eternal life first before they can do any good works(ie, faith, believe, repentance, preach the gospel, warning the wicked from their wicked ways). Lazarus is a perfect picture of Salvation. Lazarus of himself could not simply come out of the tomb when Jesus told him to come forth. Christ had into enter into Lazarus spirit for him to live and obey that command.

When we share the gospel with someone on the street and they ask us a question "What must I do to become saved" And our answer to them is Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, confess with your mouth that he is Lord and believe that God has raised him from the dead. The person who is listening is going to assume "Oh that's it, that's all it takes to become saved" The person who is sharing the gospel and the person who is hearing the gospel both are deceived and have believed a lie that this decision can simply be made with our thinking and our sinful will. God has to give him a new heart and a new spirit once the Holy Spirit quickens him by the word of God, this activity can happen at any moment (from the day their are conceived or the very last few minutes from death if they are under the hearing of the word of God)

When God tells us to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, that includes, believing that he paid for your sins and also putting faith in him when you go through tribulations. That is a commandment of the Law. When Christ speaks to his people, they are commandments of the Law, you're trying to use God's word that is outside of his law and that is not possible.

Good works is an evidence that you have become saved. When it talks about faith by my works or faith without works. Faith without works is simply a belief that their is a God in existence and believe that he created this world. But its not a faith unto salvation upon the Lord Jesus Christ.

James 2:19 says

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

The devils even believe their is a God but its not a believe unto salvation. People who believe that their is a God and don't become saved are in the same predictament as the devils.

Faith by my works is all pointing to Christ because he perfectly fulfill righteousness and that's what God demand for anyone to enter in his holy prescence. When God sees a saved sinner who is justified, God sees Christ faithfulness and good works only. God sees the saved sinner producing good fruits but that in no way is accounted to him for righteousness even the faith the believe now has.

 

[Van]

James 1979, I think we have come to the end of the discussion. I believe the Bible means what it says. Whoever means whoever, and does not mean the preselected elect.

Paul answered the question, what must I do to be saved with believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and did not say, you can do nothing because you are a spiritual corpse.
Words have meanings.

Ephesians 1:4 does not say anyone was chosen individually before the foundation of the world, it says we were chosen in Him, meaning He was chosen and as a consequence anyone spiritually placed in Him shares in His election as the Chosen One of God.

I agree that believing does not save anyone, God has to spiritually baptize the person into Christ where they undergo the circumcision of Christ, and arise in Christ a new, born again, creation, created for good works.

I am not using God's word outside the Law of Christ.

And James is not talking about Christ's faithfulness, but about ours. Words have meanings.

May God bless.

 

[Ben johnson]

John 3:16 is also a misunderstood verse as well. Everyone will not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Only if they are chosen from the foundation of the world will they believe on God (Ephesians 1:4). God has to intervne for them for to do good works. The great many other people who do not believe will perish because God simply left them their in their sins to perish as they are not written in the Lamb's book of Life.

"Misunderstood", James? It reflects Jn6:40, and 1Tim2:1-4. God wants ALL to be saved (He commands ALL MEN EVERYWHERE to repent in Acts17:30), and all who DO are saved. The rebukes in Matt11:21-24, Jn5:39-47, Matt23:13 (Lk11:52) are clear --- rebuking them TOWARDS repentance.

Your "understanding" (which is, ironically, misunderstanding as you call others' understading incorrect), holds that saving-faith itself, is GIFTED to us by God.

When we share the gospel with someone on the street and they ask us a question "What must I do to become saved" And our answer to them is Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, confess with your mouth that he is Lord and believe that God has raised him from the dead. The person who is listening is going to assume "Oh that's it, that's all it takes to become saved" The person who is sharing the gospel and the person who is hearing the gospel both are deceived and have believed a lie that this decision can simply be made with our thinking and our sinful will. God has to give him a new heart and a new spirit once the Holy Spirit quickens him by the word of God, this activity can happen at any moment (from the day their are conceived or the very last few minutes from death if they are under the hearing of the word of God)

Two problems with this; regeneration comes from the RECEIVED Spirit. Placing "belief", as CAUSAL rather than consequential.

Look at Eph1:5 --- "The kind intention of His will", reflects Jn6:40 ("ALL who see and believe be saved"). It was bestowed upon us in the Beloved (Jesus). JESUS was "foreknown before the foundation of the world" (1Pet1:20), and we "are chosen from the beginning ...THROUGH FAITH." 2Thess2:13

Will you answer a question, James? In Romans Paul writes: "God is just and justifier of he who BELIEVES".

When you say, Only if they are chosen from the foundation of the world will they believe on God. The great many other people who do not believe will perish because God simply left them their in their sins to perish as they are not written in the Lamb's book of Life. So clearly your view is "God justifies those who are CHOSEN TO belief."

The question is, "how does a just God impose salvation on some, ignore the rest (therefore imposing condemnation on them --- it's absolutely His CHOICE for them NOT to be saved), and still embody justness?"

And of course, a second question is: "How can truly saved people, fall FROM salvation"?

 

[inchristalone221]

holds that saving-faith itself, is GIFTED to us by God.

If this were not the case, how could we dare to call it grace? If in the final assessment we have contributed anything to our salvation, we have not a gospel of grace. Further, if something from us be needed that is not by grace, the we are all damned. We have nothing to contribute but our sin.

 

[Van]

inchristalone221, surely you jest.
John 3:16 says whoever believes in Him shall not perish. Obviously we must believe in Him. Conditional election.
Read James 2:5 and consider what it says. God chooses us based on His knowledge of our hearts, He keeps His promise to those who love Him. Trusting in the finished work of the cross is not a salvation based on works, but by grace through faith. vbmenu_register("postmenu_24106261", true);

 

[inchristalone221]

John 3:16 says whoever believes in Him shall not perish. Obviously we must believe in Him. Conditional election.

Ah, but consider this combination of premises:
a) Whoever believes in Him shall not perish
b) Only the elect shall believe in Him
ergo c) Only the elect shall not perish

The reason I add premise b is that only the elect of God can believe in Him. Man, in his natural state, is at enmity with God. He will not have his God to be Lord over him and he flaunts his wickedness before all. It is by supernatural regeneration (an act of choice on the part of God) that one is restored to his proper nature. Being so restored he is just as incapable of refusing Christ as he had formerly been of accepting Him.

Read James 2:5 and consider what it says.

James 2:5 is, to the best of my observation, about the equal treatment of the rich and the poor under the ministrations of the church.

God chooses us based on His knowledge of our hearts,

God looks into the human heart and sees nothing but hatred for Him and contempt for His law. He creates love and faith within the man ex nihilo (pardon the Luther paraphrase).

He keeps His promise to those who love Him.

Amen. We agree on this I believe.

Trusting in the finished work of the cross is not a salvation based on works, but by grace through faith.

Spot on ole chap, though I doubt you and I understand these terms in the same ways.

 

[Ben johnson]

If in the final assessment we have contributed anything to our salvation, we have not a gospel of grace.

We do not have a gospel of Grace.

We have a gospel of grace THROUGH FAITH.

Further, if something from us be needed that is not by grace, the we are all damned.

Have you heard of A.T.Robertson? His commentaries on the entire New Testament can be read at places like Crosswalk.com. Commenting on Eph2:8, Robertson says: "Grace is God's part, faith is ours."

John 3:16 says whoever believes in Him shall not perish. Obviously we must believe in Him. Conditional election.

Absolutely right. "Without faith it is impossible to please God; for he who COMES to God must believe He IS, and that He is a rewarder of those who SEEK Him. Heb11:6

Read James 2:5 and consider what it says. God chooses us based on His knowledge of our hearts, He keeps His promise to those who love Him. Trusting in the finished work of the cross is not a salvation based on works, but by grace through faith.

Well said.

 

[inchristalone221]

We do not have a gospel of Grace.

We have a gospel of grace THROUGH FAITH.

We have a gospel of grace through righteousness imputed and faith imparted.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

Now, I'm not a world class Greek scholar (I do my best), but "this" has as its antecedent "faith." Your faith is not your own, but it is the gift of God.

 

[cygnusx1]

We have a gospel of grace through righteousness imputed and faith imparted.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

Now, I'm not a world class Greek scholar (I do my best), but "this" has as its antecedent "faith." Your faith is not your own, but it is the gift of God.

Amen!!!

And that is why Jesus called it "a work of God"

and Paul called it a "grant" / gift!

And why Peter called believers "those who have obtained like precious faith ....."

 

[Ben johnson]

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

Now, I'm not a world class Greek scholar (I do my best), but "this" has as its antecedent "faith." Your faith is not your own, but it is the gift of God.

I would recommend reading Roberton's Word Pictures on Eph2:8. (You can access his commentary through sites like crosswalk.com) But it doesn't take "being a Greek Scholar" to recognize that "dia pistis", is a prepositional phrase --- so is "by grace". Thus, there are five modifiers to the one subject:

1. (subject) by grace
2. (subject) through faith
3. (subject) is not of yourselves
4. (subject) is the gift of God
5. (subject) is not as a result of works

What is the SUBJECT, ICA?

The translators of the NASV, footnote "THAT", with "that salvation". That's the subject --- the entire opening phrase, "by grace have you been saved through faith".

THAT SALVATION.

THAT SALVATION is by grace.
THAT SALVATION is through faith.
THAT SALVATION is the gift of God (given by grace, received through faith)
THAT SALVATION is not of yourselves
THAT SALVATION is not of works.

As John1:13 says, "that salvation", is "becoming God's begotten"; and "begottenness is NOT of man nor of man's will but OF GOD" --- but how do we BECOME "begotten/adopted-children"? John1:12 says very clearly: by receiving Jesus, by BELIEVING in His name.

You cannot have a doctrine that says both "God GIFTS/INSTILLS believing-faith in the few whom He has CHOSEN", and also recognizes (and there's no way to deny the verses) that God commands ALL MEN EVERYWHERE to repent (Acts17:30), and God desires ALL MEN (including kings and ALL IN AUTHORITY!) to be saved and come to knowledge of the truth. 1Tim2:1-4

All Scripture must harmonize, ICA.

 

[Philip]

Now, I'm not a world class Greek scholar (I do my best), but "this" has as its antecedent "faith." Your faith is not your own, but it is the gift of God.

Surely you recognize that kai touto (and this) is neuter. Both pistis (faith) and charis (grace) are feminine. It would be quite unusual for a neuter pronoun to refer to a feminine noun. If St Paul had intended to refer to faith, kai taute would have been more appropriate.

 

[inchristalone221]

Interesting points on the Greek. I'm back to the drawing board on that. Like I said, I'm still learning Greek.

You cannot have a doctrine that says both "God GIFTS/INSTILLS believing-faith in the few whom He has CHOSEN", and also recognizes (and there's no way to deny the verses) that God commands ALL MEN EVERYWHERE to repent (Acts17:30), and God desires ALL MEN (including kings and ALL IN AUTHORITY!) to be saved and come to knowledge of the truth. 1Tim2:1-4

1. In regard to God commanding all men everywhere to repent:
Are you suggesting that God cannot command something of which we are incapable? That is the heart of the Pelagian heresy (that anthropocentric, arrogant alternative to the gospel)! I'm not suggesting that you are Pelagian, I am only pointing out the implicit Pelagianism of your claim.

2. As to God desiring all men to be saved:

One must understand that God is not like us. We have one will, and we anthropomorphize God to have the same. I suggest that article by John Piper: Are there two wills in God?

 

[Philip]

I
1. In regard to God commanding all men everywhere to repent:
Are you suggesting that God cannot command something of which we are incapable? That is the heart of the Pelagian heresy (that anthropocentric, arrogant alternative to the gospel)! I'm not suggesting that you are Pelagian, I am only pointing out the implicit Pelagianism of your claim.[Emphasis mine]

To be precise, Pelagius argued that God would not command man to something he could not do. Pelagius did not claim that God could not command such.

2. As to God desiring all men to be saved:

One must understand that God is not like us. We have one will, and we anthropomorphize God to have the same. I suggest that article by John Piper: Are there two wills in God?

Such arguments have been brought up before in this forum, if not this thread. Several questions were left open: Does each Person in the Holy Trinity have two (or more) wills? If the two (or more) wills in one Person do not agree, how is the dispute settled? Is there some sort of uber-will that mediates?

 

[inchristalone221]

Such arguments have been brought up before in this forum, if not this thread. Several questions were left open: Does each Person in the Holy Trinity have two (or more) wills? If the two (or more) wills in one Person do not agree, how is the dispute settled? Is there some sort of uber-will that mediates?

I would say the Godhead as a whole has two wills, not each person. I would further believe that the sovereign will of God is always enacted even if it is against His moral will because even in violations of His moral will He is glorified in the just punishment of such violation. His sovereign will, however, cannot be over-rided, otherwise He is not God in any meaningful sense of the word.

 

[holdon]

because even in violations of His moral will He is glorified in the just punishment of such violation. His sovereign will, however, cannot be over-rided, otherwise He is not God in any meaningful sense of the word.

So, God violates His own moral will??? Hello?

 

[Philip]

.

 

[Philip]

I would say the Godhead as a whole has two wills, not each person.

This makes no sense. A will is an attribute of a person. Scripture clearly indicates that the Father and the Son have distinct wills:

Luke 22:42
Father, if you are willing, take this cup away from me. Yet not my will but yours be done.”​

I would further believe that the sovereign will of God is always enacted even if it is against His moral will because even in violations of His moral will He is glorified in the just punishment of such violation. His sovereign will, however, cannot be over-rided, otherwise He is not God in any meaningful sense of the word.

By the same logic, if God willingly and willfully does what is against His moral will God is not a moral being in any meaningful sense of the word. How can we say that He is true to Himself?

 

[heymikey80]

Surely you recognize that kai touto (and this) is neuter. Both pistis (faith) and charis (grace) are feminine. It would be quite unusual for a neuter pronoun to refer to a feminine noun. If St Paul had intended to refer to faith, kai taute would have been more appropriate.

If Paul had only meant to call out faith it wouldn't have been enough (as you note, both xaris and pistis are feminine).

Interestingly, there is no noun present that would draw a neuter form of the pronoun. But Paul isn't talking through his turban. It's not unusual for touto to refer to an implied noun in Greek, though -- the entire process of salvation, grace, and faith. Paul's answer is more comprehensive. It's all a gift of God.

As grace is no longer grace when it's work, and work is explicitly removed in the phrase on the heels of this one, anyway ("not out of works", 2:9a).

 

[heymikey80]

You make two errors in your assumptions about my statement. First, when I stated 'If we are cleansed from our sins...', in no way did I mean that we would not sin again. Second, I do not agree with your association of perfection with the Garden.

Hm, then I'm not at all sure why you asked the initial question, " If we are cleansed of our sins, what is left to be payed or covered?"

It'd be rather obvious that, if there were only payment for sins to that point there would be a couple of obvious needs for a covering.

1. The need for cleansing from future sins.
2. The need for cleansing from the inclination of our very nature, which would bring about more sins. This in itself needs to be covered, else we are always in danger of falling. "Anything that is not of faith is sin."

 

[cygnusx1]

To be precise, Pelagius argued that God would not command man to something he could not do. Pelagius did not claim that God could not command such.



Such arguments have been brought up before in this forum, if not this thread. Several questions were left open: Does each Person in the Holy Trinity have two (or more) wills? If the two (or more) wills in one Person do not agree, how is the dispute settled? Is there some sort of uber-will that mediates?

I join with Calvin on this one ........

Calvin was well aware of this question and he did not tone down the mystery with which it confronts us. He is constantly refuting, by appeal to Scripture, the objections which unbelief registers against this doctrine. Much of the argumentation in the last three chapters of Book I of the Institutes is concerned with it. It is of interest that the last work in which Calvin was engaged before his work was arrested by the hand of death was his exposition of the prophecy of Ezekiel. His work ended with Ezekiel 20:44. He did not even complete his exposition of the chapter. At Ezekiel 18:23, in dealing with the discrepancy between God’s will to the salvation of all and the election of God by which he predestinates only a fixed number to salvation, he says: “If any one again objects — this is making God act with duplicity, the answer is ready, that God always wishes the same thing, though by different ways, and in a manner inscrutable to us. Although, therefore, God’s will is simple, yet great variety is involved in it, as far as our senses are concerned. Besides, it is not surprising that our eyes should be blinded by intense light, so that we cannot certainly judge how God wishes all to be saved, and yet has devoted all the reprobate to eternal destruction, and wishes them to perish. While we look now through a glass darkly, we should be content with the measure of our own intelligence.”

http://www.the-highway.com/calvin-so...ty_Murray.html