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The Torah states directly that you cannot light a fire on the Sabbath. I could post the verse if you desire, but it's in there. So, lighting a fire would be a sin. You maintain that one cannot commit a sin even if it would be a moral good, yes?
I maintain that that is Catholic moral theology. I don't know what God expected of cultures prior to Chirst.
I want to make sure that my previous comment about Jesus and him healing a man on the Sabbath is clarified. Since Jesus and the Apostles are priests they were allowed to work on the Sabbath. The Pharisees didn't recognize this and were falsely accusing Jesus of going against the law by healing a man on the Sabbath. But Jesus' rebuke of them was the point I wanted to make. He rebuked the Pharisees because they were using a man-made law as an excuse to neglect one of God's commandments.We are not talking about graduality of sin but of the morality of doing evil. Not everything that is forbidden by God is evil. It is not evil for God to heal a man on the Sabbath or any other day. This is one of the most very basic (though not always easy to understand) bits of moral theology. You may not do evil. What is evil? Lying is evil. Murder is evil. Profaning the Eucharist is evil. Abortion is evil.
What is not automatically evil? Working on the sabbath is not evil. Killing human beings is not automatically evil.
Saint Paul is not addressing himself, he is putting himself in the position of somebody who might try to make this argument. The next verse clarifies the point he is making and says their (3rd Person) condemnation is just. He is saying that you cannot justify your sins by saying something positive came out of it. Verse 5 gives an example. Our unrighteousness shows just how righteous God is which enhances his glory but we will not escape judgment because of this fact so we must ask for forgiveness.
If you were a German living in Nazi Germany, and you were hiding a Jewish family in your house, and the Nazi SS came to your door and asked if there are any Jews in the house, you would answer yes?
What if the Nazi SS officer answered back, "Yes, I know the penalty. Answer now, yes or no, or we are coming in to search for ourselves. And if there are any hiding in here we will find them."From what I understand, his answer might be "Why would I be hiding Jews?" or "Are you stupid? Don't you know the penalty for hiding Jews?".
It seems like deception isn't counted among lying.
What if the Nazi SS officer answered back, "Yes, I know the penalty. Answer now, yes or no, or we are coming in to search for ourselves. And if there are any hiding in here we will find them."
I want to make sure that my previous comment about Jesus and him healing a man on the Sabbath is clarified. Since Jesus and the Apostles are priests they were allowed to work on the Sabbath. The Pharisees didn't recognize this and were falsely accusing Jesus of going against the law by healing a man on the Sabbath. But Jesus' rebuke of them was the point I wanted to make. He rebuked the Pharisees because they were using a man-made law as an excuse to neglect one of God's commandments.
If you were a German living in Nazi Germany, and you were hiding a Jewish family in your house, and the Nazi SS came to your door and asked if there are any Jews in the house, you would answer yes?
Killing to save a life is better than telling a lie to save a life? That's disturbing.It is not evil to work on the Sabbath. It is evil to lie.
I don't know what Inwould answer. Such a person doesn not have a right to the truth, and lying is always evil and we cannot do evil so that good may come. I might make an attempt to kill that person, acting as a non traditional combatant in a just war. I might lie,knowing full well that what I was doing was forbidden but trusting in the Blood of Christ anyway.
Killing to save a life is better than telling a lie to save a life? That's disturbing.
If a German hiding a Jewish family in his house would have answered the Nazi SS officer's question with "Yes, they are hiding here," do you believe that they would have been doing the right thing?Killing is not always evil, lying always is. I don't make the rules, God does. Killing Nazis who are rounding up Jews to put into concentration camps was permissible both as an act of defense of an innocent person and of just war.
If a German hiding a Jewish family in his house would have answered the Nazi SS officer's question with "Yes, they are hiding here," do you believe that they would have been doing the right thing?
Or, here's another question:
Do you believe that a Catholic would be committing a sin if they work as an undercover police officer since this situation involves deception?
Or, in time of war, do you believe that it's a sin for a country to use camouflage, concealment, and deception tactics such as what was done by the Allied Forces during WWII?
I just found this article about it:
Pope Francis and lying to save life
Would you say it would be nearly impossible for a Catholic to be a spy since it would be nearly impossible to infiltrate an organization without lying? Just giving a different name when asked is a lie, after all.
There is the concept of mental reservation, which is to reserve in one's head part of a conversation.
Bad guy: what is your name?
Spy: my name is (not) bill smith, I am (not) interested in joining your campaign and working for you.
That strikes me as behind the limits of what can be done, but respected moral theologians have suggested that that does not amount to a lie. The people who argue these topics should be people who have a solid grasp on the subject matter. I would not say that I do, and it is rather clear that nobody else in the discussion does either.
A lie is quite frankly is not telling the truth.There is the concept of mental reservation, which is to reserve in one's head part of a conversation.
Bad guy: what is your name?
Spy: my name is (not) bill smith, I am (not) interested in joining your campaign and working for you.
That strikes me as behind the limits of what can be done, but respected moral theologians have suggested that that does not amount to a lie. The people who argue these topics should be people who have a solid grasp on the subject matter. I would not say that I do, and it is rather clear that nobody else in the discussion does either.
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