Paul's question list (ie Walt Brown's question list)

Arikay

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I did say I would answer these questions only after Paul stuck to the subject and supported his claims. Although that has yet to happen (and I don't expect it will) it appears there are some that may actually see these as good questions, so I will answer them anyways.

First of all, these are so sporadic, incomplete and off the wall that I really think it was just an attempt to avoid back up a statement. A method known as shot-gunning, where a large amount of often unrelated questions are asked, and if they can't be answered it is considered a victory. The asker does very little work and tries to force the other person to spend a lot of time. It's not uncommon for people to try and dodge things. Empty claims are all too often made on this board. Second, I don't really think Paul wanted an answer or cares about an answer, but here they are anyway. Third, most of these questions are very outdated and answers can be found in the C&E archive thread or on the internet.


1) Where is the evolutionary evidence for the cosmic egg,

Evolution is biology, not cosmology, it has about as much evidence for the cosmic egg as relativity has for the reason why people get sick.

But, to give an answer, the first moments of the big bang is a large unknown. The cosmic egg idea appears to have been dropped for more reason ideas but so far we don't know.


2) the evidence of transitional fossils between each type of organism,

Here we get into a word game, whether intentional or not. "Type" needs to be defined before any meaningful answer can be given. Without a definition, any answer given could just be dismissed as not being a transitional between "types."
There are plenty of transitional fossils, one of my favorite is the whale transitional where it shows the early whale going from land to sea.


3) the proof of the constancy of light speed.

Special relativity has been tested many times and shown to work, it is based on c being a constant. Observations of c show it to be constant. c doesn't exist in a vacuum (well yes it does, but...) other effects rely on c. If c were different in the past we could observe the effects. For example, the famous E=mc^2 relies on the constant c. If c were increased E would increase as well, and it would mean that nuclear reactions would produce a larger amount of energy.


4) Why would a flagellum develop in bacteria, and what use was it to the bacteria while it was evolving?

A flagellum can help bacteria move around.
How it was of use to bacteria when it was evolving can be found here,
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB200_1.html
and here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_flagella

One example is that in bacteria a non swimming appendage is still useful to help it remain suspended in water or to increase the possibility it will bump into something to eat.


5) Why not answer Darwins fear that the eye would disprove his whole theory with some evidence?

Darwin had no such fear unless you take him out of context.
"Yet reason tells me, that if numerous gradations from a perfect and complex eye to one very imperfect and simple, each grade being useful to its possessor, can be shown to exist; if further, the eye does vary ever so slightly, and the variations be inherited, which is certainly the case; and if any variation or modification in the organ be ever useful to an animal under changing conditions of life, then the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, though insuperable by our imagination, can hardly be considered real. How a nerve comes to be sensitive to light, hardly concerns us more than how life itself first originated; but I may remark that several facts make me suspect that any sensitive nerve may be rendered sensitive to light, and likewise to those coarser vibrations of the air which produce sound. (Darwin 1872, 143-144)
Darwin continues with three more pages describing a sequence of plausible intermediate stages between eyelessness and human eyes, giving examples from existing organisms to show that the intermediates are viable."

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA113_1.html


6) Please point to a strictly natural process that creates information.

Here we have another word game. Without a solid definition of "information" any answer can be waved away as not being able to create, "Information."
To answer the question. Evolution.


7) What evidence is there that information, such as that in DNA, could ever assemble itself?

This seems like a question about abiogenesis, which is not part of evolution.
It's also a whole new topic, but the short answer is that chemistry can form precursors to RNA which can form RNA and then DNA.


8) What about the 4,000 books’ worth of coded information that are in a tiny part of each of your 100 trillion cells?

What about them? What is the point of this question? Throw out big numbers and hope it amazes people into believing creationism?
They were created by evolution.


9) If astronomers received an intelligent signal from some distant galaxy, most people would conclude that it came from an intelligent source. Why then doesn’t the vast information sequence in the DNA molecule of just a bacterium also imply an intelligent source?

Ha. If astronomers received an intelligent signal they would conclude it was intelligent? Wow, no kidding. I bet if I gave you a blue ball you would conclude it was blue.

I assume the question should be, if astronomers received an unknown signal from space how would they conclude it was intelligent? SETI doesn't search for intelligent patterns in radio signals but for certain radio bands that don't occur naturally, and even then it isn't solid evidence it was created by an intelligent source.
Complexity doesn't imply design especially when there is a natural explanation.


10) Then which came first, DNA or the proteins needed by DNA, which can only be produced by DNA?

DNA could have evolved from RNA.


11) If the solar system evolved, why do three planets spin backwards? Why do at least 30 moons revolve backwards?

Why not?
This question isn't even correct. The full original question asks if the big bang started everything spinning (it didn't) then how come planets spin backwards.

Collisions when they were forming could have caused them to spin a different directly. Gravitational forces could cause smaller objects to spin in a different direction. Nothing says all planets must spin the same way.


12) Can you name one reasonable hypothesis on how the moon got there—any hypothesis that is consistent with all the data?

And this has what to do with evolution?
This is still hotly debated in science. The current theory is that the moon formed from impact debris. Of course, a lack of explanation for the moon doesn't mean it was magically popped into existance.


13) Why aren’t students told the scientific reasons for rejecting all the evolutionary theories for the moon’s origin? What about the other 138+ moons in the solar system?

They aren't. Prove it. :)
Students aren't taught the reasons for rejecting "evolutionary theories" for the moons origin because there are none, the theory of evolution has nothing to do with the moon.


14) How could stars evolve?

Again, another question that has nothing to do with the theory of evolution.
Stars could form by matter (mostly hydrogen) clumping together. As it clumps together it's gravity increases and it pulls in more matter and eventually all the matter crushes together to create a fusion reaction that lights the star.


15) Are you aware of all the unreasonable assumptions and contradictory evidence used by those who say the earth is billions of years old?

Haha, what a loaded question. I remember back in 4th grade when kids would go around asking, "Do your parents know you are gay?" are we back in 4th grade?

There are no unreasonable assumptions and contradictory evidence used to show the earth is billions of years old at least once you actually understand the evidence.

Now a question to you,
Are you aware that plagiarism is wrong and against forum rules (even if the page says you are allowed to use the content freely, not citing it is still plagiarism.)
http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/


conclusion
I doubt many will read this and even fewer that really need too. This was mainly posted as Duordi asked for me to answer the questions and there is hope he might learn from it.
It has become my experience that creationist don't bother to read most of the posts here and will bring up the same arguments over and over again no matter how many times they have been shot down.
 

paulrob

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RE Paul's question list (ie Walt Brown's question list)

I produced a response to most of this and posted it, expecting to finish it later. Now I can't find it. I'll look agian in the AM in case its waiting for the moderators. Still haven't figured out how this board works . . .
 
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Arikay

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I look forward to your response. I can easily expand on many if needed, although some there is no where to go, in which case I wouldn't mind if you expanded on them. For example, maybe you can explain how the retrograde rotations of planets is evidence for or against anything in this debate and how exactly it relates to the theory of evolution.
 
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paulrob

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Arikay said:
I look forward to your response. I can easily expand on many if needed, although some there is no where to go, in which case I wouldn't mind if you expanded on them. For example, maybe you can explain how the retrograde rotations of planets is evidence for or against anything in this debate and how exactly it relates to the theory of evolution.

Now, you'll have to understand that I'm just a dumb old teacher, and my facts may be a bit out of date, but it seems to me the old story was that this big bang sent gasses out in all directions ( theoretically) and they began to condense and swirl around, particles gradually coming into contact with each other.

Now if the law of angular momentum applies to swirling gases, it seems logical to assume that as these particles accumulated (compacted) to form celestial bodies, they would accelerate their swirl in the direction they were already turning, not stop their existing rotation, only to begin rotating in the opposite direction.

This is relevant to the argument of evolution because evolution had to have some place in which to evolve.

On the off chance that God has something to do with the creation of the cosmos, it's just possible that he also has something to do with specific kinds creation, as opposed to evolution.
 
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raphael_aa

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paulrob said:
Now, you'll have to understand that I'm just a dumb old teacher, and my facts may be a bit out of date, but it seems to me the old story was that this big bang sent gasses out in all directions ( theoretically) and they began to condense and swirl around, particles gradually coming into contact with each other.

Now if the law of angular momentum applies to swirling gases, it seems logical to assume that as these particles accumulated (compacted) to form celestial bodies, they would accelerate their swirl in the direction they were already turning, not stop their existing rotation, only to begin rotating in the opposite direction.

This is relevant to the argument of evolution because evolution had to have some place in which to evolve.

On the off chance that God has something to do with the creation of the cosmos, it's just possible that he also has something to do with specific kinds creation, as opposed to evolution.

The coservation of angular momentum would, as I see it, apply to the whole cosmos. It doesn't mean that all rotational motion would be in one direction. Due to all kinds of collisions things would be going in all kinds of direction. There is no naturalistic reason for objects not to be able to rotate in any direction, especially after such a chaotic event as the big bang.

As to the swhirls, we see something similar when water goes down the drain. All sorts of eddy structures can spring up, some even rotating in different directions.
 
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Arikay

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If not acted upon by something else, things spinning would tend to stay spinning, but that doesn't mean another object couldn't intereract with it and change the direction it's spinning. In the case of the planets we are talking about retrograde rotation compared to other planets, they orbit the same direction around the sun and the same direction around the gallaxies core. It is possible that a collission or other forces effected their rotation.
That they are rotation the wrong direction doesn't seem to be an argument for or against anything.

The problem is that evolution assumes there is a place to evolve and assumes life (for that matter). Think of it like a car. We don't need to know how to build a car to learn how to drive it, just assume that a car exists. How it came to be, or how the material to build the car came to be, is unrelated to learning how to drive.
Now, in the broad debate of modern science vs creationism, cosmological arguments are valid, but it is incorrect for Mr. Brown to label these arguments as "evolutionist" arguments, since they have nothing to do with the theory of evolution.
 
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philadiddle

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i agree that the planet spinning thing doesn't prove anything but it is interesting. Don't you think something big enough to change the direction of a planets spin would leave a mark? there is no sign of this. just thought i'd point that out.
 
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corvus_corax

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philadiddle said:
i agree that the planet spinning thing doesn't prove anything but it is interesting. Don't you think something big enough to change the direction of a planets spin would leave a mark? there is no sign of this. just thought i'd point that out.
16 years ago, 1 year after I graduated, we had (10 miles away) a nearly stereotypical Prom Night tragedy story.
This guy slammed his car into a rather large dirt embankement. That, combined with heavy rains, resulted in a pretty good sized mudslide (approx 50' wide, and the entire height- 70'- of the embankement).
The entire embankement was permanently altered. IIRC, there were at least 2 trees that came down (not to mention the movement of soil).

Now, 16 years ago, you can't tell anything happened.
The embankement is still there. New trees have sprouted. But, unless you knew the original conditions of the embankement, you could never tell that there was a massive mudslide at that location.

Now, take a planet, shrink it down to a space that fits into the size of the embankement. Now, let's take a (to scale) probe...perhaps the size of a pinhead...and send it to the site of the mudlslide. Is this pinhead probe, upon landing, going to be able to tell us that a mudslide happened at that location 16 years ago?
Most likely not.
Likewise, let's examine the site using a pair of binoculars from 20 miles away (telescope analogy). Are we going to be able to say with certainty that a massive mudslide happened there 16 years ago using our binocular observations?
Most likely not.
Now, multiply that by 3 billion years.

Granted, my little metaphor is broken at several points, and is by no means perfect, but I think (and hope) that it demonstrates the difficulty of determining certain events such as what you bring up.
Hypothesis? Definitely.
Theory (model that fits the evidence)? Quite probably
Proof? Well that comes back to your question and my little metaphor.
 
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philadiddle

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corvus_corax said:
Now, 16 years ago, you can't tell anything happened.
The embankement is still there. New trees have sprouted. But, unless you knew the original conditions of the embankement, you could never tell that there was a massive mudslide at that location.
you didn't think that through. our planet has an atmosphere, with weather erosion and plants. planets spinning backwards don't have this, a meteor impact of that magnitude would still be observable. look out your window at the moon, you can see the craters with the naked eye. The astronauts footprints are probably still there too.
sorry, better luck next time.
 
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corvus_corax

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philadiddle said:
you didn't think that through.
Point 1- I admitted my metaphor was not perfect.
Read it again to get the point.
philadiddle said:
our planet has an atmosphere, with weather erosion and plants.
Great job
philadiddle said:
planets spinning backwards don't have this
VENUS
URANUS
Hmmmmm
Go out and get a book on astronomy.
Read it.
Granted, Pluto has (IIRC) no atmosphere that we've detected, but you really need to read up a bit more before making such assertions.
philadiddle said:
a meteor impact of that magnitude would still be observable.
On venus or uranus?
philadiddle said:
look out your window at the moon, you can see the craters with the naked eye. The astronauts footprints are probably still there too.
IIRC the footprints are still there.
You have yet to make a point.
Your point here is???
philadiddle said:
sorry, better luck next time.
No.
Better luck next time philadiddile
 
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paulrob

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mikeynov said:
No offense, but if somebody starts talking about the 'evolution' of the moon and stars, their science education probably came from an afternoon's reading of their favorite creationist website. Is that really worth replying to? :\

If I changed to word to formation, would you be any happier?

The moon and stars came from something, and according to evolutionary cosmology, they formed over billions of years from coallescing gases and dust.

They had to be formed by some process - perhaps you'd like to suggest a better word?
 
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paulrob said:
If I changed to word to formation, would you be any happier?

Yes, correct terminology is extremely important when talking science

The moon and stars came from something, and according to evolutionary cosmology, they formed over billions of years from coallescing gases and dust.

No, according to cosmology. There is no evolution there, unless you are using a non-scientific definition, and we try to avoid those here.

They had to be formed by some process - perhaps you'd like to suggest a better word?

There is already a word for planet formation. It is called Stellar Mechanics.
 
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paulrob

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Arikay said:
If not acted upon by something else, things spinning would tend to stay spinning, but that doesn't mean another object couldn't intereract with it and change the direction it's spinning. In the case of the planets we are talking about retrograde rotation compared to other planets, they orbit the same direction around the sun and the same direction around the gallaxies core. It is possible that a collission or other forces effected their rotation.

But you oversimplify the issue. What force acted upon the planets to cause them to orbit their respective suns, and to spin at all? This force must be assumed to be constant. It would take an outside force to reverse the rotation, and a collision would hardly seem possible in the first place, and shouldn't be able to reverse rotation in any event.

The BB theory supposes that all matter came from acentral location and exploded outwards, everything in a straight line. and into increasingly less dense space. Collissions therefore would be unlikely (impossible).

Then of course there is the question of what is space, and where did it come from;)

Arikay said:
That they are rotation the wrong direction doesn't seem to be an argument for or against anything.

The problem is that evolution assumes there is a place to evolve and assumes life (for that matter).

Like it assumes a lot of other things? Counterrotation seems to negate the whole possibility of an orderly expansion, condensation and coalescence. Some force had to operate on the counterrotating planets that was not operating on the others.

Arikay said:
Think of it like a car. We don't need to know how to build a car to learn how to drive it, just assume that a car exists. How it came to be, or how the material to build the car came to be, is unrelated to learning how to drive.
Now, in the broad debate of modern science vs creationism, cosmological arguments are valid, but it is incorrect for Mr. Brown to label these arguments as "evolutionist" arguments, since they have nothing to do with the theory of evolution.

A car is a good example. Put a magnet into a junkyard and if you leabve it there long enough, you'll get a car. :thumbsup:

A car needs intelligence. A universe needs intelligence. You'e right in the strictest sense about evolution assuming the universe to be in existance already, but in the common sense, there is no clear distinction.

It was supposedly the cooling of this earth, along with the other cosmic systems that generated the conditions for essential amino acid precipitation, producing life.

In that sense, the two are inseparable.
 
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paulrob said:
...according to evolutionary cosmology, .....
emotlol3lq.gif
 
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JGMEERT

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paulrob said:
But you oversimplify the issue. What force acted upon the planets to cause them to orbit their respective suns, and to spin at all? This force must be assumed to be constant. It would take an outside force to reverse the rotation, and a collision would hardly seem possible in the first place, and shouldn't be able to reverse rotation in any event.

JM: SO do you ascribe to Henry Morris' hypothesis that craters are the result of the battle between the devil and the angels?

The BB theory supposes that all matter came from acentral location and exploded outwards, everything in a straight line. and into increasingly less dense space. Collissions therefore would be unlikely (impossible).

JM: Oh dear, who/what taught you this? You have a fundamental misunderstanding of the big bang confirmed by your later statement regarding the origin of space. There is no central location, there is no 'straight' line. Ever hear of gravity? It's all the rage with teenagers these days.

Cheers

Joe Meert
 
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caravelair

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paulrob said:
The BB theory supposes that all matter came from acentral location and exploded outwards, everything in a straight line. and into increasingly less dense space.

no it does not. according to the big bang, matter has always been uniformly distrubuted throughout space. it is space itself that expands, not matter expanding through space that is already there.

many of your problems seem to be coming from this misconception of yours. also, you seem to be ignoring gravity, which is responsible for the formation of solar systems and planets, and is what determines their relative motions.
 
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Physics_guy

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The BB theory supposes that all matter came from acentral location and exploded outwards, everything in a straight line. and into increasingly less dense space. Collissions therefore would be unlikely (impossible).

Please say you aren't a physics teacher if you are so confused as to say this about Big Bang Cosmology!

Though I must admit your lack of understanding of the Law of Conservation of Angular Momentum is probably a graver sin for a teacher.
 
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