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Citizen of the Kingdom

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Any of the parables about the kingdom are of one owner and his son.
Anyway back to topic I can see your point that the NT covenant is to be reckoned as within grasp. The son of the landowner did get killed and like He proclaimed we're released from captivity whereas the Judaists couldn't before Christ and can't unless the tree from one root becomes branches that bear fruit. Something that the OC could never do.
 
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ToBeLoved

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There are ONLY TWO covenants, not 100. So I don't think it's as hard as you make it out to be.

We have our whole lives to study it. Years and years. So I don't think it's just somethign to give up on.

No, I don't agree. Not at all
 
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JAL

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There are ONLY TWO covenants, not 100. So I don't think it's as hard as you make it out to be.

We have our whole lives to study it. Years and years. So I don't think it's just somethign to give up on.

No, I don't agree. Not at all
The terms covenant and promise are often used interchangeably in Scripture (see Galatians 3) - because a promise sworn by God binds Him covenantally to fulfill it. Not only are there more than two usages of 'covenant', there are innumerable promises. Good luck sorting out THAT thorny mess.

OR, you can opt for a much simpler hermeneutic, as I have advised. Much safer.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Well that is where you are wrong. A covenant is specfic and there are only two major ones and they are not just a promise, but a bunch of promises that is a legally binding agreement between God and the person/people.

If you don't reallize that a covenant is different from a promise then you miss a lot of the Bible, specifically the difference between Before Jesus death and after.

I have no doubt it is confusing without understanding the two main Covenants.
 
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JAL

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I think you need to closely examine Galatians 3, before deciding that covenant and promise are not used interchangeably.

And again, I don't need Galatians 3 to prove the point -because it's already self-evidently, tautologically, logically true that a sworn promise is binding and thus behaves like a covenant between the two parties. No escaping this fact. Unless you think that God need not live up to His promises!
 
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ToBeLoved

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You can give me the verses if you want to prove something. Specific verses and explain your stance.
 
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JAL

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You can give me the verses if you want to prove something. Specific verses and explain your stance.
Again, why should I have to prove a tautology? Prove to me that a promise isn't binding, thereby shifting the burden of proof to me.
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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To clarify covenant and promise further

Jesus' geneology places Him as the son of Abraham Matthew 1:1 as the ONE inheriting the promise given in covanental agreement
Genesis 22:17-18
I will surely bless you and will greatly multiply your seed like the stars of the heavens and like the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of his enemies.
And in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.
Galatians 3:16
But to Abraham were the promises spoken and to his seed. He does not say, "And to the seeds,'' as concerning many, but as concerning one: "And to your seed,'' who is Christ.
Galatians 3:14
In order that the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.​
Faith is indeed what is needed on our part while grace is needed on God's part. Faith and grace make up the covenant agreement.

Hebrews 11:19
Counting that God was able to raise men even from the dead, from which he also received him back in figure.​
In figure literally means in parabolic language. When Paul spoke figuratively of Christ and the church he was literally telling a parable.

There is another promise given that Jesus told the disciples to wait for at Pentecost.
Luke 24:49
And behold, I send forth the promise of My Father upon you; but as for you, stay in the city until you put on power from on high.
Joel 2:28-29
And afterward I will pour out My Spirit upon all flesh, And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy; Your old men shall dream dreams; Your young men shall see visions.
Indeed even upon the male and female slaves In those days I will pour out My Spirit.​

This was different than the promise recieved when Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit on them.
Acts 2:39
For to you is the promise and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God calls to Himself.​
There they recieved the promised comforter. The breath of life that is the down-payment to be able to live a Christian life. That is the incorruptable seed that is the rebirth that has qualified you for a share of the allotted portion of the saints in the light. That is in contrast to the OC inheritance of Joshua 14:1
Acts 26:18
To open their eyes, to turn them from darkness to light and from the authority of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.

The power from on High was for their ministry, much like the cloak of Elijah was for his ministry figuratively.

The meaning of righteousness thru faith.
Romans 4:13
For it was not through the law that the promise was made to Abraham or to his seed that he would be the heir of the world, but through the righteousness of faith.
Galatians 3:23
But before faith came we were guarded under law, being shut up unto the faith which was to be revealed.
Galatians 3:25
But since faith has come, we are no longer under a child-conductor.​
The faith that replaces the law is objective to us when we believe subjectively in Christ, as God intended, that we receive the righteousness of faith. This righteousness IS Christ by whom we receive by our subjective believing according to the objective faith ordained by God — as God's righteousness received by us
1 Corinthians 1:30
But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became wisdom to us from God: both righteousness and sanctification and redemption,
There is also the promise given to those who honor their parents and so concerning mankind's relationship with mankind.

And there is the promise of rest that even the OC faithful had not yet attained to for they cannot obtain w/o us.
Hebrews 6:17
Therefore God, intending to show more abundantly to the heirs of the promise the unchangeableness of His counsel, interposed with an oath,
Thereby God, willing more abundantly to show unto the heirs of promise the immutability of His counsel, confirmed it by an oath,
that by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we, who have fled for refuge, might have strong consolation to lay hold upon the hope set before us.
This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which entereth into that within the veil,
where the Forerunner has entered for us, even Jesus, who is made a high priest forever, after the order of Melchizedek.​
We must remember that the ax was laid at the root. But even Jesus wondered if there would be faith when He returned.

My blurp for the day. I would like to cover sanctification if possible within this thread.​
 
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obsolete

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You can use the analogy of the tree cut at the roots to explain sanctification. The old nature is severed completely. The flow of sap to the new shoots renews it with new life. If the tree isn't cut to the root then the whole tree isn't renewed to bear the type of fruit sought after. If it were just grafted onto a branch then sprouts from it rob it of strength so that constant vigilance needs to be maintained. Like old habits regaining power :yikes:
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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That Israel and the church are distinct from each other and can't be blended is seen in the election dates because both are not the same. In fact the church antedates the election of Israel.
Israel was chosen in Abraham from the foundation of the world Matthew 25:34 while the church was chosen in Christ Before the Foundation of the World Ephesians 1:4-6

Ephesians 1:10
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Hosea 3:4, Luke 21:24, Romans 11:25-26, Romans 11:2

Israel hasn't been supplanted by the church, because they are again to take their place as leaders of the earth. This however is not the church's inheritance before the coming of the new heaven and earth! It's the Jews! The Jews are Jews, the nations are gentiles and the church is both Jew and gentile.

The return as a nation of Jews is being fulfilled before our eyes, so it's hard to ignor that part of history in the making (altho I don't agree with their interpretation)

Paul talks about 2 olive trees. One a 'good olive tree' and the other a 'wild olive tree'. Some but not all of the branches have been broken off the good tree. v 5 the root and the trunk being still alive. Wild branches were grafted in among them not instead of them. So they haven't been rooted up and replaced because the root gives life to both. So there's no boasting in this. "Boast not against the branches.. for thou bearest not the root but the root thee"

They were broken off because of unbelief, but if the 'good olive tree' repents they can be grafted back in again. Romans 11:17-26 After the holacost they have returned to their place among the nations. Jeremiah 30:10-11, Daniel 12:1

The valley of dead bones in Jeremiah 31 refers to the nation of Jews. Jeremiah 31:35-36. Having been gathered back unconverted Ezekiel 36:24-37 "our bones are dry and our hope is lost; we are cut off from our parts" refers to a nation and not individuals coming out of their graves that happened at the time of Jesus' resurrection.

There is a prophesy of them being replanted and not plucked up again.. while giving the sun for light by day and the ordinances of the moon and stars for night Jeremiah 24:6; Jeremiah 31:35-36

Yet what comes from the root makes it way into all of the branches, so I believe the prophesy belongs to both Christians and Jews at different times.

IMO The book of the Hebrews would be to those who are converted and warnings to those who want to turn back to become like old branches of unbelievers, as a warnings to those in Christ wanting to turn back to law.

The OC is a covenant made with a nation. Christianity is made up of individuals. Distinctly different. The new did not supplant the old. In prophesy is the proof that they are both still a part of His plan.
 
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pilgrimage

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Pauls good news dealt with the adamic sin which all men from adam where under just like in the analogy of the covenants, one Abrahamic and the other that predates.
 
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