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Paul's limited understanding!

Strong in Him

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Yes, he was supposed to be 'was', but he claimed to be 'is'! According to his own admission, he was a crafty person. No doubt he was a manipulator to push his agenda.

It could be though that he kept his title even though he wasn't using it any more.
I am a Methodist preacher. I did not stop being a Methodist preacher when I moved to the Anglican church - it's just that they didn't recognise it. When I returned to the Methodist church, I was reinstated and recognised as a preacher again.

No doubt he was a manipulator to push his agenda.

I don't believe that.
His agenda, before he met Christ, was to persecute the church, put Christians in prison and to death and promote Judaism. His agenda after he met Christ was to preach Christ - which is what he did, and for which he suffered and was eventually killed.
 
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HebrewVaquero

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If you want to eat meat that you know has been sacrificed to idols; go ahead. It's not wrong, UNLESS you believe it is wrong but are doing it because everyone else is, or unless you are with someone who believes it is wrong and doing it would hurt their faith.
That's NOT what Jesus said in Revelation 2:14 AFTER the cross.
 
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Strong in Him

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He was prepared for anything to push his agenda.

What was "his agenda"?

He couldn't turn back!

Of course he could have done - if he'd wanted to. If he'd wanted an easy life, or to save his life, he could have rejected the Gospel, and his experience, and embraced Judaism again.

Paul was the first heretic in Christianity!

Preaching God, the Gospel, Jesus and the cross cannot be heresy. Apart from which, the apostles accepted him and Peter called him a dear brother - what does that say about them in that case?
 
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HebrewVaquero

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"If you want to eat meat that you know has been sacrificed to idols; go ahead. It's not wrong, UNLESS you believe it is wrong but are doing it because everyone else is, or unless you are with someone who believes it is wrong and doing it would hurt their faith."

That's NOT what Jesus said in Revelation 2:14 AFTER the cross.
*crickets*
 
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Wgw

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No point in reading into the words to defend the meaningless ritual established by Paul who was not even a witness in the Last Supper!
Churches always prefer easy traditions rather than understanding the spiritual significance that chosen apostles understood.

Frankly, since you also weren't a witness to the last supper, I'd take St. Paul's word over yours, mate.
 
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Strong in Him

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That's NOT what Jesus said in Revelation 2:14 AFTER the cross.

He told the church at Pergamum that they had people among them who held to the teaching of Balaam.
In the OT eating foods offered to idols was a sin. Balaam had enticed - or tricked - people into sinning by eating such food and committing sexual immorality. The church at Pergamum had people who agreed with this teaching - presumably that it is ok to entice others to sin.
Paul actually said the opposite. He said that if eating food that has been offered to an idol - which is nothing - causes someone to sin, or hurts their faith, they shouldn't do it. He correctly said that the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and

Jesus didn't comment on food offered to idols but he did say that nothing that goes into a person's mouth can make them unclean.
 
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Wgw

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I take it this left you speechless?

No, I was well aware of it; note my article criticizing the JWO chap for dishonestly smearing St. Paul for quoting Epimenides. I am thoroughly untroubled by St, Paul having a classical education and employing it in his epistles; I do the same thing as a matter of course, so.
 
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HebrewVaquero

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He told the church at Pergamum that they had people among them who held to the teaching of Balaam.
In the OT eating foods offered to idols was a sin. Balaam had enticed - or tricked - people into sinning by eating such food and committing sexual immorality. The church at Pergamum had people who agreed with this teaching - presumably that it is ok to entice others to sin.
Paul actually said the opposite. He said that if eating food that has been offered to an idol - which is nothing - causes someone to sin, or hurts their faith, they shouldn't do it. He correctly said that the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and

Jesus didn't comment on food offered to idols but he did say that nothing that goes into a person's mouth can make them unclean.

So if we follow this train of thought; Jesus didn't care about eating foods offered to idols and sexual immorality, but He only cared about Christians enticing others to sin???

Wow! I've seen similar gymnastic contortions by those who attempt to reconcile homosexuality with scripture.
 
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Strong in Him

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So if we follow this train of thought; Jesus didn't care about eating foods offered to idols and sexual immorality, but He only cared about Christians enticing others to sin???.

Of course not, sorry I didn't explain properly.

In the OT, eating food offered to idols was a sin - even making, or tolerating, idols was against the commandments, and the reason why Israel had been sent into exile. Balaam was apparently enticing people to break God's law and commit this sin.
Jesus did not teach that eating food offered to idols was wrong, and he did not say that Christians had to continue to obey the Jewish law. That's what I meant by that. Apart from which, I have not studied Revelation and am not sure what that passage is referring to.

Jesus said that if anyone caused someone else to sin, it would be better to tie a millstone around their neck and throw them into the sea. He also told a woman caught in the act of adultery to go and sin no more. So of course he cared that people shouldn't do it.

Wow! I've seen similar gymnastic contortions by those who attempt to reconcile homosexuality with scripture.

If you didn't understand what I was saying, why not ask me to clarify instead of implying that I am contorting Scripture?
 
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HebrewVaquero

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Which play and by whom?
Kicks Against the Pricks
Euripides : "kicks against the pricks" (Euripides, Bacchae.)

Aeschylus:. "kicks against the pricks." (Aeschylus, Agamemnon 1624.)

Acts 26:13 "kicks against the pricks" (Luke quoting Paul's vision account)

Note on Euripides: The context is that Dionysus discards his divine nature and walks in the human world disguised…Dionysus, the god disguised in human form, tells him that his efforts to resist the new movement will be completely worthless; he is not contending against flesh and blood, but against a god. “You are mortal, he is a god. If I were you, I would control my rage and sacrifice to him, rather than kick against the pricks” [From Euripides, The Bacchae]. Source:


A. N. Wilson, Paul:The Mind of the Apostle (W. W. Norton & Co., N.Y., 1997), pp. 75-76.

http://www.jesuswordsonly.com/recommendedreading/300-pagan-influences-in-writings-of-paul.html
 
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HebrewVaquero

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Of course not, sorry I didn't explain properly.

In the OT, eating food offered to idols was a sin - even making, or tolerating, idols was against the commandments, and the reason why Israel had been sent into exile. Balaam was apparently enticing people to break God's law and commit this sin.
Jesus did not teach that eating food offered to idols was wrong, and he did not say that Christians had to continue to obey the Jewish law. That's what I meant by that. Apart from which, I have not studied Revelation and am not sure what that passage is referring to.

Jesus said that if anyone caused someone else to sin, it would be better to tie a millstone around their neck and throw them into the sea. He also told a woman caught in the act of adultery to go and sin no more. So of course he cared that people shouldn't do it.



If you didn't understand what I was saying, why not ask me to clarify instead of implying that I am contorting Scripture?
I kinda more than implied, your right, my apologies.
We are indirect contradiction, however there is no judgement as you have fairly posted.

I see Jesus teaching Torah (which includes specifically meat sacrificed to idols).

I see Jesus after the cross affriming Torah specifically in regards to eating meat sacrificed to idols.

I see Paul saying the Torah is annulled and it is okay to eat meat sacrificed to idols if no one is looking.

What are we to make of this?
Who are you going to believe?
I choose the Messiah's words!

Deut 18:18-19
‘I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. 19‘It shall come about that whoever will not listen to My words which he shall speak in My name, I Myself will require itof him.
 
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Righttruth

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Act 13:45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.
Act 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

I think that pretty much says why, don't you?

Prophets and servants of Jesus never turn back on the task entrusted to them by Jesus no matter what. Otherwise, they are called turncoats!
 
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Righttruth

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Oh? And what Scripture do you have to say that there cannot be more apostles? Yes, the 12 were chosen to judge the 12 tribes- but what about the rest of the world, the Gentiles that God himself directed Peter to begin baptizing in the name of his Son?

Sorry, you are mixing up issues. Responsibility to baptize is nothing to do with the number 12! To begin with God chose Abraham. Are you questioning that too?

Uh. Proof please? As in, Scripture stating as such.

Preaching of Jesus is the proof. What more you need?

Some excerpts show casing your point would be nice.

Excerpts from the book "Did Saint Paul Deviate From The Gospel":-

Paul appears to stumble right from the start when it comes to understanding the preaching of Jesus since he was not a part of the earthly ministry of Jesus! Whatever preaching Jesus made was conveyed to him by Peter—to what extent we cannot be sure—when he stayed with Peter after his conversion. This is seen in his letter to Galatians: “Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days” (Galatians 1:18). Paul started claiming the apostleship without understanding the spiritual significance of the number 12 that Jesus used to choose 12 apostles to begin with for His ministry on earth. The number 12 represented the twelve tribes related to Jacob. The 12 apostles meant to judge them as Jesus declared, “Verily I say unto you, that ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel” (Matthew 19:28). Therefore, there was no question of Paul becoming a 13th apostle unless he had plans to have his own tribe extra which was unlikely since he remained single! Also Peter clearly defined who should be selected as an apostle after Judas Iscariot committed suicide. He said, “For it is written in the book of Psalms, let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take. Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.”

And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, that he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place. And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles (Acts 1:20-26). Many ‘pick-and-choose’ Pauline Christians do not want to accept this replacement of Matthias for Judas Iscariot by Peter only because they want to rebut the succession claim of spiritual authority from Peter by Roman Catholic Popes! They tend to argue that Peter acted without the guidance of the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit was given first during the Pentecost. It only proves that they are ignorant of the blessing of Jesus on the ten apostles breathing them the Holy Spirit after His resurrection as can be seen from this verse: “And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, receive ye the Holy Ghost” ( John 20:22). Peter wanted the group to be completed with 12 persons in the absence of Judas, who betrayed Jesus, before starting on any work related to sharing of the Gospel and baptizing the new believers! Paul did not qualify any of the conditions the great apostle Peter stipulated before choosing Mathias! James who took up the leadership of Jerusalem Church did not claim to be an apostle in his letter even though Paul and Luke appear to consider him to be an apostle!

Obviously, both missed out the spiritual significance of the number 12. Same thing holds good in case of Jude. Even as secular halfbrother, he did not claim apostleship in his letter. In contrast, Paul repeatedly self-claimed himself to be an apostle going by the common understanding of the word in a secular world! Both Luke and Paul, the rank outsiders, tend to call some others also as apostles against the spirit behind in calling of 12 apostles by Jesus! From the following verse one can see that Luke who wrote the book of Acts considered Barnabas and Paul as apostles too: “Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out” (Acts 14:14); and Paul considered James as an apostle along with him: “But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord’s brother” (Galatians 1:19). However, the apostle John who was dear to Jesus made clear cut clarification after Paul had created confusion in apostleship by his later book of Revelation: “ I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars” (Revelation 2:2). It is further endorsed by the following verse that fixes the number 12, no more, no less! “And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb” (Revelation 21:14).

The problem that Paul had was that he wanted the authority of apostleship because he did not get proper reception and hearing to his preaching about Jesus Christ when he was preaching in Arabia immediately after conversion and later after meeting the apostles through Barnabas. Nothing has been recorded of his preaching during that period. But only when Paul got the support of the apostles in Jerusalem and accompanied Barnabas in his first missionary journey along with Mark, he was able to realize the encouraging results! Without this support, probably, Paul’s work would have become any other missionary work of repute mentionable at best or totally forgotten and unrecorded at worst! It would not have brought him the importance he generated with this support and recognition, leading to complete domination in the Christendom right from the beginning! Paul with his Pharisaic background and scholarship mixed with shrewdness sensed his superiority in knowledge in the OT writings compared to semi-literate and gentle minded Barnabas and Mark in their first mission work. Consequently, he sets his own terms for second missionary journey, unbecoming of a Christian! Probably, Mark might have sensed Paul’s domineering spirit during their mission, and that might have resulted in Mark deciding to quit the mission when half way through. However, Barnabas, with his humility of giving Mark another chance as any believing Christian would do, was opposed by Paul, who never knew compassionate and forgiving Jesus personally well, and, consequently, he initiates the first division in the Jerusalem Church.

“And Barnabas determined to take with them John, whose surname was Mark,” and “and the contention was so sharp between them, that they departed asunder one from the other: and so Barnabas took Mark, and sailed unto Cyprus” (Acts 15:37, 39). Unfortunately, this has set a trend in all Paul believing groups creating divisions after divisions! Basically, it has become a practice of picking a verse from Paul and parting ways! Of course, the self-claim of apostleship was questioned during his ministry. For that reason, he kept on driving home his claim forcibly time and again that can be seen by a couple of these verses: “Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are not ye my work in the Lord?” and “if I be not an apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to you: for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord” (1 Corinthians 9:1&2). These claims of apostleship abound in his letters written away from the place to which they were addressed to. We do not know what type of answers he gave when he was questioned when he was available in person! The examples are: “Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?” (1 Corinthians 9:5); “for I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office” (Romans 11:13); and “(For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles)” (Galatians 2:8). .............

Um. Yes he did.

2nd Peter 3:16

The authorship of 2nd Peter is questioned. Even otherwise, that is your biased interpretation.
 
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Righttruth

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It could be though that he kept his title even though he wasn't using it any more.
I am a Methodist preacher. I did not stop being a Methodist preacher when I moved to the Anglican church - it's just that they didn't recognise it. When I returned to the Methodist church, I was reinstated and recognised as a preacher again.

Fundamentally you are a believer in Christ. These divisions are the worst of legacy of Paul who started the first division in Jerusalem Church. Satan divides, Jesus unites!

I don't believe that.
His agenda, before he met Christ, was to persecute the church, put Christians in prison and to death and promote Judaism. His agenda after he met Christ was to preach Christ - which is what he did, and for which he suffered and was eventually killed.

Setting his own terms and conditions to preach is not obedience to Christ!
 
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Righttruth

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What was "his agenda"?

To usurp the authority and dominate the chosen apostles!

Of course he could have done - if he'd wanted to. If he'd wanted an easy life, or to save his life, he could have rejected the Gospel, and his experience, and embraced Judaism again.

Authority sucks, but he enjoyed it at the cost of the profound essence of the Gospel!

Preaching God, the Gospel, Jesus and the cross cannot be heresy. Apart from which, the apostles accepted him and Peter called him a dear brother - what does that say about them in that case?

Catholics call Protestants heretics! Peter did not call him an apostle. John makes it clear later Paul's true colors!
 
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