PCE and Double Predestination...

[TedT]

Those who were predestine to election were elect from before the foundation of the world. (Ephesians 1:4) So thus, no one by their own actions have caused their own election.

Thus speaketh orthodoxy but I disagree: Pre-Conception Existence theology (PCE) is solidly Bible based (though highly unpopular) and is a far more logical understanding of GOD's Divine attributes working in HIS creation than all the other created on earth biased opinions which lead to inevitable blasphemy and illogic.

I quote few verses here so you don't think I'm a complete lunatic, totally divorced from scripture. I don't dump every verse I can find, (some 3 dozen), so please understand this is just an intro so to speak. I also hope you understand that I don't claim these are PROOF verses that can't be argued. It is obvious that these verses have had their orthodox interpretations for centuries of which I am well aware. But they do contain alternative interpretations which should be answered as to how they fail if they are rejected as pce supports.

It is enough that others come to realize that the actual face value of the words in each verse CAN BE USED WITHOUT DISTORTION to promote PCE and in some cases are more true to the meaning of the words than orthodoxy accepts.

I also repeat my desire for someone to find me a verse which claims or even hints that our pre-earth existence is impossible… After 12 years of asking, no one has found one yet.

Job 38:7 ALL the Sons of GOD were there and saw the creation of the physical universe and sang HIS praise! Romans 1:18-20 so no one has an excuse.

Colossians 1:23 tells us GOD proclaimed (a past and finished act) the gospel to every creature under heaven (ie, ever created?) which contradicts the idea that some new people are being created.

This precipitated the faith decisions that led to the election of some to salvation and heaven and the reprobation of others to hell for their choice to become eternally sinful in HIS sight.

SO, when did human life begin?
I contend that HUMAN life, not all created life, began with Adam and then Eve being sown, moved, into the world from Sheol as per Matthew 13:36-39, and then all other sinners being sown (not created, the verse tells us the devil sows also) into this world by their conception as human as GOD sees fit. Only sinners are sown into the earth. If you meet a person you meet someone who chose to be sinful in GOD's sight by their free will, NOT by GOD's will!

Why from Sheol? The wicked who are condemned already RETURN (the actual word used), to Sheol upon their death, Psalms 9:17, giving us the hint.

And so to that old stand by:
Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly, I knew thee.
If the Scripture said, I knew thee when you were a little child, we would say that Jeremiah existed at that time. If it said, I knew thee when you were in the womb, we would interpret it as saying that Jeremiah existed at that time. Why then, when the time moves back before the womb, does "I know thee" mean something else, to wit: “I knew about thee"? In the natural use of the word “knew", it is impossible to know someone before they exist, no matter how much you know about them.

I know that these verses have had other interpretations for the last 4,000 years but I hope you will notice that they can all be used to support, if not prove, PCE at face value without doing any impairment or injury to the meaning of the actual words themselves, that is, from the words used we can easily see PCE as a possibility which then should be considered.

 

[Halbhh]

Extremely needed and helpful to all believers that hope to endure and enter heaven is to listen to Christ.

The Sermon on the Mount -- Matthew, chapters 5-7.

We want to hear the actual face value of the words in each verse.

For us believers. Christ said plainly and clearly in the actual face value of the words, if you read each verse, that not all will make it, and it will be whether or not we choose to do what He said we must do:

Matthew 7 NIV

We are indeed predestined though! It is predestined that for all who will believe on Christ in real faith (which does lead to listening to Him), that He will save them. But He gives us not only choice in whether to listen, but also help when we do listen and begin to walk as He said to walk. He helps us.

But, as He said in the Sermon on the Mount: Matthew 7 NIV

 

[The Righterzpen]

Thus speaketh orthodoxy but I disagree: Pre-Conception Existence theology (PCE) is solidly Bible based (though highly unpopular) and is a far more logical understanding of GOD's Divine attributes working in HIS creation than all the other created on earth biased opinions which lead to inevitable blasphemy and illogic.

I quote few verses here so you don't think I'm a complete lunatic, totally divorced from scripture. I don't dump every verse I can find, (some 3 dozen), so please understand this is just an intro so to speak. I also hope you understand that I don't claim these are PROOF verses that can't be argued. It is obvious that these verses have had their orthodox interpretations for centuries of which I am well aware. But they do contain alternative interpretations which should be answered as to how they fail if they are rejected as pce supports.

It is enough that others come to realize that the actual face value of the words in each verse CAN BE USED WITHOUT DISTORTION to promote PCE and in some cases are more true to the meaning of the words than orthodoxy accepts.

I also repeat my desire for someone to find me a verse which claims or even hints that our pre-earth existence is impossible… After 12 years of asking, no one has found one yet.

Job 38:7 ALL the Sons of GOD were there and saw the creation of the physical universe and sang HIS praise! Romans 1:18-20 so no one has an excuse.

Colossians 1:23 tells us GOD proclaimed (a past and finished act) the gospel to every creature under heaven (ie, ever created?) which contradicts the idea that some new people are being created.

This precipitated the faith decisions that led to the election of some to salvation and heaven and the reprobation of others to hell for their choice to become eternally sinful in HIS sight.

SO, when did human life begin?
I contend that HUMAN life, not all created life, began with Adam and then Eve being sown, moved, into the world from Sheol as per Matthew 13:36-39, and then all other sinners being sown (not created, the verse tells us the devil sows also) into this world by their conception as human as GOD sees fit. Only sinners are sown into the earth. If you meet a person you meet someone who chose to be sinful in GOD's sight by their free will, NOT by GOD's will!

Why from Sheol? The wicked who are condemned already RETURN (the actual word used), to Sheol upon their death, Psalms 9:17, giving us the hint.

And so to that old stand by:
Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly, I knew thee.
If the Scripture said, I knew thee when you were a little child, we would say that Jeremiah existed at that time. If it said, I knew thee when you were in the womb, we would interpret it as saying that Jeremiah existed at that time. Why then, when the time moves back before the womb, does "I know thee" mean something else, to wit: “I knew about thee"? In the natural use of the word “knew", it is impossible to know someone before they exist, no matter how much you know about them.

I know that these verses have had other interpretations for the last 4,000 years but I hope you will notice that they can all be used to support, if not prove, PCE at face value without doing any impairment or injury to the meaning of the actual words themselves, that is, from the words used we can easily see PCE as a possibility which then should be considered.

Lots of problems with this theory but:
Problem most obvious is that all humanity are sinners. There is no special class of "righteous of God" as opposed to "seed of Satan". "Seed of Satan" doctrine came out of the Talmud. Jews who follow the Talmud believe they are all the descendants of Adam and all the gentiles are the descendants of Satan. Thus all the gentiles were put on earth to "serve Jews" and are sub human.

This doctrine is just another form of racism basically.

All humanity are created in the image of the One and Only God and are descendants of Adam.

Satan does not have carbon based capacity and angels can not reproduce. God is the author of all life. He alone controls the "breath of life". Satan has no control over that. He can not create life. Matter of fact, the entire reproductive capacity of the planet can not create life unless God grants the breath of life for an organism to be "conceived".

Job 38:7 That verse means the angelic host was created before humanity was. That's born out in other parts of Scripture. Apparently angels were created on the first day. Which makes sense because Lucifer was the "covering cherub". What was he covering? He was covering the "darkness" that was "on the face of the deep". And actually, when "the Spirit of God moved upon the waters"; the action of the Spirit of God entering into the "without form and void" cosmos to create life, was the creation of water. Water is the foundational element of life. Thus the material component of "carbon based life" is necessary to call it "life". The material aspect of life defines life, because the breath of life makes life alive.

That term "sons of God" (referencing angels) is used in other parts of Scripture. The Nephilim passage references "sons of God" (rather god - meaning Satan post fall) and "daughters of men". But since demons do not have the capacity to create life; the surrogate needed for conception to happen was a human father. Which also God had to grant the breath of life in order for the offspring to "come to life".

Both Jesus and John the Baptist called certain pharisees "...of your father the devil..."; yet clearly they were still carbon based biological men.

And clearly we know from Genesis 2:7 that souls did not exist prior to the creation of the body because God breathed into Adam's nostrils and "he became a living soul". The creation of life comes from the imparting of the breath of life, and the imparting of the breath of life makes one "a living soul".

So thus all other humans conceived, become a living soul at the granting of the breath of life from God. So in that context, technically everything that's a life form has a "soul". Yet an animal or plant "soul" is not the same as a human soul.

Now you are taking Romans 1:18-20 out of context. The reason that they are "without excuse" is because they have the witness of creation. The passage itself says that. And since they can not exist without the breath of life, the "witness of creation" was not that they witnessed it being created. That's impossible because the cosmos itself existed before life was introduced into it.

That phrase "without excuse" though has a "flip side" to it. To those who have been atoned for, who never received the written testimony of Scripture they "have not been left without a witness". Creation is that witness; as well as being created in the image of God, they also have a conscience. This is why "those who knew not the law, yet did the things written in the law are a law unto themselves".

Colossians 1:23 ties into Revelation 13:8. Jesus was the "lamb slain from the foundation of the world". Now how the atonement is accomplished both within and without created time; we have a hard time wrapping our heads around because we are not omniscient. God as an eternal entity, obviously bears the capacity to inject Himself into any point in history.

Matthew 13:36-39 Here's a perfect example of why we are told to compare Scripture with Scripture because when you don't; you fall of the rails into silly heresies.

Luke 8 gives another parable of "seed". It defines "the seed" as the word of God. Go back to Matthew 13 a minute; the "seed" are the sons of the Kingdom. And in that passage; Jesus states that he has "sown" them. How did he do that? "Through the proclamation of the redemption plan."

In the context of the entire Bible, the "seed" is the spoken word because Jesus is the "material world" word ("seed"). He is a carbon based life form, of the "seed of Eve". And this is why God "created" the first Adam and "incarnated" the last Adam.

The first command given to all life after the creation of Eve was to "be fruitful and multiply". That was necessary because of the fall. So thus on account of the necessity for all "living souls" to have a component of their existence that involved a material body; life was created with the capacity to reproduce.

Now what happens to the "seed" that is Christ? He goes "into the ground", because the last enemy to be overcome was death. Jesus did not biologically reproduce; so the biological component of his existence remained in him thus his body is the seed that goes into the ground, just like his body is the "temple" that is destroyed.

So how does Christ "sow" the "sons of the kingdom"? In the context of "sowing" being "seed" that "is fruitful and multiplies" to create life; the sons of the kingdom are sown by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The book of Daniel actually calls Pentecost "the consummation". Jesus consummated His relationship to the believer through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. If he'd sowed his seed in the flesh; that would not have accomplished redemption. All of Jesus's material offspring would have also been "God incarnate" which would have been pointless because God does not have to prove to Himself that He can obey His own law.

Which contrast this now to Jeremiah 1:5; "before I formed you in the belly, I knew you? Adam knew his wife and she conceived a son... Contrast this to "be gone from me you workers of iniquity; I never knew you." God who's Holy Spirit cleaves to a human entity, as a result of salvation; obviously can know that human entity outside of time, in eternity before time ever began. Thus "Jesus the lamb slain from the foundation of the world". He doesn't "know" those He knows because He created them before the foundation of the world. He knows them because He's omnipresent!

Psalm 9:17 - Again you've neglected context. Verse 16; "the wicked is snared in the work of his own hands". What are the "works of his own hands"? What is he trying to escape that 'the works of his own hands" ensnare him. The answer is the context of verse 17. He's "turned back to hell" by being snared in the works of his own hands; which he is devising and scheming and "working' to try and escape hell.

Again; man is not the author of his own election.

 

[TedT]

Problem most obvious is that all humanity are sinners.

OOOPS, you missed the line where I contend that: Only sinners are sown into the earth, by which I of course mean conceived as human. All that PCE does for Christian theology is to take the cause of any and all sinfulness totally away for any link to GOD's will (except in that HE gave us a free will and a free will environment to make choices within) and to put the cause of all sinfulness fully and solely upon each individual becoming sinful by their own personal free will decision to rebel against YHWH.

Some people do think this is a problem but I find the problem to be in the blasphemy that people are sinners by being created inheriting Adam's sin by GOD's will, not by any choice of their own yet suffer and die as if truly guilty.

 

[The Righterzpen]

OOOPS, you missed the line where I contend that: Only sinners are sown into the earth, by which I of course mean conceived as human. All that PCE does for Christian theology is to take the cause of any and all sinfulness totally away for any link to GOD's will (except in that HE gave us a free will and a free will environment to make choices within) and to put the cause of all sinfulness fully and solely upon each individual becoming sinful by their own personal free will decision to rebel against YHWH.

Some people do think this is a problem but I find the problem to be in the blasphemy that people are sinners by being created inheriting Adam's sin by GOD's will, not by any choice of their own yet suffer and die as if truly guilty.

Ooopse; you missed the lines in Scripture that say:

The fact that "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23) can not be divorced by how God's will plays out in this current cosmos. The fact that there is a hell and a Lake of Fire, is because of the atonement. If the incarnation had never happened; there'd be no need for eternal punishment for sin. Annihilation would suffice. Which from the creative standpoint of a loving God would be pointless. Why create a universe with the sole intent to destroy it? That is not a demonstration of love.

The evidence that "all have sinned' is apparent in that "death passes upon all men; for all have sinned". (Romans 5:12)

No prodigy of Adam have inherited his personal sin; we all have inherited his fallen nature, which manifests itself in our own decisions to sin. Thus our wills are not free. We are encumbered by our fallen nature and we are encumbered by our own sin!

You also ignore the fact that material life forms do not exist prior to their material creation. This is why "(when) God breathed into Adam; he became a living soul". Adam's soul did not exist until God granted the flesh the breath of life.

The creation of the soul is part of the creation of life. The soul does not pre-exist the flesh.

Although this principle also stands true for angels. They can not exist before they are created. That's illogical.

 

[TedT]

All humanity are created in the image of the One and Only God and are descendants of Adam.

Does GOD's image then include the disgrace and corruption of sin? Eccl.7:29 "Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions..." When were you created upright but then went astray into many sins?

1 Peter 2:25 For "you were like sheep going astray,” but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls. When did you become His sheep and then go astray into sin to only return to your Shepherd at your conversion and repentance??? A sheep is in His image, right?, so a sheep gone astray is only a degraded image of Him, sinful and corrupt.

There is no way the perfect GOD would or even could create HIS potential Bride as degraded and unable to fulfill HIS purpose in their creation:
Isaiah 43:7, 21
7 "whom I created for my glory"
21 the people I formed for myself that they may proclaim my praise.
...created in sin means to be created unable to fulfill HIS purpose of glorifying HIM, contrary to the import of this verse.

Angels are people in the Image of GOD:
In the resurrection, man will be as the angels of God. Matt 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. In the resurrection, man is restored to the image of God in which he was created. The angels of God must, therefore, bear the image of God.

The image of GOD cannot contain sin therefore for man to be a sinner, the image must be broken, corrupt. In the resurrection we will be restored to the full image of GOD like the angels as this verse hints, who therefore must also be in HIS image. When did they receive the image of God unless it was in their creation?

The image of GOD? I think it means things like personhood that is, self awareness, intelligence, emotional ability, curiosity and creativity and the ability to make true free will decisions. Therefore any being that fits this description fits the image of GOD... It also means they are suitable as marriage partners for our GOD, part of those who make up HIS Bride who were elected to be conformed to HIS Son and to heaven.

Not only does the ability to worship, to praise, to be elect and to be holy imply personhood, they also imply they have a free will and if you combine free will with election of some and the fall of others, you get angels going through an Adam like choice with some choosing to be holy and Satan and his crew choosing that which made them forever evil in HIS sight.

Pre-Conception Existence theology contends that EVERY PERSON was created in the image of GOD, that is, able to be HIS Bride. None were created with HIM knowing they would end in hell or as sinful, needing grace to become able to be HIS Bride.

But as true innocents we only had the potential for perfection, that is, we had to choose by our free will to accept GOD and HIS marriage for us in heaven to fulfill our potential to become perfect in righteousness. The fall of the elect into sin* delayed the fulfillment of their potential by making it impossible to fulfill without grace. Our redemption is a restoration to the potential and the new creation is the fully realized fulfillment in us of HIS purpose for our creation.
*The fall of the reprobate into demonism made their inclusion in the heavenly marriage to be eternally impossible so they were condemned on the spot to the outer darkness.

 

[TedT]

Thus all the gentiles were put on earth to "serve Jews" and are sub human.

This doctrine is just another form of racism basically.

Only in your distorted interpretation...

 

[The Righterzpen]

Does GOD's image then include the disgrace and corruption of sin? Eccl.7:29 "Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions..." When were you created upright but then went astray into many sins?

I was created upright in Adam; for I am one of his descendants.

1 Peter 2:25 For "you were like sheep going astray,” but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls. When did you become His sheep and then go astray into sin to only return to your Shepherd at your conversion and repentance??? A sheep is in His image, right?, so a sheep gone astray is only a degraded image of Him, sinful and corrupt.

The condemned never cease to be in God's image either; this is why God can rightfully demand of them retribution for their sin.

Personally, in linear time; I went astray at the first sin I committed. I repented at the point in linear time at the time God appointed as my moment of regeneration. The entity that brought about that regeneration was the Holy Spirit.

There is no way the perfect GOD would or even could create HIS potential Bride as degraded and unable to fulfill HIS purpose in their creation:
Isaiah 43:7, 21
7 "whom I created for my glory"
21 the people I formed for myself that they may proclaim my praise.
...created in sin means to be created unable to fulfill HIS purpose of glorifying HIM, contrary to the import of this verse.

Are sinners redeemable?

What is of greater demonstration of God's love; IE brings glory to God? To create an entity that never sins; or to redeem one who is not worthy of His redeeming them?

Angels are people in the Image of GOD:

Nowhere in Scripture does it say angels are created in God's image.

Scripture is very specific: "Let us make MAN in our image...." (Genesis 1:26-27)

In the resurrection, man will be as the angels of God. Matt 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. In the resurrection, man is restored to the image of God in which he was created. The angels of God must, therefore, bear the image of God.

Again here, you take this passage out of context. What is the subject of the conversation that Jesus gives this response? The question is to whether or not there is marriage in the new heavens and new earth. The answer is "no"; angels don't marry or are given in marriage. So in the resurrection neither do humans marry or are given in marriage.

Now compare this to Luke 20:34-36. Jesus states that marriage is for the children of this world, because in the resurrection there is no death. From a worldly material standpoint; the byproduct of marriage is reproduction. Reproduction is necessary because of death. The eternal point of reproduction is that believers are commonly born to other believers. "I shall be God to you and your children."

The image of GOD? I think it means things like personhood that is, self awareness, intelligence, emotional ability, curiosity and creativity and the ability to make true free will decisions. Therefore any being that fits this description fits the image of GOD... It also means they are suitable as marriage partners for our GOD, part of those who make up HIS Bride who were elected to be conformed to HIS Son and to heaven.

What is the image of God? The image of God means that a human being is redeemable and understands their moral accountability to God for their sin.

Angels are not part of the redemption plan. Jesus did not die for angels. Jesus did not take on the nature of angels; though angels are sentient entities and know they will be condemned if they transgress. And what's different about angels is that they lose the ability to make morally right choices once they do transgress. This is why Scripture states that Satan is a liar and a murder from the beginning and there is "no truth in him". (John 8:44)

Men do not lose that ability. That is why humans "earn wages" for their sin. Two condemned individuals do not earn the same punishment for their sin because the punishment they receive is fitted to the level of sin they committed. The level of sin they committed was a matter of personal choice. That still is not "free will" though, because a will that is truly free is not encumbered by the fallen nature, or the sin that has already been committed.

All life possess some amount of "self awareness". "The creature groans and travails awaiting the revelation of the sons of God". And certainly animals who have the cerebral capacity to make decisions demonstrate intelligence, emotional ability, curiosity and creativity. If this was not the case, animals would not have the ability to learn.

Animals can be behaviorally trained by humans. And the amount of trainability depends on the cognitive capacity of the creature. This is why we have service dogs and not service alligators! Animals learn from each other. Even insects. Bees communicate to other bees in their hive (via what's called "waggle dance") where to find abundance of pollen sources. Thus people who have large flower gardens usually have a lot of bees. (Every summer my yard is "the bumble bee hang out". I have lots of flowering plants.)

Animals also learn how to use tools. Monkeys have learned from each other how to catch ants to eat by sticking blades of grass into ant hills.

Small city dwelling birds in Japan have developed a complex and interesting way of utilizing a certain kind of tree nut for food. Yet because the birds beaks are not strong enough to crack the nuts; this is what they do. They get the nuts from the trees and they sit by traffic lights. They throw the nuts in the road and wait for the traffic lights. When the light turn green, the cars run over the nuts and crack them open for the birds. The birds know that when the lights turn red, they can harvest the nuts without the cars running them over. And other birds will actually keep watch of the traffic going the other way, so when the traffic light turns yellow; they squawk a warning to the birds collecting the nuts in the road that the light is about to turn green, so those birds can fly away before the cars begin to move. Now, no one trained these birds to do this. They demonstrate ingenuity, intelligence and the fact that they are watching out for each other so they don't get killed. They developed this system because the other food sources they were using began to deplete enough to not be able to sustain their population numbers. They knew these seeds were edible by watching birds who had large enough beaks to crack the nuts eat them.

Other mammals are also capable of displaying behavior that we associate with moral concepts like gratitude and care for those who are not their own. There are plenty of examples of animals who have cared for infants of offspring that were not the same species. (Geese who've hatched and cared for duck eggs.) Friendships between domesticated pigs and dogs; cows and horses etc. Wild animals who are obviously happy to see the care givers that "raised" them, even years after they'd been placed in a wild life preserve. Dolphins who've saved the lives of people who were in danger of drowning. Even dolphins who've protected divers from shark attacks.

Testimony to the fact that God created an incredible amount of intelligent life on this planet!

Which reinforces my point that "the image of God" has nothing to do with emotions or intelligence. Being created in God's image involves the ability to be redeemed and the ability to understand one's accountability before God for their sin.

Pre-Conception Existence theology contends that EVERY PERSON was created in the image of GOD, that is, able to be HIS Bride. None were created with HIM knowing they would end in hell or as sinful, needing grace to become able to be HIS Bride.

This would mean that God lacks omniscience; which is one of the characteristics that makes God God.

But as true innocents we only had the potential for perfection, that is, we had to choose by our free will to accept GOD and HIS marriage for us in heaven to fulfill our potential to become perfect in righteousness. The fall of the elect into sin* delayed the fulfillment of their potential by making it impossible to fulfill without grace. Our redemption is a restoration to the potential and the new creation is the fully realized fulfillment in us of HIS purpose for our creation.
*The fall of the reprobate into demonism made their inclusion in the heavenly marriage to be eternally impossible so they were condemned on the spot to the outer darkness.

Issue #1 - The "fall of the reprobate into demonism" and "being condemned on the spot to outer darkness"; does not explain the presence of demons on this planet.

Where creatures reside who have the potential to be redeemed; by definition is not outer darkness, for only those who are paying for their sin are cast into outer darkness.

Issue #2 - Where redemption depends on man's action it's a works gospel.

Issue #3 - Let me humor you for a moment and assume your theory here is true. As your theory relates to your presence on this planet (evidenced by you communicating to me); the theory bears no relevance to you. Because you were "sown a human" you apparently are one of "the elect who went reprobate". And the evidence of this is that you have a mortal body that will die.

If you were an angel who'd appeared in human form to humans; you'd maintain the ability to "un-manifest" back into your angelic form. Clearly you can't do that.

Also, obviously you're not a "PCE" either because clearly you're on earth typing about this theory you have.

So even if it were true; (which it's not) it's of no relevance to you in your current circumstance. You're still a fallen sinner residing on planet earth!

 

[The Righterzpen]

Only in your distorted interpretation...

How else would you explain "seed of Adam" / "seed of satan" doctrine other than in a context of human racism? Because of the concept; it clearly delineates people who are "human" from ones who are not.

 

[Der Alte]

I only need one verse to falsify the unscriptural doctrine being espoused in this thread.

John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that He gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.​

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

I only need one verse to falsify the unscriptural doctrine being espoused in this thread.

John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that He gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.​

Its crazy how the most famous verse in scripture can be twisted into God loving some and not others.

 

[The Righterzpen]

Its crazy how the most famous verse in scripture can be twisted into God loving some and not others.

Romans 9:13

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Romans 9:13

The verse was John 3:16.

 

[The Righterzpen]

The verse was John 3:16.

Did you read Romans 9:13?

 

[TedT]

How else would you explain "seed of Adam" / "seed of satan" doctrine other than in a context of human racism?

i have never countenanced the seed theory in terms of PCE and your sinsitance I do is futile. Good day, sir.

 

[The Righterzpen]

i have never countenanced the seed theory in terms of PCE and your sinsitance I do is futile. Good day, sir.

Well maybe you should "countenance the seed theory in terms of PCE"; because what other outcome would there be; when followed to its logical end, the theory itself delineates a separation between "humans" and "non humans".

 

[Der Alte]

Romans 9:13

Really? Come on, do you actually think one out-of-context verse written by Paul supersedes the very words of Jesus, Himself? Jesus is my Lord and Savior, NOT Paul. If there is a seeming discrepancy between Jesus and any other person in the Bible it absolutely must be resolved in favor of Jesus. No ifs, ands, or buts.

I shouldn't have to do this but here is a hint. What did Esau do that was against God's will and when did God tell a prophet that He hated Esau?

 

[The Righterzpen]

Really? Come on, do you actually think one out-of-context verse written by Paul supersedes the very words of Jesus, Himself? Jesus is my Lord and Savior, NOT Paul. If there is a seeming discrepancy between Jesus and any other person in the Bible it absolutely must be resolved in favor of Jesus. No ifs, ands, or buts.

So anything Paul wrote is not Scripture; got ya!

So I suppose Malachi 1:2-3 is not Scripture either; because that's what Romans 9:13 is quoted from.

 

[Der Alte]

So anything Paul wrote is not Scripture; got ya!
So I suppose Malachi 1:2-3 is not Scripture either; because that's what it's quoted from.

Very unChristian disrespectful, conduct deliberately twisting my words trying to make it appear that I said something I did not say. Where did I ever say that anything in the Bible was not scripture? What I said was "If there is a seeming discrepancy between what Jesus said and [what] any other person in the Bible [said] it absolutely must be resolved in favor of Jesus. No ifs, ands, or buts. I brush the dust off of my feet.

 

[The Righterzpen]

Very unChristian disrespectful, conduct deliberately twisting my words trying to make it appear that I said something I did not say. Where did I ever say that anything in the Bible was not scripture? What I said was "If there is a seeming discrepancy between what Jesus said and [what] any other person in the Bible [said] it absolutely must be resolved in favor of Jesus. No ifs, ands, or buts. I brush the dust off of my feet.

"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof for correction for instruction in righteousness." 2 Timothy 3:16

"Low I come in the volume of the book it is written of me..." Psalm 40:7, Hebrews 10:7

If you think "words of Christ" give precedence over "words of Paul" you are mistaken because it's all "the Word of God"!

So if you don't understand how to reconcile those passages; maybe it would be wiser to get out a concordance and start digging to figure it out instead of "brushing the dust off your feet".