PCUSA takes another step away from the Scriptures

Apr 14, 2011
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The ordination standards are in Scripture and the Confessions. They are unchanged. G-6.0106b was passed because some people were interpreting Scripture and the Confessions to allow homosexuals, and other people wanted to put in an additional statement on sexual purity. But that concern didn't exist with adultery, as far as I can tell. G-6.0106b was only used in cases involving homosexuals. Adding G-6.0106b had no effect on adultery, nor will removing it. This change is not going to have any effect on anything other than ordination of gays, and that only in places that choose to adopt a certain interpretation of Scripture.
I ask this question elsewhere in this forum and never got an answer. I'll ask again. What happens when a gay pastor in the PCUSA recognizes gay marriage? If the Gays are allowed to lead, how will that effect on the popular Biblical rule of marriage between a man and woman?
 
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I think the fact is once a church tolerates sexual immorality and impurity, it will run rampant throughout the whole church in very short order. It will also attract people seeking a church which validates their sexual activities, and chase out those who still believe in Christian standards. The Episcopal Church is a good example, but the PCUSA will be there in about 5-10 years.

How are the Episcopal doing? Are they growing or are they in deep trouble?
 
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I think you're using a hostile reading. Scripture doesn't tell us that X can or cannot be ordained. It does set standards which we have to apply to the candidates. Those standards aren't black and white, because we get no candidates who aren't sinners. So we are guided by the standards, but they don't dictate a specific decision. I believe it's reasonable to call this assessing candidates with the guidance of Scripture. If I had been wording it I probably would have used the language from the ordination vows and said under the authority of Scriptured and guided by the confessions. We're already committed to doing that anyway. But I honestly don't think there was any intend to minimize the authority of Scripture.
I may have to agree on everything you have said. It seems the most honest approach to preaching the Gospel. I'm loosing interest in falling in the trap of literal possible misinterpretation of the old scriptures based on different cultures.
 
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It's irresponsible because we've got a few individuals and sessions who are panicked. Rabble-rousing does not help them make an honest assessment of the situation, to see what they really should do. I have the suspicion that some people *want* to create panic in the streets, but I trust you aren't one of them. If people honestly can't deal with the PCUSA the way it is, I want them to go someplace where they can live as Christians with a good conscience.
I think the new rules in the Book of Order applies to a very small group and we can almost sweep it under the rug and move on. At least we made that small group very happy and allowed them to move on even though it doesn't effect the rest of us.
 
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Mar 21, 2011
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I ask this question elsewhere in this forum and never got an answer. I'll ask again. What happens when a gay pastor in the PCUSA recognizes gay marriage? If the Gays are allowed to lead, how will that effect on the popular Biblical rule of marriage between a man and woman?

This is part of the plan. Once homosexuals get into the ministry, then inevitably they will push "gay marriage," conducting them even if it is against the church's rules and God's Word. That is what happens in every denomination that has allowed homosexuals into positions of leadership, they then try to spread their sexual immorality and call it good, especially since they now have the ecclesiastical power to spread this sin. It all comes down to the fact that unrepentant homosexuals are centered on advancing their immoral lifestyle, not on Christ.

That is why Christ-following churches have to be strong on this, and disavow practicing homosexuals as actual Ministers of the Word and Sacrament (this applies to others that are advancing other types of sexual immorality in ministry, such as open marriage, adultery, polyamory, etc.). Various presbyteries and sessions are doing this across the country, rejecting the actions of PCUSA and reaffirming the requirements of fidelity and chastity.
 
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Mar 21, 2011
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How are the Episcopal doing? Are they growing or are they in deep trouble?

They have lost a tremendous amount of members and attenders as Christians have fled. I was raised as an Episcopalian, my parish has lost 60% of its membership since the gay bishop was approved, and they have not had a rector (pastor) for over 4 years. Six Episcopal parishes in my area now have no regular pastor, and no longer conduct regular services. So the Episcopalians are literally and spiritually dying in most parts of the country.
 
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I think the new rules in the Book of Order applies to a very small group and we can almost sweep it under the rug and move on. At least we made that small group very happy and allowed them to move on even though it doesn't effect the rest of us.

I think most presbyteries and sessions will now pass rules saying that such people are not recognized as ministers and will not be allowed in their churches. Essentially the PCUSA churches that go for this will become more and more homosexual, but they will be rejected by most in the denomination because they are acting in rebellion to God, in direct violation of Scripture and the Confessions.
 
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Cajun Huguenot

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I think most presbyteries and sessions will now pass rules saying that such people are not recognized as ministers and will not be allowed in their churches. Essentially the PCUSA churches that go for this will become more and more homosexual, but they will be rejected by most in the denomination because they are acting in rebellion to God, in direct violation of Scripture and the Confessions.

I hope you are right but I fear that you are not. The PCUSA has chosen to continue on down the road toward denominational suicide. It, like all liberal denominations continues to loose members.

I know there are solid Christians and churches in the PCUSA and I pray for them, but I am not optimistic for the denomination.

Kenith
 
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I hope you are right but I fear that you are not. The PCUSA has chosen to continue on down the road toward denominational suicide. It, like all liberal denominations continues to loose members.

I know there are solid Christians and churches in the PCUSA and I pray for them, but I am not optimistic for the denomination.

Kenith

Well, I know our presbytery is already in serious trouble (it voted for deleting fidelity and chastity). The largest churches in the presbytery (which are evangelical) have halted giving money to the presbytery and have pretty much cut ties except to the extent they have to to protect their own rights,and are pretty much in passive-aggressive mode. So now the presbytery can talk all the want but they no longer have money to operate. So the weaker liberal churches are going to have to decide what to do--lay off all presbytery staff, sue the evangelical churches for support, claim they control the presbytery and can force the evangelical churches to adopt the changes? Right now the presbytery is pretty much in shambles. The fact is no one is willing to fund the liberal agenda any longer.
 
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Cajun Huguenot

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Well, I know our presbytery is already in serious trouble (it voted for deleting fidelity and chastity). The largest churches in the presbytery (which are evangelical) have halted giving money to the presbytery and have pretty much cut ties except to the extent they have to to protect their own rights,and are pretty much in passive-aggressive mode. So now the presbytery can talk all the want but they no longer have money to operate. So the weaker liberal churches are going to have to decide what to do--lay off all presbytery staff, sue the evangelical churches for support, claim they control the presbytery and can force the evangelical churches to adopt the changes? Right now the presbytery is pretty much in shambles. The fact is no one is willing to fund the liberal agenda any longer.

Well Jimmy P, I see that as good news. Y'all remain in my prayers, as brothers in Christ fighting the good fight in a once great (in a godly way) denomination in Christ Kingdom.

Kenith
 
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hedrick

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I never quite understood the argument about the PCUSA being apostate due to denying the deity of Jesus Christ. I did look into the accusation that many church believe that PCUSA deny Jesus being God or something. All I saw during my deep searches was that other churches accuse the PCUSA of denying the identity of Jesus Christ and at the same time I haven't yet found that they have. I never really understood that issue. It like reading that other churches claims PCUSA allows gays, years ago, to be ordained and they just now change the book of order just months ago. I never understood how churches can predict the future of something not yet happened and claim that it has happened. That was the most confusing searches ever for me. I found churches to create lies and flood Internet when such events haven't yet happened.

Like many churches, we have a lunatic fringe. I've been a number of presbytery meetings where pastors give a statement of faith, and they all include the Trinity and Incarnation, but I have heard quotations from speakers at conferences that seem to reject Christ's divinity. (But you have to be careful. A year or so ago there was a widespread quotation that turned out to have been taken badly out of context.)

But it's very true that we are more tolerant of differences than conservatives would be. That means that we have some people on the ends of the spectrum, where the PCA probably doesn't. But it's not typical of the PCUSA.
 
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hedrick

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Using 1925 kind of throws me off. I have little booklet on Presbyterian history and I find many divisions of the church. I found north in two divided parts that merged together in the North and I found two south in two parts that merged together and I found north and south merged together and merging other reformed Presbyterian churches after modification the old confessional creeds to satisfy both parties. The popular PCA split off this and now hearing rumors among PCA on splitting again. And at the same time the Presbyterians in the England, France, Germany area are very different than in America.

What do you mean by "stable" since 1925?

Up to the early 1920s, the predecessor denomination attempted to enforce the 5 "fundamentals", the virgin birth, blood atonement, etc. (The term is misleading because it's really the fundamentalist distinctives, not the key doctrines such as the Trinity and Incarnation).

Around 1925 (actually 1924, I believe), a number of theologians from both conservative and liberal perspectives published the "Auburn Affirmation," saying that although some of them accepted those ideas, none of them considered the ideas essential. One of those ideas was the inerrancy of Scripture.

Very quickly, the Church effectively accepted that. It doesn't mean that everyone abandoned inerrancy, but that it was fairly widely agreed that it wasn't essential. In reaction to this and associated events, the most conservative members formed the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, in 1936.

One key event in this was the rejection of J. Gresham Machen, who was a well-known conservative. He started his protect around 1929, and was ejected in 1935. (I believe the way he was treated was a big mistake, although I also disagree with his theology.)

Obviously the changes took some time to play out, but I'd say that the Auburn Affirmation in 1924 is the best place to draw the line. After that, the PCUSA at least accepted theological approaches that aren't very far from today's theology, although the issue of gays hadn't come up then.

I wouldn't want to say that there have been no new ideas since 1925, but I would say that since that time the church has fairly consistently accepted moderately liberal ideas. The period of time when G-6.0106b was in effect was, in my opinion, an exception, during which a literalist approach to that one issue was mandated. (Actually, you could consider starting that clock at 1989.) But that approach really only affected the approach to homosexuality, not the overall theological tenor of the denomination.

You're right that there were various mergers. Some of the groups were slightly more conservative before merging. But I think the northern church has maintained a fairly consistent position of permitting positions that do not accept inerrancy or the ideas that flow from it, while maintaining a basically Nicene position (although with a more flexible view of what the Trinity means than in some more conservative churches).
 
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hedrick

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I ask this question elsewhere in this forum and never got an answer. I'll ask again. What happens when a gay pastor in the PCUSA recognizes gay marriage? If the Gays are allowed to lead, how will that effect on the popular Biblical rule of marriage between a man and woman?

Currently they will get in trouble. The Worship book, which is part of the constitution, defines marriage as between a man and a woman. There have been clear rulings that any ceremony that is intended to be equivalent to a marriage between two persons of the same sex is not permitted. There have been a couple of cases before church courts on that. Nothing has changed in that position.

Note that it has always been permitted, even during the days of G-6.0101b, to bless a gay union, just not to call it a marriage.

I'm sure there will be proposals to change this. I'd be surprised if they passed at the moment. I assume they will at some point.
 
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Using 1925 kind of throws me off. I have little booklet on Presbyterian history and I find many divisions of the church. I found north in two divided parts that merged together in the North and I found two south in two parts that merged together and I found north and south merged together and merging other reformed Presbyterian churches after modification the old confessional creeds to satisfy both parties. The popular PCA split off this and now hearing rumors among PCA on splitting again. And at the same time the Presbyterians in the England, France, Germany area are very different than in America.

What do you mean by "stable" since 1925?

Any "stability" was totally destroyed by the ratification of 10-A (removing the requirements for ordained members to be faithful in marriage or chaste in singleness). I think the difference with what has happened now with PCUSA is that it is no longer an issue of liberal vs. conservative, or leeway in the interpretation of Scripture, but is a direct repudiation of numerous passages of Scripture by part of the denomination. The result will have to be that churches must pick one side or the other, there is no middle ground when you are asked whether you agree with having pastors who are unrepentedly engaging in adultery or other sexual immorality specifically condemned by the Bible.

So the present departure from Scripture and orthodox Christian belief is going to force the denomination into two pieces, whether or not the break is formal or informal. There is no longer any "big tent" that both parts can live in, because this is a black and white issue that goes to the heart of whether or not you believe that God is calling you to obedience to his commands as part of being a Christian. Part of the church believes that purity and chastity as taught in the New Testament are essential characteristics of being a Christian, the other does not.
 
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hedrick

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Any "stability" was totally destroyed by the ratification of 10-A .

The issue is precisely inerrancy, which has not been required in the PCUSA since 1925 or so.

However as I'm sure you are aware, to look at the Biblical evidence in any real way is prohibited by the CF rules.
 
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