Paul's Renewed Understanding of the Covenant

[daq]

The following passage is a perfect example of the renewed covenant understanding according to Paul's renewed understanding in his writings. If we pay close attention to the context it appears that the commandment, "You shalt not muzzle the ox when he treads out the corn", is out of place and even sticks out like a sore thumb. No doubt this is intentional, so as to bring something critical to the attention of the observant hearer of the message, and now being that it is written since so long ago, also of course to bring something critical to the attention of the observant reader.

The passage is speaking of things between men, (verses one through three), and even brethren, (verse five), but in the midst of these instructions we find a command concerning oxen! Why would this be placed here in this context so that it sticks out like a sore thumb and seems so out of place in the context? What is this telling us?

What does the Spirit say?

Deuteronomy 25:1-5 KJV
1 If there be a controversy between men, and they come unto judgment, that the judges may judge them; then they shall justify the righteous, and condemn the wicked.
2 And it shall be, if the wicked man be worthy to be beaten, that the judge shall cause him to lie down, and to be beaten before his face, according to his fault, by a certain number.
3 Forty stripes he may give him, and not exceed: lest, if he should exceed, and beat him above these with many stripes, then thy brother should seem vile unto thee.
4 Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn.
5 If brethren dwell together, and one of them die, and have no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger: her husband's brother shall go in unto her, and take her to him to wife, and perform the duty of an husband's brother unto her.

The Spirit says this: you are the ox, O man. And I learned this from Paul in his renewed covenant teachings, for just as he says, the Torah is spiritual, (Romans 7:14a).

1 Corinthians 9:7-11 KJV
7 Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?
8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?
9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?

 

[klutedavid]

The following passage is a perfect example of the renewed covenant understanding according to Paul's renewed understanding in his writings. If we pay close attention to the context it appears that the commandment, "You shalt not muzzle the ox when he treads out the corn", is out of place and even sticks out like a sore thumb. No doubt this is intentional, so as to bring something critical to the attention of the observant hearer of the message, and now being that it is written since so long ago, also of course to bring something critical to the attention of the observant reader.

The passage is speaking of things between men, (verses one through three), and even brethren, (verse five), but in the midst of these instructions we find a command concerning oxen! Why would this be placed here in this context so that it sticks out like a sore thumb and seems so out of place in the context? What is this telling us?

What does the Spirit say?

Deuteronomy 25:1-5 KJV
1 If there be a controversy between men, and they come unto judgment, that the judges may judge them; then they shall justify the righteous, and condemn the wicked.
2 And it shall be, if the wicked man be worthy to be beaten, that the judge shall cause him to lie down, and to be beaten before his face, according to his fault, by a certain number.
3 Forty stripes he may give him, and not exceed: lest, if he should exceed, and beat him above these with many stripes, then thy brother should seem vile unto thee.
4 Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn.
5 If brethren dwell together, and one of them die, and have no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger: her husband's brother shall go in unto her, and take her to him to wife, and perform the duty of an husband's brother unto her.

The Spirit says this: you are the ox, O man. And I learned this from Paul in his renewed covenant teachings, for just as he says, the Torah is spiritual, (Romans 7:14a).

1 Corinthians 9:7-11 KJV
7 Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?
8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?
9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?

Paul read the law by way of allegory. The simple written text of the law was symbolic and prophetic. The law described the Christ in very deep detail. The law was really all about Jesus.

The law called for someone, anyone, that could obey it. Not until Jesus, has the world ever witnessed anyone, actually obeying the fullness of the law. Not one person in history ever obeyed the letter of the law.

The Torah is spiritual but applied, directed, at the flesh of man. The Torah is written on stone tablets, the Torah has a physical manifestation.

The notification of the law is that you are condemned, sinful, evil, simply because no one is righteous. That is, in plain English, no one can obey the law. The law is absolutely opposed to us in every way. Even our thoughts transgress the law.

All the law ultimately delivered to us, was the knowledge of how deeply, we are opposed to love and truth.

Moses spoke of Jesus, Moses spoke the law, Jesus was the only one who could obey that law.

Make no mistake here, the Old Testament itself, is overloaded with the testimony of Jesus.

 

[daq]

Paul read the law by way of allegory. The simple written text of the law was symbolic and prophetic. The law described the Christ in very deep detail. The law was really all about Jesus.

The law called for someone, anyone, that could obey it. Not until Jesus, has the world ever witnessed anyone, actually obeying the fullness of the law. Not one person in history ever obeyed the letter of the law.

The Torah is spiritual but applied, directed, at the flesh of man. The Torah is written on stone tablets, the Torah has a physical manifestation.

The notification of the law is that you are condemned, sinful, evil, simply because no one is righteous. That is, in plain English, no one can obey the law. The law is absolutely opposed to us in every way. Even our thoughts transgress the law.

All the law ultimately delivered to us, was the knowledge of how deeply, we are opposed to love and truth.

Moses spoke of Jesus, Moses spoke the law, Jesus was the only one who could obey that law.

Make no mistake here, the Old Testament itself, is overloaded with the testimony of Jesus.

I have numerous disagreements with what you have said but, for one, "The Torah is written on stone tablets, the Torah has a physical manifestation."

That portion in italics is the clearest of them all. The Ten Words or Ten Commandments were written in stone. The Torah was and is written on skin, flesh, (and it is indeed a physical manifestation as you said), and before modern Jewry came along it was written in sheepskins, lambskins, and goat-skins, (membrana, which is also parchment, see 2 Timothy 4:13). The panels of sheepskin were sewn together as one with hairs white as wool, (the bleached white threads), like brethren whose hearts are stitched or knitted together as one, as David and Yonathan, 1 Samuel 18:1. Paul is surely speaking in this allegory in the following passages.

Colossians 2:2-3 KJV
2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

2 Corinthians 2:1-3 KJV
1 Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?
2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

We do therefore agree, at least, on the allegorical language.

 

[SkyWriting]

4 Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn.

In grade school the kids at lunch gave me a hard time when I quoted that one to them.

 

[disciple Clint]

The following passage is a perfect example of the renewed covenant understanding according to Paul's renewed understanding in his writings. If we pay close attention to the context it appears that the commandment, "You shalt not muzzle the ox when he treads out the corn", is out of place and even sticks out like a sore thumb. No doubt this is intentional, so as to bring something critical to the attention of the observant hearer of the message, and now being that it is written since so long ago, also of course to bring something critical to the attention of the observant reader.

The passage is speaking of things between men, (verses one through three), and even brethren, (verse five), but in the midst of these instructions we find a command concerning oxen! Why would this be placed here in this context so that it sticks out like a sore thumb and seems so out of place in the context? What is this telling us?

What does the Spirit say?

Deuteronomy 25:1-5 KJV
1 If there be a controversy between men, and they come unto judgment, that the judges may judge them; then they shall justify the righteous, and condemn the wicked.
2 And it shall be, if the wicked man be worthy to be beaten, that the judge shall cause him to lie down, and to be beaten before his face, according to his fault, by a certain number.
3 Forty stripes he may give him, and not exceed: lest, if he should exceed, and beat him above these with many stripes, then thy brother should seem vile unto thee.
4 Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn.
5 If brethren dwell together, and one of them die, and have no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger: her husband's brother shall go in unto her, and take her to him to wife, and perform the duty of an husband's brother unto her.

The Spirit says this: you are the ox, O man. And I learned this from Paul in his renewed covenant teachings, for just as he says, the Torah is spiritual, (Romans 7:14a).

1 Corinthians 9:7-11 KJV
7 Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?
8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?
9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?

Paul’s citation of Deuteronomy 25:4 in 1 Corinthians 9:9 is more complicated and has generated more discussion. At the end of the day, the function and argument is the same. What was a general principle in 1 Timothy 5:18 now becomes a personal and specific instantiation of this idea. Here Paul is arguing that he and Barnabas have the right to receive adequate compensation for their ministry labors. The most striking feature for our purposes is that Paul seems to say that God is really not concerned about the oxen after all, which is in tension with the traditional interpretation that the primary purpose of Deuteronomy 25:4 is to protect the oxen (that is, the one doing the work).

His point is not really that the Corinthians should have compassion or mercy for him and Barnabas, but that this is a matter of fundamental justice. The issue is not really kindness, but rights. When Paul says this is not really about the oxen, he is pointing to this wider and deeper reality at play in this verse as it was originally to be understood. Therefore the Corinthians should want to provide appropriate compensation as an expression of justice, even if Paul ultimately rejects the offer.
Do Not Muzzle the Ox: Does Paul Quote Moses Out of Context?

 

[daq]

Paul’s citation of Deuteronomy 25:4 in 1 Corinthians 9:9 is more complicated and has generated more discussion. At the end of the day, the function and argument is the same. What was a general principle in 1 Timothy 5:18 now becomes a personal and specific instantiation of this idea. Here Paul is arguing that he and Barnabas have the right to receive adequate compensation for their ministry labors. The most striking feature for our purposes is that Paul seems to say that God is really not concerned about the oxen after all, which is in tension with the traditional interpretation that the primary purpose of Deuteronomy 25:4 is to protect the oxen (that is, the one doing the work).

His point is not really that the Corinthians should have compassion or mercy for him and Barnabas, but that this is a matter of fundamental justice. The issue is not really kindness, but rights. When Paul says this is not really about the oxen, he is pointing to this wider and deeper reality at play in this verse as it was originally to be understood. Therefore the Corinthians should want to provide appropriate compensation as an expression of justice, even if Paul ultimately rejects the offer.
Do Not Muzzle the Ox: Does Paul Quote Moses Out of Context?

Kind of hard to debate something with someone who isn't here. But I did read the whole article and disagree with what the author himself calls his own interpretation. Not that it's bad but that it's based in speculation that we don't have from the scripture. The text doesn't say anything about a borrowed ox.

However this isn't the only commandment concerning oxen and similarly in the Prophets we have men likened to beasts, bullocks, heifers, ("Ephraim is a taught heifer who loves to tread out (the grain)" Hosea 10:11a), fatlings of Bashan, and so on.

Note the mention of rewards at the close of these quotes.

Matthew 5:39-46 KJV
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

Luke 6:29, 35 KJV
29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also.
---
35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

Turning the other cheek comes from an ox statute in the Torah. The word push in the following KJV reading is to but with the horns.

Exodus 21:32 KJV
32 If the ox shall push a manservant or a maidservant; he shall give unto their master thirty shekels of silver, and the ox shall be stoned.

Matthew 26:48-49 KJV
48 Now he that betrayed him gave them a sign, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, that same is he: hold him fast.
49 And forthwith he came to Jesus, and said, Hail, master; and kissed him.

Luke 22:47-48 KJV
47 And while he yet spake, behold a multitude, and he that was called Judas, one of the twelve, went before them, and drew near unto Jesus to kiss him.
48 But Jesus said unto him, Judas, betrayest thou the Son of man with a kiss?

Understand? The master of Judas, (who is the Satan), legally becomes indebted in the amount of thirty shekels of silver because our Master "turned the other cheek". It's a legal argument full of supernal or spiritual meaning and implication. It's also "heavenly money", and of course not real: but our rewards are real if we turn the other cheek as the Master admonishes us to do, (and of course that reward is also spiritual).

 

[SkyWriting]

The law called for someone, anyone, that could obey it. Not until Jesus, has the world ever witnessed anyone, actually obeying the fullness of the law. Not one person in history ever obeyed the letter of the law.

Jesus was accused of breaking the Sabbath.
He was also crucified for some reason.

 

[BABerean2]

Colossians 2:2-3 KJV
2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

Joh 5:15 The man departed, and told the Jews that it was Jesus, which had made him whole.
Joh 5:16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.
Joh 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.


Col 2:16 Let no one, then, judge you in eating or in drinking, or in respect of a feast, or of a new moon, or of sabbaths,
Col 2:17 which are a shadow of the coming things, and the body is of the Christ; (YLT)



Early Church Fathers who lived before the Council of Nicaea on the Sabbath:


Ignatius of Antioch

If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death—whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master(Letter to the Magnesians(shorter) Chapter IX.—Let us live with Christ [A.D. 110]).

During the Sabbath He continued under the earth in the tomb in which Joseph of Arimathæa had laid Him. At the dawning of the Lord’s day He arose from the dead, according to what was spoken by Himself, “As Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly, so shall the Son of man also be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.” The day of the preparation, then, comprises the passion; the Sabbath embraces the burial; the Lord’s Day contains the resurrection(The Epistle of Ignatius to the Trallians Longer Versions. Chapter IX.—Reference to the history of Christ.)

Justin Martyr

The Lawgiver is present, yet you do not see Him; to the poor the Gospel is preached, the blind see, yet you do not understand. You have now need of a second circumcision, though you glory greatly in the flesh. The new law requires you to keep perpetual sabbath, and you, because you are idle for one day, suppose you are pious, not discerning why this has been commanded you: and if you eat unleavened bread, you say the will of God has been fulfilled. The Lord our God does not take pleasure in such observances: if there is any perjured person or a thief among you, let him cease to be so; if any adulterer, let him repent; then he has kept the sweet and true sabbaths of God. If any one has impure hands, let him wash and be pure.(Dialogue with Trypho the Jew Chapter XII.—The Jews violate the eternal law, and interpret ill that of Moses.)

For we too would observe the fleshly circumcision, and the Sabbaths, and in short all the feasts, if we did not know for what reason they were enjoined you,—namely, on account of your transgressions and the hardness of your hearts. For if we patiently endure all things contrived against us by wicked men and demons, so that even amid cruelties unutterable, death and torments, we pray for mercy to those who inflict such things upon us, and do not wish to give the least retort to any one, even as the new Lawgiver commanded us: how is it, Trypho, that we would not observe those rites which do not harm us, —I speak of fleshly circumcision, and Sabbaths, and feasts?(Dialogue with Trypho the Jew Chapter XVIII.—Christians would observe the law, if they did not know why it was instituted. [A.D. 155]).

And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday,1 all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.(First Apology Chapter LXVII.—Weekly worship of the Christians. [A.D. 155]).

“Wherefore, Trypho, I will proclaim to you, and to those who wish to become proselytes, the divine message which I heard from that man. Do you see that the elements are not idle, and keep no Sabbaths? Remain as you were born. For if there was no need of circumcision before Abraham, or of the observance of Sabbaths, of feasts and sacrifices, before Moses; no more need is there of them now, after that, according to the will of God, Jesus Christ the Son of God has been born without sin, of a virgin sprung from the stock of Abraham. For when Abraham himself was in uncircumcision, he was justified and blessed by reason of the faith which he reposed in God, as the Scripture tells. Moreover, the Scriptures and the facts themselves compel us to admit that He received circumcision for a sign, and not for righteousness.(The Second Apology of Justin for the Christians Addressed to the Roman Senate. Chapter XXIII.—The opinion of the Jews regarding the law does an injury to God.)

“As, then, circumcision began with Abraham, and the Sabbath and sacrifices and offerings and feasts with Moses, and it has been proved they were enjoined on account of the hardness of your people’s heart, so it was necessary, in accordance with the Father’s will, that they should have an end in Him who was born of a virgin, of the family of Abraham and tribe of Judah, and of David; in Christ the Son of God, who was proclaimed as about to come to all the world, to be the everlasting law and the everlasting covenant, even as the forementioned prophecies show.(The Second Apology of Justin for the Christians Addressed to the Roman Senate. Chapter XLIII.—He concludes that the law had an end in Christ, who was born of the Virgin.)

Tertullian

“[L]et him who contends that the Sabbath is still to be observed as a balm of salvation, and circumcision on the eighth day . . . teach us that, for the time past, righteous men kept the Sabbath or practiced circumcision, and were thus rendered ‘friends of God.’ For if circumcision purges a man, since God made Adam uncircumcised, why did he not circumcise him, even after his sinning, if circumcision purges? . . . Therefore, since God originated Adam uncircumcised and unobservant of the Sabbath, consequently his offspring also, Abel, offering him sacrifices, uncircumcised and unobservant of the Sabbath, was by him [God] commended [Gen. 4:1–7, Heb. 11:4]. . . . Noah also, uncircumcised—yes, and unobservant of the Sabbath—God freed from the deluge. For Enoch too, most righteous man, uncircumcised and unobservant of the Sabbath, he translated from this world, who did not first taste death in order that, being a candidate for eternal life, he might show us that we also may, without the burden of the law of Moses, please God”(An Answer to the Jews Chapter II.—The Law Anterior to Moses. [A.D. 203]).

It follows, accordingly, that, in so far as the abolition of carnal circumcision and of the old law is demonstrated as having been consummated at its specific times, so also the observance of the Sabbath is demonstrated to have been temporary.For the Jews say, that from the beginning God sanctified the seventh day, by resting on it from all His works which He made; and that thence it was, likewise, that Moses said to the People: “Remember the day of the sabbaths, to sanctify it: every servile work ye shall not do therein, except what pertaineth unto life.” Whence we (Christians) understand that we still more ought to observe a sabbath from all “servile work” always, and not only every seventh day, but through all time. And through this arises the question for us, what sabbath God willed us to keep? For the Scriptures point to a sabbath eternal and a sabbath temporal. For Isaiah the prophet says, “Your sabbaths my soul hateth;” and in another place he says, “My sabbaths ye have profaned.”9 Whence we discern that the temporal sabbath is human, and the eternal sabbath is accounted divine; concerning which He predicts through Isaiah: “And there shall be,” He says, “month after month, and day after day, and sabbath after sabbath; and all flesh shall come to adore in Jerusalem, saith the Lord;” which we understand to have been fulfilled in the times of Christ, when “all flesh”—that is, every nation—“came to adore in Jerusalem” God the Father, through Jesus Christ His Son, as was predicted through the prophet: “Behold, proselytes through me shall go unto Thee.” Thus, therefore, before this temporal sabbath, there was withal an eternal sabbath foreshown and foretold; just as before the carnal circumcision there was withal a spiritual circumcision foreshown. In short, let them teach us, as we have already premised, that Adam observed the sabbath; or that Abel, when offering to God a holy victim, pleased Him by a religious reverence for the sabbath; or that Enoch, when translated, had been a keeper of the sabbath; or that Noah the ark-builder observed, on account of the deluge, an immense sabbath; or that Abraham, in observance of the sabbath, offered Isaac his son; or that Melchizedek in his priesthood received the law of the sabbath

But the Jews are sure to say, that ever since this precept was given through Moses, the observance has been binding. Manifest accordingly it is, that the precept was not eternal nor spiritual, but temporary, which would one day cease. In short, so true is it that it is not in the exemption from work of the sabbath—that is, of the seventh day—that the celebration of this solemnity is to consist, that Joshua the son of Nun, at the time that he was reducing the city Jericho by war, stated that he had received from God a precept to order the People that priests should carry the ark of the testament of God seven days, making the circuit of the city; and thus, when the seventh day’s circuit had been performed, the walls of the city would spontaneously fall. Which was so done; and when the space of the seventh day was finished, just as was predicted, down fell the walls of the city. Whence it is manifestly shown, that in the number of the seven days there intervened a sabbath-day. For seven days, whencesoever they may have commenced, must necessarily include within them a sabbath-day; on which day not only must the priests have worked, but the city must have been made a prey by the edge of the sword by all the people of Israel. Nor is it doubtful that they “wrought servile work,” when, in obedience to God’s precept, they drave the preys of war. For in the times of the Maccabees, too, they did bravely in fighting on the sabbaths, and routed their foreign foes, and recalled the law of their fathers to the primitive style of life by fighting on the sabbaths. Nor should I think it was any other law which they thus vindicated, than the one in which they remembered the existence of the prescript touching “the day of the sabbaths.” Whence it is manifest that the force of such precepts was temporary, and respected the necessity of present circumstances; and that it was not with a view to its observance in perpetuity that God formerly gave them such a law.(An Answer to the Jews Chapter IV.—Of the Observance of the Sabbath.)

Therefore, since it is manifest that a sabbath temporal was shown, and a sabbath eternal foretold; a circumcision carnal foretold, and a circumcision spiritual pre-indicated; a law temporal and a law eternal formally declared; sacrifices carnal and sacrifices spiritual foreshown; it follows that, after all these precepts had been given carnally, in time preceding, to the people Israel, there was to supervene a time whereat the precepts of the ancient Law and of the old ceremonies would cease, and the promise3 of the new law, and the recognition of spiritual sacrifices, and the promise of the New Testament, supervene;4 while the light from on high would beam upon us who were sitting in darkness, and were being detained in the shadow of death.5 And so there is incumbent on us a necessity6 binding us, since we have premised that a new law was predicted by the prophets, and that not such as had been already given to their fathers at the time when He led them forth from the land of Egypt,7 to show and prove, on the one hand, that that old Law has ceased, and on the other, that the promised new law is now in operation.

And, indeed, first we must inquire whether there be expected a giver of the new law, and an heir of the new testament, and a priest of the new sacrifices, and a purger of the new circumcision, and an observer of the eternal sabbath, to suppress the old law, and institute the new testament, and offer the new sacrifices, and repress the ancient ceremonies, and suppress8 the old circumcision together with its own sabbath, and announce the new kingdom which is not corruptible. Inquire, I say, we must, whether this giver of the new law, observer of the spiritual sabbath, priest of the eternal sacrifices, eternal ruler of the eternal kingdom, be come or no: that, if he is already come, service may have to be rendered him; if he is not yet come, he may have to be awaited, until by his advent it be manifest that the old Law’s precepts are suppressed, and that the beginnings of the new law ought to arise. And, primarily, we must lay it down that the ancient Law and the prophets could not have ceased, unless He were come who was constantly announced, through the same Law and through the same prophets, as to come.(An Answer to the Jews Chapter VI.—Of the Abolition and the Abolisher of the Old Law. [A.D. 203]).

But you, many of you, also under pretence sometimes of worshipping the heavenly bodies, move your lips in the direction of the sunrise. In the same way, if we devote Sun-day to rejoicing, from a far different reason than Sun-worship, we have some resemblance to those of you who devote the day of Saturn to ease and luxury, though they too go far away from Jewish ways, of which indeed they are ignorant.(Apology Chapter XVI.)


The 4th commandment was the "sign" of the Sinai Covenant now found to be "obsolete" in Hebrews 8:13.

We are not come to Mount Sinai in Hebrews 12:18, but we are come instead to the New Covenant of Mount Zion in Hebrews 12:22-24.

.

 

[klutedavid]

I have numerous disagreements with what you have said but, for one, "The Torah is written on stone tablets, the Torah has a physical manifestation."

That portion in italics is the clearest of them all. The Ten Words or Ten Commandments were written in stone. The Torah was and is written on skin, flesh, (and it is indeed a physical manifestation as you said), and before modern Jewry came along it was written in sheepskins, lambskins, and goat-skins, (membrana, which is also parchment, see 2 Timothy 4:13). The panels of sheepskin were sewn together as one with hairs white as wool, (the bleached white threads), like brethren whose hearts are stitched or knitted together as one, as David and Yonathan, 1 Samuel 18:1. Paul is surely speaking in this allegory in the following passages.

Colossians 2:2-3 KJV
2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

2 Corinthians 2:1-3 KJV
1 Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?
2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

We do therefore agree, at least, on the allegorical language.

We agree, definitely.

The Old Testament itself is one giant allegory.

Sacrifices a type of Christ.
Priesthood a type of Christ.
Transgression of the law, we are all guilty, Christ exceeded all the requirements of the law.
Moses spoke about Jesus, all the way, through the law.

The tree in the center of Eden, was the Lord Himself.

Abraham sacrificing His Son, symbol of Christ sacrificing Himself for us.

On and on it goes, it was all really an allegory, of Jesus Christ.

If you look hard you will see Jesus leading the people out of Egypt.

 

[daq]

We agree, definitely.

The Old Testament itself is one giant allegory.

Sacrifices a type of Christ.
Priesthood a type of Christ.
Transgression of the law, we are all guilty, Christ exceeded all the requirements of the law.
Moses spoke about Jesus, all the way, through the law.

The tree in the center of Eden, was the Lord Himself.

Abraham sacrificing His Son, symbol of Christ sacrificing Himself for us.

On and on it goes, it was all really an allegory, of Jesus Christ.

If you look hard you will see Jesus leading the people out of Egypt.

Now we are getting somewhere. Good post.

 

[daq]

Joh 5:15 The man departed, and told the Jews that it was Jesus, which had made him whole.
Joh 5:16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.
Joh 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

Thanks for quoting this and reinforcing the point both in this thread and the previous thread, (Covenant Renewal). This is once again the Messiah overthrowing their handwritten ordinances, dogmas, and decrees by way of his doctrine, which isn't even his own doctrine but the Father's, (John 7:16-17). And we can see from that passage what the charge actually concerns in the passage you have quoted from. The charge is mesith, which is a beguiler of the people, for it was not him that broke any commandment at all, rather, what he told someone else to do, (take up his mattress and walk), overturned their dogmas and decrees which they foisted upon the Shabbat teachings in the Torah.

John 7:11-17 KJV
11 Then the Jews sought him at the feast, and said, Where is he?
12 And there was much murmuring among the people concerning him: for some said, He is a good man: others said, Nay; but he deceiveth the people. [mesith, beguiler of the people]
13 Howbeit no man spake openly of him for fear of the Jews.
14 Now about the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and taught.
15 And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?
16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

So it is not that he broke any of the Shabbat instructions in the Torah, (John 5:18), but rather that he loosened their restrictions, handwritten ordinances, dogmas, and decrees, which were against the people, and were distorting the meaning and purpose of the Shabbat. This once again shows that he is renewing the covenant by way of the doctrine given to him from the Father.

 

[daq]

Col 2:16 Let no one, then, judge you in eating or in drinking, or in respect of a feast, or of a new moon, or of sabbaths,
Col 2:17 which are a shadow of the coming things, and the body is of the Christ; (YLT)

While I do not agree with your understanding of the passage it sure is good to know that I don't need to put up with anyone judging my Torah observance.

Colossians 2:13-22 TS2009 W/Footnotes
13 And you, being dead in your trespassesc and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, Footnote: cEph 2:1.
14 having blotted out that which was written by hand against us – by the dogmasd – which stood against us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the stake. Footnote: dDogmas - also see Col 2:20 and Eph 2:15.
15 Having stripped the principalities and the authorities, He made a public display of them, having prevailed over them in it.
16 Let no one therefore judge you in eating or in drinking, or in respect of a festival or a new moon or Sabbaths –
17 which are a shadow of what is to come – but the Body of the Messiah.e Footnote: eThe Body of Messiah is to give ruling on all matters, not the outsiders! See also Mat 18:15-20.
18 Let no one deprive you of the prize, one who takes delight in false humility and worship of messengers, taking his stand on what he has not seen, puffed up by his fleshly mind,
19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the Body – nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments – grows with the growth of Elohim.
20 If, then, you died with Messiah from the elementary mattersf of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to dogmas:d Footnotes: dDogmas - also see Col 2:14 and Eph 2:15. fSee Col 2:8 and Gal 4:3 and Gal 4:9.
21 “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle” –
22 which are all to perish with use – according to the commands and teachings of men?g Isa 29:13. Footnote: gSee also Mat 15:8-9, Mar 7:6-7.

In this sense, though we are the body of Messiah, I do also have the body of Messiah which is the volume of the book, Hebrews 10:5-7, meaning the whole of the scripture: or, if you must keep it strictly natural minded, the immediate body of Messiah in this context would therefore be Yakob, a.k.a. James, and the Elders and Brethren, and possibly then Paul here defers to them. It surely doesn't mean that *you* get to judge my Torah observance.

 

[BABerean2]

It surely doesn't mean that *you* get to judge my Torah observance.

You have never kept the Torah during your entire life, because only the Son of God did so.

Anyone else is just pretending to keep it, but they are not fooling the rest of us who know better.

.

 

[daq]

You have never kept the Torah during your entire life, because only the Son of God did so.

Anyone else is just pretending to keep it, but they are not fooling the rest of us who know better.

Yet another misunderstanding. For the most part, where you read keep and obey, for example in the KJV translation of the Torah, and likewise most other English translations, what is actually there is to guard, to hedge about, to protect, to attend to, and to heed, to hearken, to hear with intelligence and understanding, and to do, to perform, and to walk accordingly. And these things, according to the Testimony of the Messiah in the Gospel accounts, are all inward and therefore spiritual, and are not carnal and outward commandments.

Also, again, Paul himself likewise says that the Torah is spiritual in Romans 7:14. As the Master says to the Pharisees, cleanse the inside of the cup first, so that you do not end up like a white-washed tomb, beautiful on the outside, but inside full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness.

Moreover, under the torah-instruction-teaching of liberty, taught in the Testimony of the Messiah in the Gospel accounts, specifically in the Lord's Prayer, I don't have to worry in fear of the Father if and when I make a mistake in my walk so long as my heart is set right by the new Mediator of the renewed covenant and new Minister of the Circumcision. This is yet again why the natural minded man cannot please Elohim just as Paul says: for he cannot understand the supernal and spiritual reasonings and understandings of the Torah-Instruction of the Father because he neither understands the Testimony of the Messiah, nor Paul.

Please review the commandment regarding judging others, in Matthew 7:1-5, and where Paul also agrees, in Romans 2:1-16.

The Father judges no one, but has committed all judgement unto the Son, (John 5:22), but you have decided that you will be my judge?

 

[BABerean2]

The Father judges no one, but has committed all judgement unto the Son, (John 5:22), but you have decided that you will be my judge?

Rom_3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

.

 

[daq]

Rom_3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

.

And what happened to not being "under" the Torah?

Romans 3:19-20 KJV
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 7:14 KJV
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Galatians 3:21-22 KJV
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

"that every mouth may be stopped, and [that] all the world may become guilty before God."

 

[daq]

Romans 10:1-8 TS2009 W/Footnotes
1 Truly brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to Elohim for Yisra’ĕl is for deliverance.
2 For I bear them witness that they have an ardour for Elohim, but not according to knowledge.
3 For not knowing the righteousness of Elohim, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, they did not subject themselves toa the righteousness of Elohim. Footnote: aOr did not obey.
4 For Messiah is the goalb of the ‘Torah unto righteousness’ to everyone who believes. Footnote: bOr end purpose; not termination.
5 For Mosheh writes about the righteousness which is of the Torah, “The man who does these shall live by them.” Lev 18:5.
6 But the righteousness of belief speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who shall ascend into the heavens?’ ” Deu 30:12 – that is, to bring Messiah down; or,
7 “ ‘Who shall descend into the abyss?’ ” – that is, to bring Messiah up from the dead.
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” Deu 30:14 – that is, the word of belief which we are proclaiming:

So the very rhema-word which Paul says he preaches comes straight from the Torah. In fact both of the righteousnesses mentioned in the above are from the Torah: Romans 10:5 refers to Leviticus 18:5, while what follows concerning the righteousness which is of faithfulness-belief is quoted from Deuteronomy 30:12-14.

Once again the background context is critical and cannot be ignored: for we know that Paul is not a cherry picker taking Torah snippets and retooling them to formulate some new doctrine. The Deuteronomy passage makes it very clear that there are at least two ways to read and understand everything in the Torah.

This again is the difference between choosing life or death: and it all depends not only on what is written but how we perceive what we read and hear. There is one way of understanding which is death, and that is the carnal minded natural man way which also Paul says is death. Then there is the spiritual way which is life and peace. And Mosheh admonishes the hearer and the reader to make a choice, for these two ways are indeed the difference between the good message and the bad, and good and evil, and blessing and cursing, and life and death.

Deuteronomy 30:11-19 KJV
11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? [Romans 10:6]
13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? [Romans 10:7]
14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. [Romans 10:8]
15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

The renewed covenant is the good message, (a.k.a. the Gospel). The difference depends on the way in which one reads, sees, hears, and understands what is written: which means that without the Testimony of the Messiah in the Gospel accounts, (and no doubt also the writings of Paul), one cannot understand the Torah in the new-renewed Way.

Luke 18:8a
18a Take heed therefore how you hear:

Not only is it what we hear but how we hear it.

 

[BABerean2]

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Are you one of those under the law of Moses in verse 19 above?

I am not come to Mount Sinai in Hebrews 12:18, but I am come instead to the New Covenant of Mount Zion in Hebrews 12:22-24.

How about you?

.

 

[daq]

Are you one of those under the law of Moses in verse 19 above?

I am not come to Mount Sinai in Hebrews 12:18, but I am come instead to the New Covenant of Mount Zion in Hebrews 12:22-24.

How about you?

.

Through the Torah I died by the Torah so that I might live by Elohim. Now I understand that mount Sinai is the heart and mount Horeb is the mind. So then, with the mind I serve the Torah of Elohim, which is Horeb, and of above: but against the flesh, the Torah of sin to put to death those members of my household which would bring me into bondage to the flesh.

I thank the Father for the Testimony of His Son concerning all these things, and even all things, for I could never have understood these things without that holy Testimony. If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck him out, and cast him out of you: if your hand causes you to stumble, cut him off, and cast him from you: if your foot is always running swiftly into mischief and causing you to stumble, cut him off, and cast him from you. Soul for soul, eye for eye, hand for hand, foot for foot: cut them off before they choke the seed of the Word out of the soil of your heart. Show them no mercy: and rightly divide between good and evil as you study the Word, O porter.

 

[daq]

I am not come to Mount Sinai in Hebrews 12:18, but I am come instead to the New Covenant of Mount Zion in Hebrews 12:22-24.

How about you?

Yes, and what a beautiful fulfillment of the prophecies concerning the Torah-Testimony of the Messiah in the Gospel accounts which expounds and fills up the Torah and the Prophets, even as it is written, that the Torah shall go forth from Zion.

Yeshayah 2:3
3 And many peoples shall come and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of YHWH, to the house of the Elohim of Yakob, and He will teach us His ways, and we will walk in His paths: for out of Tzion shall go forth the Torah, and the Word of YHWH from Yerushalem.

Psalms 48:2, Psalms 50:2, Psalms 74:2, Psalms 125:1, Isaiah 8:18, Joel 2:32.