Paul, the False Apostle: Rebuttal of Point 3

God sent angels to tell Abraham that his wife would bear a child. God didn't tell Abraham this himself, he had angels tell Abraham that information. God spoke to the children of Israel through Joseph in a dream he gave Joseph. God didn't tell the children of Israel himself that Joseph would rule over them. God speaks through his angels and his saints, he doesn't always speak directly to us.

acts. 18.24 But, a certain Jew, Apollos by name, an Alexandrian by birth, a learned man, came down to Ephesus, being, mighty, in the Scriptures. 25 The same, had been orally taught the way of the Lord, and, being fervent in his spirit, began speaking and teaching accurately, the things concerning Jesus,--properly knowing, only the immersion of John. 26 The same, also began speaking boldly in the synagogue; and Priscilla and Aquila, hearing him, took him unto them, and, more accurately, expounded unto him the way of God.(Rotherham)

Apollos had to be taught by Priscilla and Aquila, God used Priscilla and Aquila to teach Apollos, God didn't teach Apollos directly. Because God likes to use his angels and his saints. We all have purposes and ways the Lord uses us. The body of Christ is made up of many members, and God uses them all. I find personally that God at times reveals things to me that he doesn't to others, and likewise God reveals things to others that he doesn't reveal to me. God wants his church, the body of Christ to be one, not a bunch of people all with their own separate ideas about everything. If God revealed everything a person needed to know about everything in the bible, and never used anyone else to do that, that person would become so infatuated with himself that he would be unbearably stuck up. That's another reason God doesn't reveal everything about the bible to us, and requires us to be a part of the body of Christ and open to hearing what others have to say. The bible says knowledge puffeth up. and it does. That's why it's nice to have a lowly peon in a church reveal something to an intellectual know it all, to keep that person humble.

2ducklow said:

God sent angels to tell Abraham that his wife would bear a child. God didn't tell Abraham this himself, he had angels tell Abraham that information. God spoke to the children of Israel through Joseph in a dream he gave Joseph. God didn't tell the children of Israel himself that Joseph would rule over them. God speaks through his angels and his saints, he doesn't always speak directly to us.

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Not my belief.

Angels have their purpose, but not to speak for the Father. Only one is the truth and the way, and became flesh to speak it.

John 8
39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.


Verse 40 is a comment by Christ that states that he was bringing the truth FROM God, and that Abraham did not. Abraham, at best, followed the Holy Spirit best he could. And through time, Christ said he wasn't recognized because their belief staggered way off course of what little they had.

But Christ says:
John 10
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

And John 16
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

We are guided into truth. It doesn't say what it/'we read (only) but whatever the Spirit hears, it will speak. That would mean it is listening to someone. And Christ said at one point that he didn't know the day and time of his coming. So John 16:13 sounds like the Father communing through the Spirit. A connection not possible before Christ came.

Just my thoughts.

TorahMan said:

Good point. I looked up the definition of diligent, which is "showing care and effort". It certainly is achievable with only modest effort. It certainly does not mean perfection.

I used to be one of the pack which claims that the law is impossible, it's a curse, you lose your salvation, etc etc. But it wasn't until I tried it out that I discovered the naysayers have no idea what they're talking about.

The law is easy, nothing much to remember at all. Much easier than being in the Pauline prison, with all its rules and expectations. And best of all, I can relate to Yeshua one-on-one, without Paul sticking his nose in and twisting Yeshua's words to assign meanings which He never intended.

Life is good!

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The Catholics would kill the Judaizing Christians and burn their scriptures. Then they would replace the scriptures with their own versions. If what is written does not agree with Orthodox Judaism then you know that there is a problem. That is one way to find the truth.

CherubRam said:

The Catholics would kill the Judaizing Christians and burn their scriptures. Then they would replace the scriptures with their own versions. If what is written does not agree with Orthodox Judaism then you know that there is a problem. That is one way to find the truth.

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This would be a good time to have some evidence to what you say. Where is yours?

CherubRam said:

The Catholics would kill the Judaizing Christians and burn their scriptures. Then they would replace the scriptures with their own versions. If what is written does not agree with Orthodox Judaism then you know that there is a problem. That is one way to find the truth.

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No, the Catholics killed anyone who followed the original 'way', which means keeping the Sabbath, obeying the food law, and honouring the holy days. These were people who rejected Paul and his writings, which comprised the majority of believers in those days. Are you aware that Paul's letters weren't even added to the canon until 397 AD, nearly a century after the RCC was established?

The Judaizers were ancient history, because the issue of circumcision had been settled at the Jerusalem Council. The Judaizers were not pushing anything except mandatory circumcision, which was a Jewish ruse to exclude Gentiles from being saved. James rightly put an end to that.

I don't understand your reference to Orthodox Judaism. Orthodox Jews follow the Talmud, which seeks to negate the Torah. It is also utterly blasphemous towards Yeshua.

As for me, I attempt to follow the 'way', as practised by the original apostolic church. Perfectly easy, no big deal.

I do agree that the Catholics replaced the original writings with their own modified versions. So much valuable history lost! Can you provide any further references for this?

TorahMan

TorahMan said:

. . . . I do agree that the Catholics replaced the original writings with their own modified versions. So much valuable history lost! Can you provide any further references for this?

TorahMan

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Repeating this false accusation over and over does not make it true and it calls God a liar. God's word did not vanish from the earth to be replaced by modifed or altered versions! I would be happy to review any credible, verifiable, historical evidence you might provide.

Phantasman said:

Not my belief.

Angels have their purpose, but not to speak for the Father. Only one is the truth and the way, and became flesh to speak it.

John 8
39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.


Verse 40 is a comment by Christ that states that he was bringing the truth FROM God, and that Abraham did not. Abraham, at best, followed the Holy Spirit best he could. And through time, Christ said he wasn't recognized because their belief staggered way off course of what little they had.

But Christ says:
John 10
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

And John 16
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

We are guided into truth. It doesn't say what it/'we read (only) but whatever the Spirit hears, it will speak. That would mean it is listening to someone. And Christ said at one point that he didn't know the day and time of his coming. So John 16:13 sounds like the Father communing through the Spirit. A connection not possible before Christ came.

Just my thoughts.

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My experience is that the Holy Spirit speaks to me and guides me through things other people say and teach, through my own personal study, and through my own personal prayer about stuff.

Anyone else notice how every nitch sect of believers has their own version of the persecutions that the early church faced? Everyone fills it in with people who carried their doctrine being the ones getting persecuted.

Phantasman said:

Not my belief.

Angels have their purpose, but not to speak for the Father. Only one is the truth and the way, and became flesh to speak it.

:

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and disobedience received a just recompense of reward.”

• Hebrews 2:2


And Paul had further to say,


“Wherefore then serves the Law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by ANGELS in the hand of a mediator”

• Galatians 3:19


But wait! In spite of what the Jewish priest/historian Josephus, the evangelist Stephen and the apostle Paul had to say, are we not informed in the Book of Exodus that it was God (Elohim in Hebrew) who gave the Law to Moses? Yes, indeed. But what is not recognized by many people is that the word “Elohim” can refer also to ANGELS.

In Psalm 97:7 the word “gods” is Elohim and in Hebrews 1:6 Paul said it referred to angels

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Chapter 2: The Law Was Given By Angels

and

17 The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels:
the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place.

God is among his angels. Angels don't come alone to us.

netzarim said:

If you claim Paul was a delegate to the twelve, did Paul teach the Gentiles to observe everything Messiah taught His Jewish apostles to observe, as Messiah commanded?

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Messiah told his disciples, who were Jewish, to observe his commandments and to tell others to do so, he did not teach them to no longer act as Jews with their observances. Paul did not do so either, as the apostles in Jerusalem had instructed, I can see that he would have taught those things that were passed on through the apostles, and not instruct gentiles who became believers to become Jewish with circumcision and observances.

As I said early on, if Paul taught to do otherwise than what Christ, the Messiah, taught, Paul would be wrong.

Originally Posted by netzarim

I do not see God as demanding perfect observance of His commandments ... He only requires diligent observation. Diligent observation of those commandments which apply to us is not impossible for faithful believers. For example, "Ye shall diligently keep the commandments of the LORD your God, and his testimonies, and his statutes, which he hath commanded thee." Deu 6:17 or "Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently." Psa 119:4
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TorahMan said:

Good point. I looked up the definition of diligent, which is "showing care and effort". It certainly is achievable with only modest effort. It certainly does not mean perfection.

I used to be one of the pack which claims that the law is impossible, it's a curse, you lose your salvation, etc etc. But it wasn't until I tried it out that I discovered the naysayers have no idea what they're talking about.

The law is easy, nothing much to remember at all. Much easier than being in the Pauline prison, with all its rules and expectations. And best of all, I can relate to Yeshua one-on-one, without Paul sticking his nose in and twisting Yeshua's words to assign meanings which He never intended.

Life is good!

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The only ones I see twisting scriptures are these characters:

Matthew 22:29
Jesus answered and said unto them, "Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God".

John 5:39
"Ye are searching the Writings that ye are seeming in them Life age-during to be having, and those are the ones-testifying about Me".

2 Peter 3:15
and the long-suffering of our Lord count ye salvation, according as also our beloved brother Paul--according to the wisdom given to him--did write to you
16 As also in all the letters speaking in them about these-things, in which is difficult-to-understand,
whoany which the unlearned and unsteadfast are wresting/twisting as also the rests of Writings toward the own of them destruction/apwleian <684>

And those same ones tried to kill both Jesus and Paul:

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary
JESUS vs the corrupt murderous Judean rulers

Matthew 26:4
and they consulted together that they might take Jesus by guile and kill [him],

Acts 23:14
Who any toward coming to the Chief-priests and to the Elders say "to-anathema we anathematize ourselves of no yet nothing to taste till of which we may be killing Paul ."




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Yes, Paul is appealing and anti-Paul is appalling.

netzarim said:

Who were the false, evil, lying "apostles" that were judged and righteously rejected in Ephesus (the capital of the Roman province of Asia, where all 7 Revelation churches were located near) in Revelation 2:2?

Is there a record of any "apostle" being rejected in Asia? Hint: 2Tim 1:15.

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Ironice you should bring that up as I had a discussion thread on the exact verse.
Unfortunately it fizzled out, but it is still open

http://www.christianforums.com/t7571967/

2 Tim 1:15 All of Asia turn away from Paul

LittleLambofJesus said:

I find this verse rather interesting.
Paul says here that ALL those in Asia had turned from him! Is that the only geographical area that totally "rejected" Paul?

NKJV) 2 Timothy 1:15
This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me, among whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.

Reve 1:11 also shows that all the 7 assemblies are in Asia....Interesting


Revelation 1:11
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last;' and `What thou dost see, write in a scroll and send to the seven assemblies that [are] in Asia;
to Ephesus, and to Smyrna, and to Pergamos, and to Thyatira, and to Sardis, and to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.

Revelation 2:2
I have seen the works of thee and the labour of thee and the endurance of thee, and that not thou are able to bear evils,
and thou test/try the ones saying themselves apostles are and not they are, and thou found them false

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LittleLambofJesus said:

Ironice you should bring that up as I had a discussion thread on the exact verse.
Unfortunately it fizzled out, but it is still open

http://www.christianforums.com/t7571967/

2 Tim 1:15 All of Asia turn away from Paul

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Where is the church of Ephesus now, which according to these arguments so righteously rejected Paul? Is the Ephesus church a pillar of Christian belief these days? If they were so righteous in the time of Paul they should be a huge mega church these days. But IIRC that entire area is predominantly Muslim,

Der Alter said:

Where is the church of Ephesus now, which according to these arguments so righteously rejected Paul? Is the Ephesus church a pillar of Christian belief these days? If they were so righteous in the time of Paul they should be a huge mega church these days. But IIRC that entire area is predominantly Muslim,

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I have been there, Ephesus is empty of residents... Just tourists

drstevej said:

I have been there, Ephesus is empty of residents... Just tourists

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Ooops. Guess we can't hold Ephesus up as a credible witness against Paul or any other disciple. Pity. Wonder what ploy we will see next?

Originally Posted by Der Alter

Where is the church of Ephesus now, which according to these arguments so righteously rejected Paul? Is the Ephesus church a pillar of Christian belief these days? If they were so righteous in the time of Paul they should be a huge mega church these days. But IIRC that entire area is predominantly Muslim,

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drstevej said:

I have been there, Ephesus is empty of residents... Just tourists

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Kindgdom Bible Studies Revelation Series 31
The Ephesian Assembly

Ephesus is the first mentioned church of the seven. Ephesus was a city of about two hundred thousand people. It was a great city and had a huge outdoor theater which could seat about twenty thousand people. It was a place of resorts, and the Roman emperors came there. It was a city constructed of white marble, a beautiful place, and Paul commented on that. The city was considered as the greatest city of Roman Asia. It was also a seaport with a very good harbor. A Roman writer called it &#8220;Lumen Asiae&#8221; or &#8220;The Light of Asia.&#8221; What was the source of its greatness? It was the Gateway of Asia. Ships plying the waters of the Mediterranean sea could enter this fine harbor. Ephesus was the end of the road from far off exotic places of the east. Travelers and goods bound for Rome passed through this city. When Christians were shipped to Rome to be flung to the lions, Ephesus was the port of embarkation. Ignatius called it the Highway of the Martyrs. Its position made Ephesus the wealthiest and the greatest city in all Asia.

The seven churches literally began out of the church at Ephesus. The letters that were sent to these churches probably started at Ephesus, as was the custom in those days, they circulated letters from church to church. The first letter was addressed to Ephesus and the remainder were undoubtedly directed to the churches in the order that the letters would be circulated, for they were seven letters within one letter &#8212; the whole of the Revelation being but one book.

The city of Ephesus was a beautiful city but was probably best known in the ancient world for its sexual perversion. This is what many thousands of people came to the city for! The world-famous temple of the goddess Diana was located in the city and every form of immorality was centered in the temple worship, for &#8220;sacred sex&#8221; was one of the prominent features of the cult of Diana. It was one of those cities where, like Las Vegas today, if you wanted a &#8220;good time&#8221; and you were unconverted and didn&#8217;t care what kind of good time you had, that was the place to go.

Ephesus was a city one went to to sin &#8212; everything was legal. The temple of Diana was one of the seven wonders of the ancient world. Inside the temple was an altar built to Diana in front of three velvet curtains. Behind the curtains was the image of Diana.
The image was so ancient that no one could remember where it originated, which fostered the belief that it literally fell from heaven.................


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Der Alter said:

Where is the church of Ephesus now, which according to these arguments so righteously rejected Paul? Is the Ephesus church a pillar of Christian belief these days? If they were so righteous in the time of Paul they should be a huge mega church these days. But IIRC that entire area is predominantly Muslim,

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So what? The Bible already answers your question, in the same passage: "Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love." (Rev 2:4). It would be a miracle if it wasn't in ruins.