Paul's words are not confusing. They are wrong.

[DrFate]

Foon Nerfdahl posted this some time ago and I would like to review the statements in this post without dealing with the rest of the stuff in the thread "Striking out Paul". Foon presents the argument better than I could.
__________________

Let us look at Paul objectively.

Paul's "gospel" is one of defeat. Paul says he tries and tries, but he just keeps on sinning (apparently constantly). Poor sap is obsessed with sin and sees it behind every bush......for himself and others. He thinks he's chained to a body of death. He has a thorn in his side, he says.

Thorn in his brain, maybe.

Paul's "gospel" is sort of pathetic.

Jesus, on the other hand, is exceedingly positive. He rather calmly tells people not to sin.

Paul would have a cat if he heard that one.

See the difference here?

Zacchaeus says, "I have given half of what I own to the poor and made amends to those I have cheated."

Jesus responds: "This man is going to heaven."

Jesus told the woman caught in adultery, "Go now and leave your life of sin."

Paul would get a severe cramp in the side on hearing that one.

Jesus said, "If the son sets you free (from sin, in context) then you shall be free indeed."

John
NO one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

Paul, however, says..........

17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.

Paul is in direct opposition to Jesus and John (and everybody) on sin......and to make it worse--Paul invented a theology of Radical Grace to cover his bizarre stance on sin.

What Paul's writings do is encourage people to think they have no choice but to sin.......but hey.....Paul says that's ok because we have the Radical Grace theology to cover us.

Unfortunately, what Paul wrote is simply wrong.

Paul's words are not confusing.

They are wrong.


edit to include link to MOD HAT in thread: http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=25140153&postcount=231

 

[elman]

Paul's "gospel" is one of defeat. Paul says he tries and tries, but he just keeps on sinning (apparently constantly). Poor sap is obsessed with sin and sees it behind every bush......for himself and others. He thinks he's chained to a body of death. He has a thorn in his side, he says.

Here we have proof that one can extract things from a body of writing and prove the opposite of what the writter said. Paul's message was one of victory in Christ over death--victory and not defeat.

Paul's "gospel" is sort of pathetic.

Paul said we can do all things in Christ. Being able to do all things is pathetic?

Jesus, on the other hand, is exceedingly positive. He rather calmly tells people not to sin.

Yes we are to be loving but Jesus knew we would need forgiveness for not being loving and He taught that also.

Paul would have a cat if he heard that one.

See the difference here?

No there is no difference. We are to be loving but we cannot be perfectly loving so we will need grace and forgiveness.

Zacchaeus says, "I have given half of what I own to the poor and made amends to those I have cheated."

Jesus responds: "This man is going to heaven."

Jesus told the woman caught in adultery, "Go now and leave your life of sin."

Paul would get a severe cramp in the side on hearing that one.

No reason to think so.

Jesus said, "If the son sets you free (from sin, in context) then you shall be free indeed."

John
NO one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

Keep reading. Both John and Jesus knew we would be unable to be perfect and would need the continuing grace and forgiveness of God.

Paul, however, says..........

17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.

Paul is in direct opposition to Jesus and John (and everybody) on sin......and to make it worse--Paul invented a theology of Radical Grace to cover his bizarre stance on sin.

I do think Paul exagerated on occasion to make a point as did Jesus and John and the others, but they all taught we are to love and we do not love we are not children of God and we all will fail to love and need forgiveness.

What Paul's writings do is encourage people to think they have no choice but to sin.......but hey.....Paul says that's ok because we have the Radical Grace theology to cover us.

Paul wrote telling people to straighten up and quite sinning. That is not in conformity to what you just said.

Unfortunately, what Paul wrote is simply wrong.

Paul's words are not confusing.

They are wrong

.

While I am in the minority of Christians who do not believe in the inerrancy of the Bible nor of the teachings of Paul and I do think Paul made mistakes in theology, I also don't think your statements have any validity. You went looking for and found what you wanted to find.

 

[swedenborgian]

Paul wrote epistles (or church letters) which were supposed to be for fellowship and encouragement for the early Christian Churches. Paul did not write in parables or even mention the parables at all. Since Jesus Christ talks in parables, Paul did not record scripture. Paul's letters must be taken as letters not scripture.

Now if you read Paul the correct way, he is often accurate but I don't think there a lot of people that read him accurately.

For instance, when Paul says we are "saved by faith and not the works of the law" Paul is talking about the same things that Isaiah is talking about in Isaiah chapter 1, that you are not saved by performing prayers and rites and rituals apart from following the important things of religion like avoiding sin, repenting, condeming ourselves because of our sin, and doing good instead of evil. Therefore Paul is technically correct about empty works but this verse is usually read completely differently. This verse is used to justify the doctrine of faith apart from charity and works.

Another one is that the "law has passed away" (not an exact quote). Some take this to mean the ten commandments has passed away. Only problem is Paul reiterates the ten commandments a few chapters further on in the same epistle! Paul was talking about all the Jewish laws that were holding their society together much like our overly complicated laws today.

Paul knew what he was talking about technically when he said "For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily." -- Colossians 2:9. I am glad Paul said that because I know that Jesus is God. Search the scriptures and you may agree that the Father and Holy Spirit do not have their own bodies but there is only one Divine Human or visible Truth of God and this world saw that Divine Human as Jesus Christ or the Son of God - the Word that became flesh.

I usually shock people when I tell them that Paul did not write down any parables and his writings are letters instead of scripture. In any true church, the church letters are taken to be church letters (which is what epistle means) and an internal interpreted sense is not attributed to them.

 

[elman]

Paul wrote epistles (or church letters) which were supposed to be for fellowship and encouragement for the early Christian Churches. Paul did not write in parables or even mention the parables at all. Since Jesus Christ talks in parables, Paul did not record scripture. Paul's letters must be taken as letters not scripture.

Now if you read Paul the correct way, he is often accurate but I don't think there a lot of people that read him accurately.

For instance, when Paul says we are "saved by faith and not the works of the law" Paul is talking about the same things that Isaiah is talking about in Isaiah chapter 1, that you are not saved by performing prayers and rites and rituals apart from following the important things of religion like avoiding sin, repenting, condeming ourselves because of our sin, and doing good instead of evil. Therefore Paul is technically correct about empty works but this verse is usually read completely differently. This verse is used to justify the doctrine of faith apart from charity and works.

Another one is that the "law has passed away" (not an exact quote). Some take this to mean the ten commandments has passed away. Only problem is Paul reiterates the ten commandments a few chapters further on in the same epistle! Paul was talking about all the Jewish laws that were holding their society together much like our overly complicated laws today.

Paul knew what he was talking about technically when he said "For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily." -- Colossians 2:9. I am glad Paul said that because I know that Jesus is God. Search the scriptures and you may agree that the Father and Holy Spirit do not have their own bodies but there is only one Divine Human or visible Truth of God and this world saw that Divine Human as Jesus Christ or the Son of God - the Word that became flesh.

I usually shock people when I tell them that Paul did not write down any parables and his writings are letters instead of scripture. In any true church, the church letters are taken to be church letters (which is what epistle means) and an internal interpreted sense is not attributed to them.

I agree.

 

[DrFate]

Agreed, but many preachers treat his letters as scripture.

 

[Vedant]

Agreed, but many preachers treat his letters as scripture.

His letters are scripture, Biblical scripture. Biblical because it is probably due to the fact that his letters were more reproduced and distributed than the letters of other early Christians.

Anyway, there are many non-Biblical scriptures that have also shaped Christianity in many ways, such as the liturgy of James, the apostle, of which most liturgies that all Christian churches use stem from.

non-Biblical does not mean un-Biblical.

 

[ONEGod]

Paul wrote of the battle that rages within humanity (all of us except the reprobate), that we have a carnal/earthly nature that is at odds with the Godly/spiritual nature.
I find that exceedingly pertinient to all Christians of all ages.
Some things that are profound, go right over some heads.

 

[Mailman Dan]

Paul's words are not confusing.

They are wrong.

While I know there is a BIG difference between Jesus and any other writer in the bible, but one thing that i've noticed, is that people who disagree with something in the bible, will try to discredit it because it doesn't line up with thir version of what their god is like. (building a religion to suit themselves)

So if Paul's worda re all wrong, what about the recorded words of Jesus?

Which of His words do you also deny that appear in the same book?

Do you agree with Him when He said these things?

Luke 12:4-5 "And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!"


Luke 13:3b
[FONT=&quot]"Unless you repent you will all likewise perish."


[/FONT] Luke 13:24-28
"Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, 'Lord, Lord, open for us,' and He will answer and say to you, 'I do not know you, where you are from,' then you will begin to say, 'We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.' But He will say, 'I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.' There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out."


This one leaves no room for misunderstanding.....


John 8:23-24
And He said to them, "You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."


Of course, if sin wasn't that important...



John 3:18
"He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."


Alot of what Jesus said, people don't agree with. When you remove parts of scripture to build your own god to your tates, its called "idolatry," and it’s the oldest sin in the Book. Idolaters will not inherit the kingdom of God. (according to the bible, if you believe those parts)

Dan~~~>believes all of scripture holds valid and meaningful text

 

[stumpjumper]

I like Paul...

I just think he's misunderstood by too many...

 

[DrFate]

His letters are scripture, Biblical scripture. Biblical because it is probably due to the fact that his letters were more reproduced and distributed than the letters of other early Christians.

Anyway, there are many non-Biblical scriptures that have also shaped Christianity in many ways, such as the liturgy of James, the apostle, of which most liturgies that all Christian churches use stem from.

non-Biblical does not mean un-Biblical.

Do you really think Paul considered the personal letters and letters of encouragement he wrote carried the same authority as the writings of Moses, or the Prophets? No way. Paul was too good a Jew to be that arrogant or foolish. In no way is Paul equal to Jesus, Moses, Ezekiel, or even James.

 

[DrFate]

Paul wrote of the battle that rages within humanity (all of us except the reprobate), that we have a carnal/earthly nature that is at odds with the Godly/spiritual nature.
I find that exceedingly pertinient to all Christians of all ages.
Some things that are profound, go right over some heads.

God blessed us with wonderful bodies and spirits and souls. Prehaps God knew what He was doing and did not make mistakes. Let us see if the Hebrew prophets hold Pauls hatred for his body? Hmmm. Nope. Who do I believe knows more about what is good God or Paul? God.

 

[DrFate]

We are discussing Paul. Luke was Pauls best friend and is a Paul clone. So when one questions Paul, Luke as Pauls deciple is also questionable.
John 8:23-24 JC was addressing a particular group of scum.

John 3:18 does not conflict with my understanding of things.

Re idolatry which is another way of saying heresy, The sectarian nature of your comment makes it impossible for me to respond without violating forum rules. I will just say that many of the Christian sects consider the others to be idolatry, and many Jewish sects believe the entire Christian religion to be idolotry. I am not going into that tar pit.

 

[DrFate]

I like Paul...

I just think he's misunderstood by too many...

My thought is that they took Pauls works and twisted them to mean more and other than the author intended. They took his recomendations for a specific understanding and made them recommendations for a general understanding.

BTW I like your signature. Merton is fun so is Newman.

 

[stumpjumper]

My thought is that they took Pauls works and twisted them to mean more and other than the author intended. They took his recomendations for a specific understanding and made them recommendations for a general understanding.

Who is they? Though...

My reading of Paul actually leads me to believe that Paul was a universalist who thought that people should live in God's grace, try not to sin, but realize that if they do sin God's grace will pull them up...

Try reading Paul without chapter breaks

BTW I like your signature. Merton is fun so is Newman.

Indeed.

 

[ONEGod]

#11
20th May 2006, 06:38 AM




DrFate
Veteran

God blessed us with wonderful bodies and spirits and souls. Prehaps God knew what He was doing and did not make mistakes. Let us see if the Hebrew prophets hold Pauls hatred for his body? Hmmm. Nope. Who do I believe knows more about what is good God or Paul? God.
__________________
The purpose of life is to live happily by practicing compassion and warm heartedness by following His paths. You may not say the Emperor has no clothes. God is my Rock and Redeemer. His Laws are a blessing. His judgements are fair. Only His words are canonical scripture.
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Last edited by DrFate : 20th May 2006 at 06:50 AM.

ONEGod:
Show me this hatred you speak of.
I find Paul acknowledged the inner conflict expressed as warring in one's own limbs. If you don't believe in Christianity, then being a Jew you might find Paul's words in conflict, but i don't see any with Jesus. Jesus was in conflict with the Jews too. Worship of one's own body would be love of self, emnity with God. Satan practiced love of self and emnity with God.

 

[DrFate]

What part of the teachings of Jesus include hatred of the wonderful gift of the body that the Father gave us?

 

[DrFate]

Who is they? Though...

My reading of Paul actually leads me to believe that Paul was a universalist who thought that people should live in God's grace, try not to sin, but realize that if they do sin God's grace will pull them up...

Try reading Paul without chapter breaks



Indeed.

They would be the political bishops, the Emporer, and the members of the Roman Civil Service who chose which books to include in the official collection.

 

[DrFate]

#11
20th May 2006, 06:38 AM




DrFate
Veteran

God blessed us with wonderful bodies and spirits and souls. Prehaps God knew what He was doing and did not make mistakes. Let us see if the Hebrew prophets hold Pauls hatred for his body? Hmmm. Nope. Who do I believe knows more about what is good God or Paul? God.
__________________
The purpose of life is to live happily by practicing compassion and warm heartedness by following His paths. You may not say the Emperor has no clothes. God is my Rock and Redeemer. His Laws are a blessing. His judgements are fair. Only His words are canonical scripture.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by DrFate : 20th May 2006 at 06:50 AM.

ONEGod:
Show me this hatred you speak of.
I find Paul acknowledged the inner conflict expressed as warring in one's own limbs. If you don't believe in Christianity, then being a Jew you might find Paul's words in conflict, but i don't see any with Jesus. Jesus was in conflict with the Jews too. Worship of one's own body would be love of self, emnity with God. Satan practiced love of self and emnity with God.

I have no problems with Jesus. I do not know of a place where Jesus preached hatred of his body.

 

[Vedant]

Do you really think Paul considered the personal letters and letters of encouragement he wrote carried the same authority as the writings of Moses, or the Prophets of YHVH? No way. Paul was too good a Jew to be that arrogant or foolish. The people who included his things in the christian bible believed they were good teaching and advice. In no way is Paul equal to Jesus, Moses, Ezekiel, or even James.

I never said that Paul's letters carry the same authority as the writings of other people. All I said was that they were Biblical scripture, whether you like it or not, the early church fathers believed that including his writings was important for some reason, you should agree to that. Clearly the message of Jesus is the entire point of Christianity, and writings before and after Jesus support His message.

I am sympathetic to people who believe that the reasons for his letters being included was not for good reasons, but I disagree with people who believe this.

I suppose my view of the Bible has changed a bit over time, but that's another story.

 

[Vedant]

My thought is that they took Pauls works and twisted them to mean more and other than the author intended. They took his recomendations for a specific understanding and made them recommendations for a general understanding.

BTW I like your signature. Merton is fun so is Newman.

DrFate, you're not the first person to realize and say this. I agree with you ;-). So does Peter, an original disciple of Jesus. I hardly ever quote Bible verses, but this does really emphasize my point:

2nd Peter 3:15-17:

And consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, as our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, also wrote to you,

speaking of these things as he does in all his letters. In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures.

Therefore, beloved, since you are forewarned, be on your guard not to be led into the error of the unprincipled and to fall from your own stability.