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Paul, the False Apostle: Rebuttal of Point 3

A

All Souls

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3. His claim of apostleship stands alone.

Other than the twelve apostles who spent three and a half years with Yeshua, no one other than Paul can be identified as having claimed for themselves the title of apostle of Yeshua. Barnabas was referred to as an apostle along with Paul by Luke in Acts 14:14, but there is no record of Barnabas claiming for himself the title.

Along with point 1 this seeks to claim that there is no mention of Paul's apostleship in the NT, but of course the author of this anonymous essay knows this is not true, hence in Acts 14:14 we have the statement 'the apostles Barnabas and Paul'. I have outlined the evidence that Paul is recognised to have been apostle in my previous post. The author is true that there is no record of Barnabas claiming the title for himself, but this is an argument from silence and really proves nothing other than there is no record of Barnabas claiming for himself the title.
 

ananda

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Who were the false, evil, lying "apostles" that were judged and righteously rejected in Ephesus (the capital of the Roman province of Asia, where all 7 Revelation churches were located near) in Revelation 2:2?

Is there a record of any "apostle" being rejected in Asia? Hint: 2Tim 1:15.
 
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All Souls

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Who were the false, evil, lying "apostles" that were judged and righteously rejected in Ephesus (the capital of the Roman province of Asia, where all 7 Revelation churches were located near) in Revelation 2:2?

Is there a record of any "apostle" being rejected in Asia? Hint: 2Tim 1:15.

Revelation was written around 69 CE whereas 2 Tim likely dates to much later; thus I find it unlikely that 2 Tim 1:15 has any relevance to Rev. 2:2. :thumbsup:
 
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ananda

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The strongest evidence suggests that it was written by the same person who composed Luke-Acts: see this.
Even if it was the case that 2Tim was not written by Paul, the author didn't seem to have a high opinion of Paul himself.

As far as the records show, only Paul (and his associates), and the Apostle John ministered in Ephesus, and I highly doubt that the Apostle John was the one that was rejected.
 
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Der Alte

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Rev. cannot be referring to 2 Tim because the latter didn't exist.

2 Timothy quoted by the early church.

2Ti 1:7 -
Clement of Alexandria [c.150-215] Stromata Book IV
ANF02. Fathers of the Second Century: Hermas, Tatian, Athenagoras, Theophilus, and Clement of Alexandria (Entire) - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Be not therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, or of me his prisoner," he writes to Timothy.

Tertullian [c.160-c.225] Scorpiace
ANF03. Latin Christianity: Its Founder, Tertullian - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

for he had said before: "For God hath not given us the spirit of fear, but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind."

2 Tim 1:16
Epistle of Ignatius [c.35-c.107] to the Ephesians [Disciple of the apostle John]
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

me, and "hath not been ashamed of my chain,"

2Ti 1:18 -
Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

None of those things which ye have done to them shall be passed by without being reckoned unto you. "The Lord grant" to you "that ye may find mercy of the Lord in that day!"[71]

Epistle of Ignatius to Hero, a Deacon of Antioch
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Salute Cassian, my host, and his most serious-minded partner in life, and their very dear children, to whom may "God grant that they find mercy of the Lord in that day,"[30]​
 
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Der Alte

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Who were the false, evil, lying "apostles" that were judged and righteously rejected in Ephesus (the capital of the Roman province of Asia, where all 7 Revelation churches were located near) in Revelation 2:2?

Is there a record of any "apostle" being rejected in Asia? Hint: 2Tim 1:15.

Where are those "churches" now? How good is their witness?
 
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By Faith Alone

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Who were the false, evil, lying "apostles" that were judged and righteously rejected in Ephesus (the capital of the Roman province of Asia, where all 7 Revelation churches were located near) in Revelation 2:2?

Is there a record of any "apostle" being rejected in Asia? Hint: 2Tim 1:15.

Paul was an apostle to the GENTILES. The book of Revelation is YET future and about the CIRCUMCISION.

You know WHY? Paul was rejected?
 
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ananda

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Paul was an apostle to the GENTILES.
The twelve were the apostles to the Gentiles (see Matthew 28:18-20).

The book of Revelation is YET future and about the CIRCUMCISION. You know WHY? Paul was rejected?
I perceive no difference between the "circumcision" and the "uncircumcision" (see Matthew 28:18-20).
 
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By Faith Alone

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The twelve were the apostles to the Gentiles (see Matthew 28:18-20).

I perceive no difference between the "circumcision" and the "uncircumcision" (see Matthew 28:18-20).


IN CHRIST...no difference. As to the FLESH we have the olive tree.

Acts 1:6....Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

Gal 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel... of... the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel ...of.... the circumcision was unto Peter;
 
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TorahMan

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Again. Do you know WHY Paul was rejected?
Yes, but to learn why we have to study Luke's account more closely, paying attention to clues which are easily missed. We also need to put aside our preconceptions about Paul, and simply let the words speak for themselves. (By the way my Bible is the NKJV; I don't know how other Bibles compare. I certainly don't recommend the CJB, which has the most corrupted translations of Paul's epistles I've ever seen.) Let's proceed:

1. After his 'vision', Paul stayed in Damascus for a while, then went to Jerusalem to learn more from the apostles (Acts 9:17-31). I believe this is a true record, which overrides the contradictory account in Galatians 1. (The reason for the differences is a story in itself, which I won't attempt to cover here.)

2. Some time later, Paul went to Thessalonica where he taught a Torah-friendly version of the gospel. The visit is recorded in Acts 17:1, and proof that this is what he taught them is seen in his follow-up letter of 1 Thessalonians, where in verse 2:14 he said: "For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judea in Christ Jesus". It's widely agreed that in those days, the churches in Judea taught Messiah + Torah. Therefore Paul was obviously doing the same.

3. After further travels, Paul went to Ephesus and was received into the synagogue (Acts 19:1-8). This is significant, because the Jews would not have received him if he'd been teaching against the Torah.

Now verse 8 tells us that he taught the gospel for 3 months, apparently with good success. But notice this: in verse 9, Luke reveals that Paul did something which caused such a huge uproar, that he was thrown out in disgrace. Paul also spoke of this in 2 Tim 1:15, where he said "all those in Asia have turned away from me". Whatever he did in the synagogue caused such a stir, that the Ephesian Jews were still talking about it a couple of years later (Acts 21:27-29).

----

Now the question is this: What might Paul have done after three months, which caused the uproar? Why did his new Jewish converts suddenly abandon their faith, even condemning it as Luke recorded in Acts 19:9?

I suggest that after three months of preaching, Paul realised that by stretching grace to the limit, he could claim that it's not necessary to do good works or obey the commandments in order to get saved. He probably thought this made his gospel more marketable, but all it did was turn everyone off. Because of the well-known instruction to kill those who taught against the commandments in Deut 13:5, he was probably lucky to escape with his life.

From then on he never taught Torah again (as commanded by James in Acts 15:21), only the faith-alone gospel so familiar to today's church. Then after Paul's atrocious behaviour in the Temple (Acts 21:26-30), followed by the riot he caused amongst the Sanhedrin (Acts 23:7-10), James completely washed his hands of him. Paul was too much of an embarrassment to the church, and obviously had no intention of modifying his behaviour.

Because the Dead Sea Scrolls mention the excommunication of a Paul-type figure, I suggest that this is when it occurred. Following that, his rejection by James and the apostles was complete.

TorahMan
 
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drstevej

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He probably thought this made his gospel more marketable

Because the Dead Sea Scrolls mention the excommunication of a Paul-type figure, I suggest that this is when it occurred.

Is uncharitable speculation a part of Torah?
 
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Phantasman

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From then on he never taught Torah again (as commanded by James in Acts 15:21), only the faith-alone gospel so familiar to today's church. Then after Paul's atrocious behaviour in the Temple (Acts 21:26-30), followed by the riot he caused amongst the Sanhedrin (Acts 23:7-10), James completely washed his hands of him. Paul was too much of an embarrassment to the church, and obviously had no intention of modifying his behaviour.

Because the Dead Sea Scrolls mention the excommunication of a Paul-type figure, I suggest that this is when it occurred. Following that, his rejection by James and the apostles was complete.

TorahMan

Actually, Paul knew that James (not Peter) was head of the Apostles.

Galatians 2
7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles )
9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.


James and Paul fared well together. Peter and Paul did not. Paul was sent to the Gentiles by James.
 
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