Paul's presents Genesis as literal and not parable.

SolomonVII · May 13, 2017

Since as Christians we accept that "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness", the question of whether or not any passage of the OT is based in history or not is uninteresting. The genre of any particular story of the Bible is irrelevant to the spiritual lessons imparted by any particular passage in question.
We can all discuss and argue about what the actual genre of any passage of the bible actually is, whether it is historical non-fiction, or wisdom literary work, but that discussion is already outside of a discussion of the work. That kind of discussion is a scientific inquiry and not a religious discussion at all. It is a discussion about context rather than content.

rjs330 · May 13, 2017

Speedwell said:
Are you really claiming that none of the Fathers found figurative meaning in those stories?

No of course not. Just because it is history does not mean you cannot glean anything from it. There was and still is typology that is thought to be in the histories. But it just because that is so doesn't make them any less of history. It simply means people find meaning in the histories.

rjs330 · May 13, 2017

Speedwell said:
In fact, scripture does not tell us very much at all about the genre of those stories. And, of course, you will consider no extra-biblical information on the point whatsoever.

Then what do you think accounts for the belligerence and hostility of some of your coreligionists on the point? Are they jealous?

Jealousy? I doubt that. It's incredulous passion that someone could doubt God's word on creation yet believe God's word on salvation. It appears to be double mindedness a lack of faith. As the Bible says that without faith it is impossible to please God. Yet they may misunderstand that faith in Christ is separate from faith in the histories. There were many believers of the Greeks and Romans who probably had no knowledge of the histories yet they believed to salvation. Thus acknowledging the history of Genesis is not a requirement otherwise only those that new and acknowledged would be saved. But there is no scriptures stating that.

Speedwell · May 13, 2017

rjs330 said:
Jealousy? I doubt that. It's incredulous passion that someone could doubt God's word on creation yet believe God's word on salvation. It appears to be double mindedness a lack of faith. As the Bible says that without faith it is impossible to please God. Yet they may misunderstand that faith in Christ is separate from faith in the histories. There were many believers of the Greeks and Romans who probably had no knowledge of the histories yet they believed to salvation. Thus acknowledging the history of Genesis is not a requirement otherwise only those that new and acknowledged would be saved. But there is no scriptures stating that.

Part of it is simply our different view of the Bible. It is Sacred Tradition, not the Bible, which guarantees the truth of the Cross to me. Consequently, the notion that we must accept Genesis as literal history because otherwise the Gospels might not be seems silly to me.

Aman777 · May 13, 2017

SolomonVII said:
Yes. Of course.

Good dodge but that does not tell us how to get to heaven. Do you know?

Speedwell · May 13, 2017

Aman777 said:
Good dodge but that does not tell us how to get to heaven. Do you know?

We all know. This is a Christians-only forum.

Aman777 · May 13, 2017

Speedwell said:
Part of it is simply our different view of the Bible. It is Sacred Tradition, not the Bible, which guarantees the truth of the Cross to me. Consequently, the notion that we must accept Genesis as literal history because otherwise the Gospels might not be seems silly to me.

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Aman777 · May 13, 2017

Speedwell said:
We all know. This is a Christians-only forum.

Since there are more than 30k denominations, what does your group teach about HOW to get to Heaven? IF you know, then post it.

Speedwell · May 13, 2017

Aman777 said:
Since there are more than 30k denominations, what does your group teach about HOW to get to Heaven? IF you know, then post it.

Pooh! I belong to an ancient denomination with more than 85 million members worldwide. It's beliefs are well known. If I thought you were serious I would post them again, but you are a creationist; you think you belong to the only real true version of Christianity and are only interested in the beliefs of other kinds of Christians for the purpose of condemning them.

Aman777 · May 13, 2017

Speedwell said:
Pooh! I belong to an ancient denomination with more than 85 million members worldwide. It's beliefs are well known. If I thought you were serious I would post them again, but you are a creationist; you think you belong to the only real true version of Christianity and are only interested in the beliefs of other kinds of Christians for the purpose of condemning them.

Not so, since I ask that same question all the time and watch as people who are supposed to know, dodge. I wonder what they say to someone who is interested in becoming a Christian....or getting to Heaven. God Bless you

Speedwell · May 13, 2017

Aman777 said:
Not so, since I ask that same question all the time and watch as people who are supposed to know, dodge. I wonder what they say to someone who is interested in becoming a Christian....or getting to Heaven. God Bless you

Something more kindly than one ever expects from a creationist. Sincere enquirers are always welcomed.

rjs330 · May 13, 2017

Aman777 said:
Since there are more than 30k denominations, what does your group teach about HOW to get to Heaven? IF you know, then post it.

Aman Speed knows very well what the Bible teaches about salvation. He understands it. He also believes in church traditions in addition to scripture. I know he is quite capable of defending himself, but I say this to support him.

If you have read my posts then you know I am a staunch believer and defender of literal historical Genesis. But I also do not believe it right to challenge another salvation based upon it. If there is a scripture that claims so I don't know it.

KWCrazy · May 13, 2017

Speedwell said:
Something more kindly than one ever expects from a creationist. Sincere enquirers are always welcomed.

Jesus is a creationist. Do you hold Him in the same disdain?

Aman777 · May 13, 2017

rjs330 said:
Aman Speed knows very well what the Bible teaches about salvation. He understands it. He also believes in church traditions in addition to scripture. I know he is quite capable of defending himself, but I say this to support him.

If you have read my posts then you know I am a staunch believer and defender of literal historical Genesis. But I also do not believe it right to challenge another salvation based upon it. If there is a scripture that claims so I don't know it.

Who has challenged anyone? I simply asked HOW to get to Heaven. There is but one way Scripturally so why are people afraid to tell us? I'm beginning to think that the way has been lost in the rules and regulations of each religion/belief/denomination.

SolomonVII · May 13, 2017

Aman777 said:
Good dodge but that does not tell us how to get to heaven. Do you know?

I already said I did know, but I am not your trained seal, jumping through hoops and otherwise answering random questions that have zero relevance to what I have already posted, and negative relevance to the theme of the thread itself.
Please get back on topic please.

Speedwell · May 14, 2017

KWCrazy said:
Jesus is a creationist. Do you hold Him in the same disdain?

I don't care whether you're a creationist or not. I certainly wouldn't disdain you for it. It's the attitude I'm trying to figure out.

Speedwell · May 14, 2017

Aman777 said:
Who has challenged anyone? I simply asked HOW to get to Heaven. There is but one way Scripturally so why are people afraid to tell us? I'm beginning to think that the way has been lost in the rules and regulations of each religion/belief/denomination.

No one is "afraid" to answer your condescending questions.

rjs330 · May 14, 2017

Aman777 said:
Who has challenged anyone? I simply asked HOW to get to Heaven. There is but one way Scripturally so why are people afraid to tell us? I'm beginning to think that the way has been lost in the rules and regulations of each religion/belief/denomination.

I get your point. There is only one way and there are denominations that don't really teach that very strongly. But sometimes when we talk to fellow believers or those that say they are we can come across condescending when we ask the question in a thread such as this. It leads one to believe we are challenging their salvation belief just because they don't believe in literal historical Genesis. Quite frankly I have seen people do exactly that. When that happens you become a bit sensitive to questions of that nature.

The only challenge we as believers can give in another when it comes to our faith is challenging their lifestyle. Are they living for Jesus? Are they living in sin? They Bible talks about that a lot. But it never says anything about the fact that we might not have real salvation if we don't believe in literal historical Genesis.

I do understand the incredulity of course. I don't get it when believers will believe whole heartedly in one part of the Bible but dismiss others. That is why I am here. To challenge that. Not because of their salvation but because it diminishes the word of God and it's authority as truth. Not just to us but to the world as well.

Speedwell · May 14, 2017

rjs330 said:
I do understand the incredulity of course. I don't get it when believers will believe whole heartedly in one part of the Bible but dismiss others. That is why I am here. To challenge that. Not because of their salvation but because it diminishes the word of God and it's authority as truth. Not just to us but to the world as well.

Thank you for your understanding. Just try to keep in mind when you are explaining your position on scripture that the feelings of incredulity and the belief that God's word is diminished are mutual. I think you do understand that, which is why you are the only one of the lot who is always civil.

Aman777 · May 14, 2017

SolomonVII said:
I already said I did know, but I am not your trained seal, jumping through hoops and otherwise answering random questions that have zero relevance to what I have already posted, and negative relevance to the theme of the thread itself.
Please get back on topic please.

My point is simple. Christians tell others how to get to heaven. How else can they produce fruit? To avoid the question, to me, is the sin of omission....or...they just don't know. They can only refer them to the Pastor. Amen?

Paul's presents Genesis as literal and not parable.

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