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PCE and Double Predestination...

The Righterzpen

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was judas his disciple ?

next

Hum.... Didn't address what John 6:38-40 says!

Does claiming you are a believer mean you really are? Even if you followed Jesus around in his / your earthly life for 3 plus years. Apparently Judas was not elect unto salvation.

There are a lot of people who claim to follow Christ who will hear "Depart from me you workers of iniquity. I never knew you!" Matthew 7:23
 
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Jesus is YHWH

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Hum.... Didn't address what John 6:38-40 says!

Does claiming you are a believer mean you really are? Even if you followed Jesus around in his / your earthly life for 3 plus years. Apparently Judas was not elect unto salvation.

There are a lot of people who claim to follow Christ who will hear "Depart from me you workers of iniquity. I never knew you!" Matthew 7:23
I don't need to address your side tracking post. The fact is judas was a disciple just like the others with the same call, drawing, chosen, election as the others. Its the stumbling block for tulip/calvinism.

It proves Calvinism is a strawman. And Boettner has it right when he says the following:

Loraine Boettner has stated on p. 59 of his book, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination,

"prove any one of them true and all of the others will follow as logical and necessary parts of the system. Prove any one of them false and the whole system must be abandoned."

1)I have already proven irresistible grace is not true with Acts 7:51
2)I have proven the atonement is not limited- John 1:20, 3:16, 1 Tim 2:4-6, 2 Pet 3:9 and 1 John 2:2
3)I have proven that election is not unconditional- whosever will may come, that means all, everyone from numerous passages . John 1:12 John 3:16

Say goodbye to TULIP.

hope this helps !!!
 
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The Righterzpen

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I don't need to address your side tracking post. The fact is judas was a disciple just like the others with the same call, drawing, chosen, election as the others. Its the stumbling block for tulip/calvinism.

It proves Calvinism is a strawman. And Boettner has it right when he says the following:

Loraine Boettner has stated on p. 59 of his book, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination,

"prove any one of them true and all of the others will follow as logical and necessary parts of the system. Prove any one of them false and the whole system must be abandoned."

1)I have already proven irresistible grace is not true with Acts 7:51
2)I have proven the atonement is not limited- John 1:20, 3:16, 1 Tim 2:4-6, 2 Pet 3:9 and 1 John 2:2
3)I have proven that election is not unconditional- whosever will may come, that means all, everyone from numerous passages . John 1:12 John 3:16

Say goodbye to TULIP.

hope this helps !!!

I humbly accept your acquiescence that you simply can't answer the question.

hope that helps !!!!
 
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The Righterzpen

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hope this helps !!!

Actually, Jesus acknowledges in a couple of passages that though Judas was chosen as a disciple; that did not mean he had eternal life. John 6:69-71

Matter of fact, the choosing of Judas as a disciple was for the fulfillment of Scripture not redemption. John 17:12
 
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Jesus is YHWH

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Actually, Jesus acknowledges in a couple of passages that though Judas was chosen as a disciple; that did not mean he had eternal life. John 6:69-71

Matter of fact, the choosing of Judas as a disciple was for the fulfillment of Scripture not redemption. John 17:12
so election/ chosen does not mean one receives eternal life. Thank you for admitting tulip is false.
 
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The Righterzpen

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1)I have already proven irresistible grace is not true with Acts 7:51
2)I have proven the atonement is not limited- John 1:20, 3:16, 1 Tim 2:4-6, 2 Pet 3:9 and 1 John 2:2
3)I have proven that election is not unconditional- whosever will may come, that means all, everyone from numerous passages . John 1:12 John 3:16

Would you like an explanation of all these passages?
I can provide those; seeing how you are so interested in having Scripture to support a position!

hope this helps !!!
 
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The Righterzpen

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so election/ chosen does not mean one receives eternal life. Thank you for admitting tulip is false.

And... David chose to commit adultery and God allowed it.
Adam chose to sin and God allowed it.

To "choose" in any given context, isn't always talking about eternal redemption. To claim that it is, is silly.

Jesus chose to walk to Bethany. That choice has nothing to do with eternal redemption.
 
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Jesus is YHWH

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Would you like an explanation of all these passages?
I can provide those; seeing how you are so interested in having Scripture to support a position!
That is up to you I know what they mean to a calvinist.
 
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The Righterzpen

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That is up to you I know what they mean to a calvinist.

Oh yeah, that's right, you'd stated you taught this for 40 years, or something like that?

Romans 1:20-22

So if Calvinism is a lie and God is sovereign; why are you so offended that there are people who believe this? If it's all up to someone's "free will" anyways; why do you care?

Seems to me, this is kind of like the argument between the atheist and the theist. Doesn't matter if you're right. It only matters if I'm right.
 
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Jesus is YHWH

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Oh yeah, that's right, you'd stated you taught this for 40 years, or something like that?

Romans 1:20-22

So if Calvinism is a lie and God is sovereign; why are you so offended that there are people who believe this? If it's all up to someone's "free will" anyways; why do you care?

Kind of like the argument between the atheist and the theist. Doesn't matter if you're right. It only matters if I'm right.
Free will is biblical and calvinism has it wrong. Jesus said if any man is willing to come and follow Him let him come. Choose today who you will serve. free will is just another calvinism misnomer.

hope this helps !!!
 
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The Righterzpen

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Free will is biblical and calvinism has it wrong. Jesus said if any man is willing to come and follow Him let him come. Choose today who you will serve. free will is just another calvinism misnomer.

hope this helps !!!

So..... If I believe I'm predestine to election and I'm wrong; and it's actually my "free will" that has saved me; I'm still saved according to your doctrine.

So why are you so offended by what I believe that you feel such an undying necessity to prove to me that I'm wrong?

Again, doesn't matter if you're right; it only matters if I'm right!

hope this helps !!!
 
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So..... If I believe I'm predestine to election and I'm wrong; and it's actually my will that has saved me; I'm still saved according to your doctrine.

So why are you so offended by what I believe that you feel such an undying necessity to prove to me that I'm wrong?

Again, doesn't matter if you're right; it only matters if I'm right!
If you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believed in your heart that God raised Him from the dead then you shall be saved. Belief in the gospel precedes the new birth/salvation.

So God knows if you are saved, not me. And hopefully you know if you are or not which is why the Bible tells those in the church to examine themselves to see if they are in the faith . Test yourselves to see if you past the test. Self examination is biblical. The bible says you can know that you have eternal life.

hope this helps !!!
 
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The Righterzpen

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If you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believed in your heart that God raised Him from the dead then you shall be saved. Belief in the gospel precedes the new birth/salvation.

So God knows if you are saved, not me. And hopefully you know if you are or not which is why the Bible tells those in the church to examine themselves to see if they are in the faith . Test yourselves to see if you past the test. Self examination is biblical. The bible says you can know that you have eternal life.

hope this helps !!!

So.... your objection is... what? That you believe those who believe in "calvinism" don't examine themselves? They just "take for granted" that they are elect? Is that what you are so offended over?

I can say from personal experience of knowing that God owes me NOTHING! That I have never assumed that I was elect.
 
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TedT

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So what is it about me or my theological position that you have this burning desire to convince me of your doctrine?

I invited general discussion upon an idea. Period. You stated the idea clearly so I gave you mention as an introduction, my springboard, if you will. If you are too egocentric to resist thinking it was all about you then I'm sorry, I won't do it again.

If you don't care what I think; than why invite me to this thread?
I did invite your ideas but you derailed it into this...whatever it is.

I have studied PCE theology since the mid 70s so I know the opposition very well and that it may is based upon 4000 years of misinterpretation. So when all someone offers is a list of scriptures they throw at me like stones, it wastes my time. When they ignore my pov and try to rampage over me without discussion of my pov but only by repeated assertions about how wrong I must be, it wastes my time.

I cut my teeth on James Oliver Buswell's Systematic Theology apologetic for Calvinism and though he rejected pce, he at least discussed it sensibly and he actually gave me my intro into the ideas when I saw what I believed to be unsettling weakness in his arguments.

Since I am not in charge of who accepts or rejects my pov, that is another Person's job, I have no vested interest in any one particular person's response except in how it advances my own understanding. Dogmatic reiterations of what I have come to believe are blasphemies does me no good, though questions about how orthodox interpretations of doctrines can be blasphemous are invited as they have been instrumental in forcing me to dig deeper.

My apology, in the theological sense, for the last 40 yrs or so, has been:
I present the verses I do which witness to our pre-conception existence, along with some others which I feel make a lot more sense when they are interpreted in light of this doctrine.

Now, being that hardly anyone has searched the Scriptures in light of the pre-conception view, these Scriptures have rarely been interpreted this way before in any commentary or discussion. Therefore, it stands to reason that such an exegesis of these Scriptures will be new and that it will be fairly unique, that is, that almost all the other interpretations of the same Scriptures will be different.

In other words, any verse that conveys the idea of pre-existence has rarely been interpreted this way before because almost every exegete automatically looks for a different interpretation when they read such an interpretation. This being the case, a mere list of Scriptures will not constitute proof of scriptural support for this doctrine but, to provide such proof, such a list will have to be accompanied by an in-depth exegesis of the said Scriptures.

Providing only a list of pertinent verses without the accompanying new exegesis would only tend to prove to its searchers that this doctrine had no scriptural support, simply because they would tend to interpret the Scriptures that supply proof of our pre-conception existence only in orthodox terms, in much the same way that everybody used to interpret the Scriptures regarding the Christ King.
 
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The Righterzpen

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I invited general discussion upon an idea. Period. You stated the idea clearly so I gave you mention as an introduction,

This thread started from another thread that was in Semper Reformada. In that thread, someone else asked a question about double predestination. Several people answered; but I was the only person you 'invited" to this thread.

If you are too egocentric to resist thinking it was all about you then I'm sorry, I won't do it again.

So thus the intent was apparently that you thought you were going to "make an example" out of me.

I have studied PCE theology since the mid 70s so I know the opposition very well and that it may is based upon 4000 years of misinterpretation. So when all someone offers is a list of scriptures they throw at me like stones, it wastes my time. When they ignore my pov and try to rampage over me without discussion of my pov but only by repeated assertions about how wrong I must be, it wastes my time.

Yet you are insistent on trying to refute me. (If I'm "wasting your time" why does this conversation keep going?) I've given more than adequate refute to this doctrine of yours.

Providing only a list of pertinent verses without the accompanying new exegesis would only tend to prove to its searchers that this doctrine had no scriptural support, simply because they would tend to interpret the Scriptures that supply proof of our pre-conception existence only in orthodox terms, in much the same way that everybody used to interpret the Scriptures regarding the Christ King.

If one is to proclaim a doctrine that is Scripturally sound; one must take in all the Scripture, comparing it to the rest and reconciling how passages fit together without discarding the ones that don't fit the preconceived doctrine. You have failed miserably in doing this.

So I present you with the same question I left @Jesus is YHWH with.

What's driving the compulsion you have to "prove your point"; particularly directed at people who are "calvinistic"?

Even if your doctrine was Scripturally sound; it would have no application to us on earth because we are all sinners. We would all be "demonic souls sown into human bodies." And thus according to your doctrine we are all condemned anyways. So, what hope is in that?

But if what you are saying (like @Jesus is YHWH confession that he "taught calvinism for 40 (or how ever many) years" you know your doctrine is false because you know all the arguments against it.

I cut my teeth on James Oliver Buswell's Systematic Theology apologetic for Calvinism

But apparently you are in the same boat @Jesus is YHWH is in!

Which leads to the question of why are you so offended at what I believe that you feel compelled to argue with me over what you believe?

(Seems to me that you've latched onto this PCE doctrine because you just want to believe that you are elect and are unwilling to contend with your own sin. Seeing how this doctrine states that the elect do not sin are not subject to the fall.)

Most of these types of debates generally stem from the fact that people like yourself find the doctrine of election and predestination offensive. And the base human objection is that man can't control God, because God doesn't owe ANY of us ANYTHING!
 
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