Paul's Vision

[BelindaP]

What does everybody think of Paul's vision? How can it best be implmented?

 

[MrJim]

I was thinking of this:
2Co 12:1 –2Co 12:2 NKJV
It is doubtless not profitable for me to boast. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord:
I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven.

Paul, vision, I was thinking the real thing

 

[desmalia]

I like post #16. Nice graphic, Jim.

 

[Nadiine]

I like post #16. Nice graphic, Jim.

 

[Nadiine]

.




.

 

[Nadiine]

I was extra bad then..

LOL
every time I see that smiley I think of you =)~

 

[Simon_Templar]

a couple of observations..

First, the vision statement there wasn't much of a vision statement. What I mean is that it gave no real sense of direction or identity, which is what visions statements are supposed to do.

What is the site really about? The answer in that vision statement would be best phrased that the site is about being everything to everyone. Thats not really a viable direction or identity. Vision requires focus.

Even at the level of goals there was really nothing there.. is the goal of this site to provide a specific type of community? is it simply to increase in numbers? is it to foster a certain kind of discussion? Apparently the goal of the site is simply to exist and be a sort of loosely christian based chat forum?

IF this site is about trying to foster unity and community among Christians then having no solid definition of Christianity is really the wrong way to go about it. This doesn't open the door to more dialogue, it opens the door to more discension and division.

The final principle here is the biblical question "what fellowship hath light with darkness?" It is totally fruitless to try and create fellowship between truth and falsehood. It is utterly impossible to do and any effort to do so will inevitably be nothing but an exercise in futility and frustration.

There are a lot of people who consider themselves Christians, who call themselves Christians, who simply aren't. Whats more, this isn't some subjective measure of a person's faith, or their "personal relationship". It is an objective measure of whether or not you subscribe to Christian doctrine. All Churches, protestant, catholic, and orthodox for all of history have agreed that if you don't subscribe to the core doctrines contained in the creeds, you are not a Christian.

Membership in the Faith is not determined by subjective judgement of a person's closeness with God, or their niceness. It is determined by whether or not you subscribe to the objectively declared truths of the gospel and the absolute Lordship of Jesus Christ.

Pretending otherwise doesn't help anyone, and it doesn't foster understanding or community. It breeds confusion.

 

[Cris413]

Oh thank goodness Simon...well stated....I was beginning to think I was the only one who saw nothing "substantial" focused or directional there....

...I really had no idea what that statement was presenting...

 

[Auntie]

I was thinking of this:
2Co 12:1 –2Co 12:2 NKJV
It is doubtless not profitable for me to boast. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord:
I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven.

Paul, vision, I was thinking the real thing

heh, me too.

 

[Nadiine]

a couple of observations..

First, the vision statement there wasn't much of a vision statement. What I mean is that it gave no real sense of direction or identity, which is what visions statements are supposed to do.

What is the site really about? The answer in that vision statement would be best phrased that the site is about being everything to everyone. Thats not really a viable direction or identity. Vision requires focus.

Even at the level of goals there was really nothing there.. is the goal of this site to provide a specific type of community? is it simply to increase in numbers? is it to foster a certain kind of discussion? Apparently the goal of the site is simply to exist and be a sort of loosely christian based chat forum?

IF this site is about trying to foster unity and community among Christians then having no solid definition of Christianity is really the wrong way to go about it. This doesn't open the door to more dialogue, it opens the door to more discension and division.

The final principle here is the biblical question "what fellowship hath light with darkness?" It is totally fruitless to try and create fellowship between truth and falsehood. It is utterly impossible to do and any effort to do so will inevitably be nothing but an exercise in futility and frustration.

There are a lot of people who consider themselves Christians, who call themselves Christians, who simply aren't. Whats more, this isn't some subjective measure of a person's faith, or their "personal relationship". It is an objective measure of whether or not you subscribe to Christian doctrine. All Churches, protestant, catholic, and orthodox for all of history have agreed that if you don't subscribe to the core doctrines contained in the creeds, you are not a Christian.

Membership in the Faith is not determined by subjective judgement of a person's closeness with God, or their niceness. It is determined by whether or not you subscribe to the objectively declared truths of the gospel and the absolute Lordship of Jesus Christ.

Pretending otherwise doesn't help anyone, and it doesn't foster understanding or community. It breeds confusion.

qft - esp. these gems:

IF this site is about trying to foster unity and community among Christians then having no solid definition of Christianity is really the wrong way to go about it. This doesn't open the door to more dialogue, it opens the door to more discension and division.

There are a lot of people who consider themselves Christians, who call themselves Christians, who simply aren't. Whats more, this isn't some subjective measure of a person's faith, or their "personal relationship". It is an objective measure of whether or not you subscribe to Christian doctrine. All Churches, protestant, catholic, and orthodox for all of history have agreed that if you don't subscribe to the core doctrines contained in the creeds, you are not a Christian.

That's been our declared concern to ownership and staff for 2 years now - unity with no definition of Christianity - is not unity, it breeds division - (or acceptance of heresy which God tells us not to welcome or embrace those who bring another gospel).

From my study, the scripture is actually counter to what is being forced here for
"unity" when people bring other gospels of immorality and rejection of
scripture itself... while being told to love and unite as family.

But hey, whatever, they like it this way- then yell at us for the
division. I'll obey God over a forum any day of the week

 

[Nadiine]

Oh thank goodness Simon...well stated....I was beginning to think I was the only one who saw nothing "substantial" focused or directional there....

...I really had no idea what that statement was presenting...

(pssssst- more of the same)






.

 

[JimfromOhio]

I like this quote:
“Love people, disciple the saints, win the lost; all else is baggage.”

For us members who are committed to the Lord's work and is motivated to reach others is going to see many needs that haven't been met as yet. Therefore we are to always be planning how to meet them. Such a person has a visionary perspective. That person never satisfied merely with what is being done or not done becaue that person focuses on what isn't being done and that is why he or she plans ahead, looking for new worlds to conquer. Willing to be facing the reality of unmet opportunity, waiting for new doors to open up. Anyone who does the Lord's work in the Lord's way must have a sense of vision. We can't get bogged down with our present circumstances to the point we assume there's nothing left to do. One of the challenges of the ministry is the sense that we never finish the work. No matter what we do, there's always something that isn't being done. Many people forget and often try to do their own ways circumstances happens that they never stop and think. Their human minds often see doors closing when ignoring another door opening. God has given us opportunities to do the Great Commission with our circumstances which means an opportunity that is defined as a providential circumstance which permits us to use to glorify God. God wants us to be busy rejoicing in the gracious prospect of all opportunities of God's will. Providential of God leads us to what I call "coincidences" in their lives which perhaps God will make sure that His wills will be done at His right time and place.

That's my interpretation of CF's Vision.

When you say that a situation or a person is hopeless, you are slamming the door in the face of God. Charles L. Allen

 

[MrJim]

Oh thank goodness Simon...well stated....I was beginning to think I was the only one who saw nothing "substantial" focused or directional there....

...I really had no idea what that statement was presenting...

 

[Cris413]

In all honesty....it doesn't really matter to me anymore...it was what it was...is what it is and will be what it will be...

I'll just continue to hang out....and participate the best I can until the Lord places on my heart it's time to depart and shake the dust off my feet...

I did like this part:

36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself. 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." Matt 22:36-40


I think the reason many of us get upset is because so many seem to not have that kind of love for God...or any love at all for that matter

If they did....they wouldn't wouldn't be attacking Him and His word with such fervor.

Many posters cry out love for our neighbor.....love for our neighbor...but yet....treat God and His word and those who love Him and His word with hate and disdain....

Jesus also said:

Mat 10:34 "Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword.
Mat 10:35 For I have come to "set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law';
Mat 10:36 and "a man's enemies will be those of his own household.'
Mat 10:37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.
Mat 10:38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.
Mat 10:39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.

Striving for "unity" with those who rebel and refute God's word simply IS NOT going to happen.

And it seems to me...those who attack the OT character and nature of God do not embrace the Trinity....or the Triune nature of God....like God as presented in the OT was somehow "dethroned" by Jesus....

Not only are they the same....but Jesus during His earthly ministry being God AND fully man...submitted to the FATHER....that OT ogre and bully!

Joh 8:25 Then they said to Him, "Who are You?"
And Jesus said to them, "Just what I have been saying to you from the beginning.
Joh 8:26 I have many things to say and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I heard from Him."
Joh 8:27 They did not understand that He spoke to them of the Father.
Joh 8:28 Then Jesus said to them, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things.
Joh 8:29 And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things that please Him."
Joh 8:30 As He spoke these words, many believed in Him.

And IMHO....it's our love for the Lord...that should fill every aspect of our lives and while it's all well and good to use "love your neighbor...." as a call to unity....until we ALL can love the Lord above ALL others....including ourselves....it's just not gonna happen...and nor should it.

And....IMHO....when we pluck out single verses to build doctrine or some "mission statement" well...we do error....because it's the FULL COUNSEL OF GOD'S WORD by the power of the Holy Spirit....that truly molds and shapes us more and more into His likeness....so that we are pleasing in His sight.

There is however, unity IN the Body....and if there is division....it's because there is some conflict between the flesh and the Spirit....conflict between the worldly and the Kingdom...and Scripture is the measuring stick by which ALL things are subject to discernment.

 

[Tonks]

And, why do I post here? Because the Lutheran forum is a no-go zone unless you're on the conservative end of WELS. And the Catholic forum is run by ubertrads who can't follow Church doctrine unless it's about abortion.

These concern me too and we're working on fixing them...but the pace of change is slow. Of course I expect howls that I'm betraying conservatives / liberals / whatever. I'm just tired of it.

I have been posting in the theology forum, not just here. However, the hate there is starting to get to me.

You and me both.

Add to the mix some seriously biased modding and an RT that has no teeth, and CF is dying.

Funny...the Admins are continually in a froth because the RT keeps overturning dumb infractions and bans. I suppose the view depends on where you sit. With respect to the "dying" I've been hearing that for years...and keep seeing the same familiar faces. Of course a small minority of those do nothing but complain and I wouldn't mind seeing them post elsewhere on the internet.

The owner of the forum just posted huggles, bunnies and kumbaya but disappeared afterward. Now, the advisors are telling the few remaining people here to leave. What are we supposed to think.

I'm not telling people to leave, Belinda. Give me a break. I was merely indicating with all of the people that continually state they 'know for a fact' about traffic, posts etc...that people leaving in a huff really won't have any great effect. The people that do nothing but complain? I've made no secret of wanting them gone. However, 99.9% of CF's membership isn't in that category.

 

[meh]

I'm not saying we're perfect, however I do think membership needs to take responsibility for some of this. I don't think some members are community oriented. We get PMs daily from people who think we let conservatives get away with anything; people who think we let liberals get away with anything; people who want to create more new congregational forums to kick out those in their denomination they feel aren't "truly" of the denomination; we get requests daily to close various forums because they aren't Christian enough; we get daily requests to open the entire board and have no CO areas; we get requests to make more of the board CO.

Without members there is no board. I understand that. However, I'm also not going to be quiet anymore and allow myself, Tonks, arbor, Gweny, Paul, and the entire staff take beatings when people aren't taking responsibility for their own mistakes and behavior. (Not pointing to anyone on this thread in particular. It happens to be the thread talking about this issue). I find some of the forums here unbearable. Christians are bashed left and right in some areas. In other areas, non-Christians are bashed. And then we have areas where Christians bash each other with no mercy. I don't find that community oriented. I find that to be people who want everything their way or no way and they have no patience for anyone who doesn't believe exactly as they do. Which is actually fine if you come down to it. Don't have patience. I don't care. But post as if you do. CPE in particular was offensive as I don't believe a lot of theories there, either, however I would never tell someone who disagrees with me they aren't really Christian, and that was happening.

So according to feedback and complaints there are too many CO areas, there aren't enough CO areas, some people don't actually belong in the area or denomination to which they belong, there should be more denominational splits, there should be no denominational splits, the board is too conservative, and the board is too liberal. Which should we believe?

 

[BelindaP]

Meh and Tonks. I'm glad you're posting, and I hope this thread doesn't get closed. imo, things are on the point of blowing, and it's good we are finally all getting to vent our spleens a bit. I think the move to keep things behind the scenes has separated the Advisors from the members to where frustrations build up, and there is no safety valve. A good throw down can be helpful from time to time.

Now, in terms of the whining. Yes, we do a lot of that. Every board is going to have whiners. It's often good to ignore them for the most part. But, when the conservative whiners and the liberal whiners are whining about the same thing, it might be time for a listen.

The thing in Paul's vision that I found most disheartening was his viewing this site like a church. That only opens the door up to even more exclusion. I know he's talking about us all getting along and being charitable and such. But, if we are constrained to this place being a church, I don't know that there can be any outreach at all. Maybe that's the point. Perhaps he doesn't want to do outreach. If that's the case, then he needs to be more clear.

 

[edie19]

FWIW - at this point Ecumenical staff has no intention of closing the thread

we are following the thread and what is being posted here - there may be some cleanup in the future but not until staff has reviewed

 

[meh]

Meh and Tonks. I'm glad you're posting, and I hope this thread doesn't get closed. imo, things are on the point of blowing, and it's good we are finally all getting to vent our spleens a bit. I think the move to keep things behind the scenes has separated the Advisors from the members to where frustrations build up, and there is no safety valve. A good throw down can be helpful from time to time.

Now, in terms of the whining. Yes, we do a lot of that. Every board is going to have whiners. It's often good to ignore them for the most part. But, when the conservative whiners and the liberal whiners are whining about the same thing, it might be time for a listen.

The thing in Paul's vision that I found most disheartening was his viewing this site like a church. That only opens the door up to even more exclusion. I know he's talking about us all getting along and being charitable and such. But, if we are constrained to this place being a church, I don't know that there can be any outreach at all. Maybe that's the point. Perhaps he doesn't want to do outreach. If that's the case, then he needs to be more clear.

I don't see any reason right now it should be closed. I'm posting because I'm making more of an effort on the board and in staff forums to let people in on my thinking, my frustrations with the board, etc. It may work or it may be a huge mistake, but frankly I just don't feel like hiding everything anymore.

I don't think the vision is all that clear on outreach. At first I thought it was, but then I got to thinking more about it and I'm not sure. Paul is way far away for awhile on a vacation. When he gets back we'll hound him to perhaps get a clearer picture.

I am still firm on the belief that members can do much more than Advisors can on making the board better. I am so very tired of denoms fighting with each other, people mistreating others because their politics differ, being mean in general, etc. We can't change that, because we can't change people. We can hammer down on behavior, and we probably will, but that still doesn't solve the issue. If people in your denom are going to be mean because you don't believe like they do- I can't do much about that. We can moderate the posts, but we can't change the attitude. That's the main problem I see in a lot of different areas on CF.

 

[meh]

and also, I have long maintained that if the technical issues ever get fixed and the cool features stuff ever gets added back CF will be more fun again.