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PCE and Double Predestination...

The Righterzpen

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it sure would be nice for some scripture to substantiate your claims and assumptions in your post.

GOD HATES EVIL MEN

"These six things doth the Lord hate; yea, seven are an abomination unto him: a proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, a false witness that speaks lies, and he that sows discord among brethren." Prov 6: 16

Notice the context of the things it states that God is hating. These are stated first as aspects of behavior, than parts of the body and than whole individuals. I know it is a common belief today to say "God hates the sin and loves the sinner!"; but if we look at this passage we see that is not what it's saying.

Take a moment to consider the contradiction of that idea in the context of salvation. If God loves all sinners, how effectual is that love if some of those sinners end up under His wrath? That is like a negligent parent telling their 4 year old "We love you honey; now you can go play in the traffic!" Just as the love of a parent is manifest by protecting a child from their own childishness; so the love of God is manifest by protecting the believer, not only from God's wrath; but death it's-self befalling the individual before redemption has taken place.

"The fear of the Lord is to hate evil: pride, and arrogance, and the evil way and the froward mouth do I hate." Prov 8:13

"The foolish shall not stand in your sight: you hate all workers of iniquity" Ps 5:6

"I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them my enemies" Ps 139:22

"And I shall set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you ...And I will destroy you high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcasses upon the carcasses of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you ... And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the Lord their God" Lev 26:11&30&44

"As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." Rom 9:13

Now all these statements of God hating sinners may seem strange to us in the context of the purpose of Jesus's incarnation. Jesus came to seek and to save sinners, so how can he hate them too? This doesn't seem to make much sense until we consider the notion of substitutionary atonement it's-self.

First of all, we must realize that these statements in the Hebrew Scriptures are in deed in the conscious thoughts of incarnated God. There were people Jesus hated with a perfect hatred and counted as his enemies. Looking at the gospels we see that more often than not, many of the Scribes and Pharisees were on the receiving end of Jesus's human anger. He called them hypocrites and said they were of their father the devil. (John 8:44 - Thus by deductive reasoning we can conclude that they are not children of God.) Now if all sinners are in the same predicament; how could he hate some and not others?

The second consideration we must take into account is that Jesus's "love" (as opposed to his hate) for an individual was predicated upon weather or not their sin would be redeemed. Those whom he would redeem were (probably in most cases) revealed to Jesus by the Father, through the Spirit. Without this redemption taking place he'd have no basis to love any of us, because his holiness would prevent it.

Now of course we see that there were people who would ultimately perish that Jesus displayed human pity for. The most obvious example was Judas. So, what was the basis of his pity if it wasn't out of love? That answer comes in God's righteousness and moral character. He doesn't take pleasure in the death of the wicked, (Ezek 33:11) even despite the fact that His righteousness still demands a payment.

I'm not sure I can explain this "theologically"; as much as maybe I have a certain personal understanding of it. I'm a veteran who did clean up after Desert Storm. I suffered physically, mentally and emotionally because of the war and I always figured I'd be overjoyed on that one day when I finally heard Saddam Hussein was dead. When that day did come; I had a reaction I'd never expected. I cried. I cried a lot; but not because he was dead, nor because I felt his death vindicated the suffering myself and others had endured. Yes, I was relieved that he was no longer a threat to his own people; but I also bore a certain dread for what I knew he would face on the other side of eternity. Couple this with the understanding that I too should suffer wrath for my own sin; made me (too) not take pleasure in the death of Saddam Hussein.

MAN IS BORN IN A SINFUL STATE

"For all this I considered in my heart even to declare all this, that the righteous and the wise, and their works, are in the hand of God" Eccl. 9:1

Notice that the righteous and the wise along with their works are in the hand of God. This is because he is the one who has made them righteous and wise.

"Behold I was shaped in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me" Ps 51:5

This is not saying that the act of his mother conceiving him was sin, only that he acknowledges the state of his sinfulness existed long before he made any choices about acting upon what was already inherent in his heart.

"The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies" Ps 58:3

Now, how does a baby "speak lies" when developmentally they don't even have the patterning in the brain to assemble thought. In order to assemble thoughts; one needs to have acquired some language. Linguistic acquisition is only partially formed at two years old. Even when a person is well into puberty, there are some reasoning abilities they still lack. This is function of the development of the nervous system and God is not unjust to hold someone accountable for something they don't understand. So, what does this passage mean?

The wicked are turning aside (away - from God) at the point which they are related to the matrix (reference to conception); they waver (vacillate) as soon as they be separated from their mother's body - both setting in organization lies.

The first portion of this verse makes sense when we consider that all of Adam's decedents exist in a corrupted world from the point of their conception. They are corrupted at conception because the Earthly contributors to their physical existence are both corrupted. The breath of life that God grants to every living being is not corrupted in and of it's-self; only the entity that it animates with life is corrupted. The two portions of that entity that God's breath of life makes alive (soul and body) spring forth corrupted because they spring forth into a fallen world.

"There is none righteous, no not one: there is none that understand there is none that seek after God:... for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" Rom 3:9+&23

"But the Scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe." Gal 3:22

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." Rom 5:12


JESUS IS THE ONLY WAY TO BE SAVED

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not (is disobedient) the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abides on him." Jn 3:36

"For the Father judges no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: that all men should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He that honors not the Son honors not the Father which hath sent him." Jn 5:22

"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" Acts 4:12

ALL THE BIBLE (AND ONLY THE BIBLE) IS THE WORD OF GOD

"Then said I, Lo, I come in the volume of the book it is written of me," Ps 40:7, Heb 10:7

"For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures; and that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the Scriptures:" 1 Cor 15:3

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" 2 Tim 3:16

"For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: hut holy men of old spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost" 2 Pet 1:21

"For I testify unto every man that hears the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plaques that are written in this book: and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life," Rev 22:18 &19

There are those who would contend that this warning is speaking only about the book of Revelation; although if we look closely at the language we see that isn't so. The literal Greek rendering is "the words of the prophecy of this scroll" The New Testament (including the book of Revelation) was written in letter form, so we know this isn't talking about the book of Revelation. The "prophecy of the scroll" I believe was the Old Testament. The Hebrew Scriptures testified to the reality of the Messiah. "God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book" This I believe is a reference to the book of Revelation and "Every man who hears the words of the prophecy of the scroll" I believe is a reference to the New Testament. One doesn't come without the other. They work in tandem.

THE NATURAL MAN HATES GOD

"And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake:" Mat. 10:22

"For every one that does evil hates the light, either cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." Jon 3:20

"The world cannot hate you; but me it hates, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil" Jon 7:7

"If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own; but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hates you." Jon 15:18

"I have given them thy word: and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as 1 am not of the world." Jon 1 7:14

"And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endures to the end shall be saved" Matt 10:22, Mk 13:13, Lk 21:17

"Than shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake" Matt 24:9
 
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TedT

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Already talked about this. Angels are not part of the redemption plan. Jesus did not take on the nature of angels, nor did he pay for the sin of disobedient angels.

Oh? Your proof? You write as if you believe that angel refers to a type of being or a race of being rather than a job description. A person refers to those who were created in the image of GOD able to be a proper bride for HIM . If these holy and elect angels are not a part of the redemption plan, it is because they never sinned and needed no redemption !!! not because they are some alien race or inferior creation! The only sins NOT covered by His death are the unforgivable sins in the fall of the Satanic demons, not the ordinary sins that are not unto death, 1 John 5:17.
 
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The Righterzpen

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Oh? Your proof? You write as if you believe that angel refers to a type of being or a race of being rather than a job description. A person refers to those who were created in the image of GOD able to be a proper bride for HIM . If these holy and elect angels are not a part of the redemption plan, it is because they never sinned and needed no redemption !!! not because they are some alien race or inferior creation! The only sins NOT covered by His death are the unforgivable sins in the fall of the Satanic demons, not the ordinary sins that are not unto death, 1 John 5:17.

Hebrews 2:16
 
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TedT

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JESUS DIED FOR ONLY THE ELECT
"for he shall save his people from their sin" Mt 1:21

Beside the fact that these verses provide no support for your contentions, this reference immediately denies your assumptions since they contradict the fact that some angels are elect:
1 Timothy 5:21 I charge thee before GOD and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the ELECT angels.
Since there are ELECT angels, then Christ died for them as His people also according to the verse you quoted, if they needed to be saved from any sin and had not sinned the unforgivable sin of Satan and his angels.

1 Timothy 5:21
also implies the fallen angels are non-elect demons ie the people of the evil one, the tares, sown into the world by the devil. IF angels can choose to sin and become demons, they can also choose to be holy and work for GOD without grace or redemption...angel being a job description, NOT a race or type of being.[/QUOTE]
 
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Jesus is YHWH

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You want more Scripture; other than what was already posted; OK! Here ya go! LOL

Happy reading!

Basics of Salvation
(these aspects of Godliness are given to a person by God and do not originate with any individual's natural inclinations)

Numbers given to words are from the Strong's Concordance
(O.T.) - Old Testament, (O.S.C.) - only saved can,
(N.T.) ~ New Testament
(S.R.W.) ~ same root word, (T.) - translated as

BELIEF - (S.R.W. as faith) (NT) 1 Peter 1:21
BORN OF THE LIGHT - John 1:4 John 1:12-13
CHOSEN - (T. choose) John 15:16
FAITH - 1 Samuel 26:23, Romans 12:3, Galatians 2:16-20, Galatians 3:2, Galatians 3:5 Galatians 3:22, Ephesians 3:12, Philippians 3:9, Colossians 2:12, Jude 3, 1 Thessalonians 1:3 (faith is a work) 2 Thessalonians 1:11
FEAR OF GOD - Psalm 130:4, Psalm 34:11, Malachi 3:5, Malachi 2:5, Jeremiah 32: 40, (O.S.C.) Jeremiah 44:10, Romans 3:10-18
FORGIVENESS - 2 Corinthians 2:7-10, Mark 2:7, Luke 5:21
FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT - Proverbs 8:19
GENEROSITY- (T. caring) 2 Corinthians 8:16
GENTLENESS - 2 Corinthians 10:1, Psalms 18:35
GODLY - 2 Peter 1:3
HEALING - Psalm 147:3, Malachi 4:2, Exodus 15:26,
Isaiah 61:1 (spiritual healing)
HONESTY - Matthew 7:17, Luke 8:19, (not in O.T.) (S.R.W. as goodness)
HUMILITY - Deuteronomy 8:2-3, Deuteronomy 8:16, 2 Chronicles 2:21, Isaiah 2:7+, Isaiah 5:13
JOY - Romans 15:13, Psalm 16:11, Psalm 126:5, Ecclesiastes 2: 26, Ezekiel 6:22
LONG-SUFFERING - (S.R.W. Patients) Galatians 5:22
MEEKNESS- Zep 2:3, 2 Cor 10:1
NOT WALKING AFTER THE FLESH - Ephesians 2:5
OBEDIENCE - I John 5:1-3, Romans 5:19, Romans 6:16, Ephesians 2:10
PATIENTS - Romans 15:4-5, Colossians10-12, Revelation 1:9
PEACE - Philippians 7, Philippians 9, 2 Thessalonians 3:16, John 14:26, John 16:3
PRAISE - Isaiah 38:17+, Isaiah 61:11-13, (O.S.C.) Proverbs 28:4, Psalm 145:10, Psalm 115:17
PRAYER - Romans 8:15, Romans 8:26-27, Romans 8:34 & 26, Hebrews 7:5
QUICKENED - Ephesians 2:1, Ephesians 2:5, Psalm 80:18, John 5:21, John 6:63
REPENTANCE - Romans 2:4, Acts 5:31, Jeremiah 31:17-19
RIGHTEOUSNESS - 2 Peter 1:1, 2 Corinthians 9:9-10
SALVATION - Romans 6:23
TEMPERANCE - Galatians 5:22
(definition found in 1 Corinthians 7:9)
THANKSGIVING - Hebrews 13:5, I Corinthians 14:16, 2 Corinthians 9:9-11, (O.S.C.) Jeremiah 30:18-19, Isaiah 51:3
TRUST - Psalm 22:9
TRUTH - John 1:17
TURNING - Psalm 85:4, Jeremiah 31:18
WILL - Matthew 8:2-3, I Corinthians 1:1, 1 Corinthians 11:27, Luke 10:22, John 5:21, John 6:37, Romans 9:16-18, Philippians 2:13, I Corinthians 1:1, Jeremiah 30:21-22
WISDOM - Proverbs 2:6, Proverbs 8: 14, Proverbs 14: 6,
(definition of Proverbs 8:14), Proverbs 9:10
WORKS - Ephesians 2:10, 2 Timothy 4:18, Hebrews 13:21, Hebrews 4:10, Revelation 15:3,
(definition of works - Romans 9:15), John 1:12-13, Titus 3:5
WORSHIP - Revelation 3:9, Acts 17:24-26, (O.S.C.) John 4:23-24

HELL - (being defined here as the condition of being under the wrath of God)

ETERNAL - Mark 9:43, Revelation 14:10-11, 20:10, Psalm 9:5, Psalm 6:2.

JESUS ENDURED WRATH - Acts 2:27-31, Psalm 16:10
"lowest hell" - Psalm 86:13
"lowest pit" - Psalm 88:6-7 Psalm 88:14-15
"pit" = wrath of God - Revelation 20:10
"cup" = wrath of God - Psalm 75:8, Revelation 14:8-10
Jesus had the cup - Matthew 26:39
"counted as a transgressor" - Psalm 88:4, Mark 15:28, Isaiah 53:12
"wine press" = wrath of God Jesus tread it alone - Isaiah 53:3, Revelation 19:15

"Low I come in the volume of the book it is written of me to do thy will, 0 God" Ps 40: 68, Hebrews 10:7

GOD IS SOVEREIGN IN SALVATION

Ezekiel 36 & 36, John 11, Romans 9:14+, Jeremiah 18, Jonah, Numbers 23 (Balaam), Acts 9

JESUS DIED FOR ONLY THE ELECT

"for he shall save his people from their sin" Mt 1:21

"For many are called, but few are chosen." (elect 1588) Mt 22: 14, 20: 16

"And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, ... " Mt. 24:31 (it's not national Israel) - Revelation 7:4-15 (144 thou.)

"Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord; and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance." Ps 33: 12

"Blessed is the man whom thou chooses, and causest to approach unto thee that he may dwell in thy courts:" Ps 65:4

"For he remembered his holy promise, and Abraham his servant, and he brought forth his people with joy, and his chosen with gladness." Ps 105:42 + (Rom 9:6)

"For the Lord hath chosen Jacob unto himself, and Israel for his peculiar treasure" Ps 135:4

"But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham" Is 41:8

"Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction." Is 48:10

"In whom we also have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will," Eph 1:11

"And except that the Lord had shortened these days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. " (elect 1586) Mk 13:20

"I know whom I have chosen ... " (elect 1586) Jn 13:17

"Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, .. " (elect 1586) Jn 15:16
What’s the source for this cut n paste
 
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The Righterzpen

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@TedT

The entities created in the first day that are not carbon based life forms that Scripture calls "angels" are not human.

Jesus did not take on the nature of angels!
Hebrews 2:16

The word "angel" in Scripture actually means "messenger". And sometimes it's referring to a human messenger. For example Genesis 32:3. "Jacob sent a messenger to Esau". That word is also translated "angel". Matter of fact, it's translated "angel" more than it's translated "messenger".

Now did Jacob send a non-material bodied entity to give a message to Esau? Nooooo.... more likely he sent a human being.

I know you REALLY want to believe this doctrine you've made up; but you have no Scriptural support for it.

John 5:17 that you quoted; "...sin not unto death". There's only one other reference that uses that language in Scripture. It's Deuteronomy 22:26. And that passage states that victims of sexual assault have committed no sin worthy of death.

And "sin not unto death" being someone who is the victim of someone else's sin, does fit the context of John 5:16-17. That's why verse 17 says that "all unrighteousness is sin; but there is a sin not unto death." Which comparing that to Deuteronomy 22:26; crime victims having to contend with the consequences of someone else's sin are not responsible for the crime committed against them; despite that in some contexts, they may have had choices open to them that would have avoided them being in "the wrong place at the wrong time" to begin with.
 
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The Righterzpen

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...which must then include the ELECT angels.

Elect angels never fell. So thus they would not need God's mercy anyways. Apparently what that verse means is that because they are elect is why they didn't fall.

Why do you keep ignoring Hebrews 2:16?
 
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The Righterzpen

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TedT

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Hebrews 2:16
HE did not give help to anyone who was still in spirit form but only to those spirits who used to be called angels but who are now men since they were sown into the world of mankind, Matt 13:36-39. Spirits without bodies are called angels even after their fall (ie, they were still working for their father Satan): Matt 25:41 Then also He will say to those on the left, 'Depart from Me, those being cursed, into the eternal fire, having been prepared for the devil and his angels. ...angels who upon being sown into the world are now men, people, called goats: Matt 25:31 When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate the PEOPLE one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will place the sheep on His right and the goats on His left.
PEOPLE: S1484. ethnos:
a race, people, nation; the nations, heathen world, Gentiles.

IF the people called goats are Satanic angels having sinned the unforgivable sin, who are the PEOPLE on the right called sheep if not elect angels who went astray into sin not unto death, 1 Peter 2:25 For you were like sheep going astray, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls. that is, the sinful people of the kingdom sown into the world by the Son of Man, Matt 13:36-39?
 
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TedT

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Elect angels never fell. So thus they would not need God's mercy anyways. Apparently what that verse means is that because they are elect is why they didn't fall.
Glad to see you catching up but now please consider:
though some elect angels never fell, some elect angels did fall and were sown into the word of man by the Son of Man and are now called the sinful good seed or the sheep gone astray into sin.

IF election means that the elect person cannot fall, then elect humans cannot fall either since they were supposedly elected before their creation...??? Or is GOD not just after all?
 
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The Righterzpen

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Glad to see you catching up but now please consider:
though some elect angels never fell, some elect angels did fall and were sown into the word of man by the Son of Man and are now called the sinful good seed or the sheep gone astray into sin.

IF election means that the elect person cannot fall, then elect humans cannot fall either since they were supposedly elected before their creation...??? Or is GOD not just after all?

This belief of yours is not found in Scripture!

Human souls do not pre-exist their own creation as carbon based flesh beings. I'd already quoted to you that God breathed into Adam and "he became a living soul". It does not say "God breathed into Adam and instilled in him an angelic being God had already pre-created." The text does not say that. Your doctrine is heresy!

And yes, those who are elect of God are still subject to their fallen nature and do commit sin!

1 Corinthians 6:9-11

You seem to want to believe that your personal sin is not worthy of condemnation.

Romans 1:20-22
 
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The Righterzpen

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HE did not give help to anyone who was still in spirit form but only to those spirits who used to be called angels but who are now men since they were sown into the world of mankind, Matt 13:36-39. Spirits without bodies are called angels even after their fall (ie, they were still working for their father Satan): Matt 25:41 Then also He will say to those on the left, 'Depart from Me, those being cursed, into the eternal fire, having been prepared for the devil and his angels. ...angels who upon being sown into the world are now men, people, called goats: Matt 25:31 When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate the PEOPLE one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will place the sheep on His right and the goats on His left.
PEOPLE: S1484. ethnos:
a race, people, nation; the nations, heathen world, Gentiles.

IF the people called goats are Satanic angels having sinned the unforgivable sin, who are the PEOPLE on the right called sheep if not elect angels who went astray into sin not unto death, 1 Peter 2:25 For you were like sheep going astray, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls. that is, the sinful people of the kingdom sown into the world by the Son of Man, Matt 13:36-39?

Matthew 25 is talking about the final resurrection and Judgement Day.

Angels do not become humans.

I don't know where you got this doctrine from; but it's heresy. And no Scripture verse you post out of context is going to convince me otherwise. For as much as you seem to crave my approval!
 
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TedT

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Human souls do not pre-exist their own creation as carbon based flesh beings.
Nothing pre-exists it own creation; that is just silly.

Your doctrine is heresy!
So is yours from a Catholic pov.

Anyway, I think it is in fact more heterodox than heretical.

You seem to want to believe that your personal sin is not worthy of condemnation.

Why make things up about me? Please stop...

John 3:18.
 
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TedT

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And no Scripture verse you post out of context is going to convince me otherwise. For as much as you seem to crave my approval!

Woah - the hubris! I don't care what you think. I make my apologies for folk to consider but I'm not vested in you at all. Keeping up the insults will get you put on ignore... that's how little I crave anything from you. You are just a springboard for my interpretation of this reality that is so far described by so many blasphemes...

This belief of yours is not found in Scripture!

All this means is that you have never seen PCE mentioned or taught before and so do not have any idea how the verses that teach it are interpreted.

Most reject the plain face value of the many verses (over 3 dozen) that can be interpreted as support for PCE theology with NO INJUSTICE to their words because most folk can't even see the possibility, so blinkered are they by 4000 years of, ummm, orthodoxy.

When you find one verse that even hints that our pre-conception existence is impossible as contrary to any verse whatsoever...then blow your trumpet!
 
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TedT

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Matthew 25 is talking about the final resurrection and Judgement Day.
So what?? It does not matter what day is being talked about...it still obviously implies that Satan's angels are the same people as are called the goats, the pagan nations.
 
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Jesus is YHWH

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Beside the fact that these verses provide no support for your contentions, this reference immediately denies your assumptions since they contradict the fact that some angels are elect:
1 Timothy 5:21 I charge thee before GOD and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the ELECT angels.
Since there are ELECT angels, then Christ died for them as His people also according to the verse you quoted, if they needed to be saved from any sin and had not sinned the unforgivable sin of Satan and his angels.

1 Timothy 5:21
also implies the fallen angels are non-elect demons ie the people of the evil one, the tares, sown into the world by the devil. IF angels can choose to sin and become demons, they can also choose to be holy and work for GOD without grace or redemption...angel being a job description, NOT a race or type of being.
judas was chosen, drawn, elect etc to be Jesus disciple. So much for election .

judas and those in Hebrews 6:4-8 destroy tulip and calvinism.
 
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The Righterzpen

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Woah - the hubris! I don't care what you think. I make my apologies for folk to consider but I'm not vested in you at all. Keeping up the insults will get you put on ignore... that's how little I crave anything from you. You are just a springboard for my interpretation of this reality that is so far described by so many blasphemes...

:preach:

So then.... why is it that you have such a need to convince me of these things? Remember, you are the one who started this thread and quoted me to start this thread. (You didn't quote anyone else!) So what is it about me or my theological position that you have this burning desire to convince me of your doctrine?

If you don't care what I think; than why invite me to this thread?

I'm sure you get a lot of rejection for this belief of yours. And you're hoping for just one person to proselytize!
 
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The Righterzpen

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judas was chosen, drawn, elect etc to be Jesus disciple. So much for election .

judas and those in Hebrews 6:4-8 destroy tulip and calvinism.

Reconcile Hebrews 6:4-8 with John 6:38-40

Hebrews 6: (King James)
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Now John 6:38-40:
Is Jesus a liar?
 
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Jesus is YHWH

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Reconcile Hebrews 6:4-8 with John 6:38-40

Hebrews 6: (King James)
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Now John 6:38-40:
Is Jesus a liar?
was judas his disciple ?

next
 
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