Peanut Gallery - An Atheistic world view, reasonable and logical, or not?

[Dave Ellis]

No, I do not believe biological extraterrestrial aliens are visiting the earth. See here for my views on this subject.

It affects my world view in several ways, but here is one tangible way: I feel our problems must be solved by us here on earth and therefore we cannot fantasize about colonizing other worlds to "save" humanity.

So is lacking belief in aliens a worldview? I doubt you would claim it is....

Likewise, to use your words to describe our position:


No, I do not believe a god exists.

It affects my world view in several ways, but here is one tangible way: I feel our problems must be solved by us here on earth and therefore we cannot fantasize about (insert religious claim here) to "save" humanity.


So would you then call Atheism a worldview in and of itself? Or just something that would influence your actual worldview?

 

[OrdinaryClay]

Of course there is.

Not believing in God influences a persons view on life and the world around them. This forms a worldview. This worldview does not have to be rigidly held among all atheists in order to be considered an atheist worldview.

While lacking a belief in a deity can influence how you view the world, it is not a worldview in and of itself.

This influence forms a collection of opinions and views of the world. How many beliefs it takes to "equal" a world view is a meaningless debate. What matters is that not the number but the affect and behavioral results.

 

[OrdinaryClay]

No, I do not believe a god exists.

It affects my world view in several ways, but here is one tangible way: I feel our problems must be solved by us here on earth and therefore we cannot fantasize about (insert religious claim here) to "save" humanity.

So your unbelief produces a set of additional or follow-on beliefs. This collection produces a world view which can be considered an atheistic world view.

So would you then call Atheism a worldview in and of itself? Or just something that would influence your actual worldview?

It doesn't matter - IOW - it's a red herring. What matters is the total collection resulting from your unbelief.

 

[Dave Ellis]

This influence forms a collection of opinions and views of the world. How many beliefs it takes to "equal" a world view is a meaningless debate. What matters is that not the number but the affect and behavioral results.

However Atheism isn't even a belief. All the position can do is influence other beliefs you hold.

Simply not believing that a god exists is certainly not a worldview.

 

[OrdinaryClay]

...I do not believe a god exists.

Your sentence above is semantically equivalent to "I believe a god does not exist". Clearly atheism is a belief.

However Atheism isn't even a belief.

Cognitive Dissonance is common among atheists in this regard.

 

[Dave Ellis]

So your unbelief produces a set of additional or follow-on beliefs. This collection produces a world view which can be considered an atheistic world view.

So would you say your overall worldview is mainly defined a non extraterrestrial worldview?

You're proving my point for me. I said Atheism can influence a worldview, but it is not a worldview by itself (same with a lack of belief in aliens).

If Atheism (or non extraterrestialism) can affect your opinions on a subject, which then influences your worldview, then by definition your worldview is a separate entity from atheism.

Otherwise you'd be trying to argue that atheism produces a set of beliefs, which then influences your atheism. It doesn't make sense.

It doesn't matter - IOW - it's a red herring. What matters is the total collection resulting from your unbelief.

It's not a red herring at all, in fact your argument is backing up what I am saying.

At best, Atheism is an influence, but it's not a worldview in and of itself. Everything you are saying is in agreement with that statement.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Your sentence above is semantically equivalent to "I believe a god does not exist". Clearly atheism is a belief.

Ah, and and now I see where your problem is in understanding my viewpoint.

Your statement here is demonstrably incorrect. I do not believe a god exists is not equivalent with I believe no gods exist. That is a common misunderstanding among Christians in regards to Atheists.

I'll demonstrate with an example:

Say you and I were sitting at a table and I claim to have $5,000 in my wallet, but you can not check my wallet or be allowed to see any clear evidence I am telling the truth about my claim. I'd then ask if you believe me.

On one hand, it's not impossible that I'm carrying around that much money, but it's also quite unlikely that I would do so. Given my total aversion to producing any evidence for my claim, you also have no reason to believe I'm telling the truth.

However, it's also not a high enough amount of money that it's completely impossible that I could have it on me, so you're not really justified in asserting I'm lying either. I could actually be telling the truth, but don't want to show off a large sum of money in my pocket.

In short, you're in a position where withholding judgment until evidence is presented is the only justifiable position to have.

In short, you lack a belief that I have $5,000 in my pocket, but that is not the same thing as believing I don't have $5,000 in my pocket.


In regards to the vast majority of Atheists, we are in a similar position. We haven't been presented with evidence for god that would make belief justifiable, so we withhold judgment until evidence can be presented. That is not the same thing as believing no god exists though.

That's why atheism is not a belief, it's a lack of belief.

Cognitive Dissonance is common among atheists in this regard.

Hopefully the above example clears that up, there's no cognitive dissonance involved. In fact, I'd say atheism is the only justifiable position to hold given the available evidence.

 

[Eight Foot Manchild]

Of course there is.

No there isn't.

A worldview is a system of beliefs.

Atheism is a lack of one belief.

Not believing in God influences a persons view on life and the world around them. This forms a worldview. This worldview does not have to be rigidly held among all atheists in order to be considered an atheist worldview.

'There exist worldviews which do not include god in their system of beliefs' is not the same claim as 'atheism is a worldview'.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

So your unbelief produces a set of additional or follow-on beliefs. This collection produces a world view which can be considered an atheistic world view.

It doesn't matter - IOW - it's a red herring. What matters is the total collection resulting from your unbelief.

Not really. I don't play golf. You wouldn't say I have a "non-golfer's worldview." If you want to know about my worldview, then you should ask. Saying that I have an "atheistic worldview" implies that you already know what my worldview is. Yet all you know is that I'm an atheist. That isn't enough information for you to reach reliable conclusions about my worldview. In a similar vein, if someone says "Im a theist", that too doesn't provide enough information for me to reach reliable conclusions about their worldview. All I know from that statement is that they believe in one or more deities. Whatever else they may believe - about life, death, suffering, happiness, ethics, etc - is not disclosed in that simple statement. Why then should we expect that the statement "I'm an atheist" reveals so much about a person?

 

[quatona]

I must say that I find it quite nonsensical to define someone´s worldview by reducing it to an assumption they do not make (and even call it after that).

"God" does not play a part in my worldview, and neither does this concept influence my worldview.

Granted, there are some necessary follow-up things that I do not believe either (e.g. that there is no God to sort things out for us) - but stating that is pretty trivial, isn´t it? They all are beliefs I do not hold, either.

For me, the point is that when I say "I am an atheist" you know next to nothing about my worldview (although there are worldviews that you can easily conclude are not mine).

I´ll agree with calling atheism a worldview as soon as "not a plumber" is acknowledged as a profession.

It gets even more ridiculous when the operational term changes from "an atheist worldview" (which is merely funny because this category puts the emphasis on something that people do not believe in), for the above mentioned reasons) to "the atheist worldview" (which is a flat out lie).

 

[KCfromNC]

Of course there is.

Not believing in God influences a persons view on life and the world around them. This forms a worldview. This worldview does not have to be rigidly held among all atheists in order to be considered an atheist worldview.

Any worldview that any atheist holds is an atheist worldview, by definition, since it doesn't include a belief in god. But the discussion is about the atheist world view, which implies a consistent set of beliefs held by all atheists. That's what is a figment of some people's imagination. If you disagree, feel free to enumerate the beliefs of the atheist world view and watch yourself be corrected by actual atheists who fail to hold those beliefs.

 

[Davian]

No, I do not believe biological extraterrestrial aliens are visiting the earth.

Neither do I.

See here for my views on this subject.

Hilarious.

It affects my world view in several ways, but here is one tangible way: I feel our problems must be solved by us here on earth and therefore we cannot fantasize about colonizing other worlds to "save" humanity.

Your Christian worldview, with gods and demons and all that, influences your opinion of UFO phenomena.

I lack belief in gods or demons or extraterrestrial aliens. How should that affect how I view the world?

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

David's post is up (2 parts); beginning here: #3

 

[Gadarene]

A Christian who doesn't know what 2LoT is. Colour me entirely unsurprised.

 

[Dave Ellis]

A Christian who doesn't know what 2LoT is. Colour me entirely unsurprised.

The sad thing is, I know he's had it explained to him before why the second law of thermodynamics doesn't apply to the situation, and he still trots out the same old argument.

He's not interested in an honest debate.

 

[Gadarene]

The sad thing is, I know he's had it explained to him before why the second law of thermodynamics doesn't apply to the situation, and he still trots out the same old argument.

He's not interested in an honest debate.

This much was apparent before he started monopolising the debate board in an attempt to make himself look good.

 

[Strathos]

A Christian who doesn't know what 2LoT is. Colour me entirely unsurprised.

Hey, plenty of Christians know that, and know it doesn't work the way creationists think it does.

 

[yonah_mishael]

This much was apparent before he started monopolising the debate board in an attempt to make himself look good.

I think the moderator should make a rule that the use of "you" aimed at the other position is out-of-bounds. He wants to argue about what freodin thinks rather than about the concepts. His goal is to make it personal, since he doesn't think that atheists really exist, and he wants to call freodin out on this.

 

[Eight Foot Manchild]

I think the moderator should make a rule that the use of "you" aimed at the other position is out-of-bounds. He wants to argue about what freodin thinks rather than about the concepts. His goal is to make it personal, since he doesn't think that atheists really exist, and he wants to call freodin out on this.

Let him use it. All it does is make him look like a crappy debater.

 

[Strathos]

So, is it true that TCMD subscribes to Chick Tracts? I heard someone say he does.