Paul did not teach Perpetual Belief Alone-ism for salvation.

[Mark Quayle]

Paul's message was based upon the believer having no righteousness before God of obeying the law(which is not committing sin, for sin is the transgression of the law.)

Just a question, to clarify, are you saying here, "obeying the law = not committing sin" or something else --that obeying the law is not about the question of committing sin?

 

[johnbunyan]

Just a question, to clarify, are you saying here, "obeying the law = not committing sin" or something else --that obeying the law is not about the question of committing sin?

Sin is the transgression of the law 1John3:4
So according to the biblical definition of sin, if you obey the law you do not commit sin, when you fail to obey it you do commit sin

 

[Bible Highlighter]

A Jewish Christian once said: ''The quran can be understood simply by reading the plain words written in it, the Bible was not written to be understood that way.''
Would you agree with that Jewish Christian?

You did need the Anointing to understand God's Word (1 John 2:27). This is why I prefer the term, “Bible Alone + the Anointing to Understand it” instead of Sola Scriptura. God is the necessary equation to understanding the Bible for sure. But we have to understand that God is not going to make us read the Bible in a way that goes beyond normal reading rules, either. Our God is a God of order and not chaos.

 

[johnbunyan]

You did need the Anointing to understand God's Word (1 John 2:27). This is why I prefer the term, “Bible Alone + the Anointing to Understand it” instead of Sola Scriptura. God is the necessary equation to understanding the Bible for sure. But we have to understand that God is not going to make us read the Bible in a way that goes beyond normal reading rules, either. Our God is a God of order and not chaos.

My understanding is, we need the Holy Spirit to understand God's word, for He was sent to lead the believers into truth.
Anyone can read the bible over and over, it does not neccessarily mean they will have correct understanding after they have done so. People in many religions outside of christianity have read the bible extensively. The Holy Spirit is the key, and the true dividing line in christianity

 

[Mark Quayle]

Sin is the transgression of the law 1John3:4
So according to the biblical definition of sin, if you obey the law you do not commit sin, when you fail to obey it you do commit sin

Thank you. So you are saying, (and I agree), "obeying the law = not committing sin".

 

[johnbunyan]

Thank you. So you are saying, (and I agree), "obeying the law = not committing sin".

Yes, so it is hard for many to accept Paul's message:
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in His sight by observing the law/not committing sin, rather through the law we become conscious of sin Romans3:20
For many, that verse and many others would be giving the believer a licence to sin, so they say it cannot include the moral law. And yet, that is why it was written, for man could faultlessly obey the levitical/legalistic law. According to Jesus, people who did not know His Father did that, as did Saul the Pharisee(Phil3:6) Mans problem has always been obeying the moral law, hence he cannot be righteous in God's sight by obeying it. Though the law itself came as one complete whole.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You posted the passages to counter what I said. It is up to you to show how they do so. To you, no doubt, the plain words do so on their own. To me, they do not. I'm not yet going to show how they support, or are neutral, to what I teach; the ball is still in your court. You have not shown how they counter what I say. At least you should show exactly how you see them countering what I say.

Example: Galatians 6:8-9 says that if you sow to the flesh (sin) you reap corruption, but if you sow to the Spirit you reap life everlasting. Verse 9 continues and defines what this reaping to the Spirit looks like by saying that we should not faint in “well doing.” So Paul here is teaching that “well doing” (a.k.a. sowing to the Spirit) is reaping life everlasting. This means that doing good is a part of eternal life. It's what the text plainly says. Now, if you don't like what it says, I can imagine you trying to do backflip twists to try to undo what it says.

Now, the Belief Alone-ism crowd might say, that I am not believing Ephesians 2:8-9. However, I believe this verse 100%. But it is merely talking about the 1st aspect of salvation in being saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus, and not the 2nd aspect of salvation (Which is Sanctification that follows aftwards). So my believing this verse is not contrary to the truth of the whole of God's Word. I am not attempting to undo what the text says here. Ephesians 2:8-9 is 100% true. But it is referring to Initial Salvation because the context tells us this. For Ephesians 2:1 says that the believer has been quickened. How many times is a believer quickened? Just one time. Ephesians 2:8 essentially says we receive grace like a gift. How many times does a person receive the same gift? Just one time. For people do not generally re-wrap the same gifts and give them over, and over and over again. So Ephesians 2:8-9 is talking about Initial Salvation. It's the foundation upon how we are saved. But salvation does not end there. There is even Glorification, too. God will one day take His faithful believers home in new glorified bodies to be in His kingdom.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yes, so it is hard for many to accept Paul's message:
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in His sight by observing the law/not committing sin, rather through the law we become conscious of sin Romans3:20
For many, that verse and many others would be giving the believer a licence to sin, so they say it cannot include the moral law. And yet, that is why it was written, for man could faultlessly obey the levitical/legalistic law. According to Jesus, people who did not know His Father did that, as did Saul the Pharisee(Phil3:6) Mans problem has always been obeying the moral law, hence he cannot be righteous in God's sight by obeying it. Though the law itself came as one complete whole.

Paul was referring to the 613 Laws of Moses as a whole or package deal, and he was not referring to the Moral Law (like do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, etc.) that has carried over into the New Covenant. Romans 3:1 asks the question: What profit is there in circumcision? Circumcision is a ceremonial law that started with Abraham and was repeated in the Law of Moses. It was not a command that was given to us by Jesus and His followers. In fact, circumcision for salvation is condemned at the Jerusalem council (See: Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24). Paul says let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God (2 Corinthians 7:1). Do you accept what this verse says? Most Christians today don't (in my experience).

 

[johnbunyan]

Paul was referring to the 613 Laws of Moses as a whole or package deal, and he was not referring to the Moral Law (like do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, etc.) that has carried over into the New Covenant. Romans 3:1 asks the question: What profit is there in circumcision? Circumcision is a ceremonial law that started with Abraham and was repeated in the Law of Moses. It was not a command that was given to us by Jesus and His followers. In fact, circumcision for salvation is condemned at the Jerusalem council (See: Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24). Paul says let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God (2 Corinthians 7:1). Do you accept what this verse says? Most Christians today don't (in my experience).

So in your view, Jesus died at Calvary to annul a righteousness of law that could be faultlessly obeyed?

 

[Mark Quayle]

For many, that verse and many others would be giving the believer a licence to sin, so they say it cannot include the moral law.

Or so some would accuse some of us of teaching, since to them that is a logical implication of what we teach.

 

[johnbunyan]

Or so some would accuse some of us of teaching, since to them that is a logical implication of what we teach.

True, but the logical/rational mind of man will not understand the message of the bible, only the Holy Spirit can turn on the light

 

[Mark Quayle]

Example: Galatians 6:8-9 says that if you sow to the flesh (sin) you reap corruption, but if you sow to the Spirit you reap life everlasting. Verse 9 continues and defines what this reaping to the Spirit looks like by saying that we should not faint in “well doing.” So Paul here is teaching that “well doing” (a.k.a. sowing to the Spirit) is reaping life everlasting. This means that doing good is a part of eternal life. It's what the text plainly says. Now, if you don't like what it says, I can imagine you trying to do backflip twists to try to undo what it says.

No need for the gymnastics; I don't say that good works are not "part of eternal life". In fact, I insist with James that if one has faith, he MUST have works. Nevertheless, the works do not cause salvation, and so far I have seen nowhere, not even John 3:16 that says belief, from the person alone --i.e. not from the Spirit-- causes salvation. But on to your next paragraph:

Now, the Belief Alone-ism crowd might say, that I am not believing Ephesians 2:8-9. However, I believe this verse 100%. But it is merely talking about the 1st aspect of salvation in being saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus, and not the 2nd aspect of salvation (Which is Sanctification that follows aftwards). So my believing this verse is not contrary to the truth of the whole of God's Word. I am not attempting to undo what the text says here. Ephesians 2:8-9 is 100% true. But it is referring to Initial Salvation because the context tells us this. For Ephesians 2:1 says that the believer has been quickened. How many times is a believer quickened? Just one time. Ephesians 2:8 essentially says we receive grace like a gift. How many times does a person receive the same gift? Just one time. For people do not generally re-wrap the same gifts and give them over, and over and over again. So Ephesians 2:8-9 is talking about Initial Salvation. It's the foundation upon how we are saved. But salvation does not end there. There is even Glorification, too. God will one day take His faithful believers home in new glorified bodies to be in His kingdom.

I don't see any disagreement in that paragraph at all, with what I say, if by '1st aspect' you are indeed only referring to regeneration and atonement and
by '2nd aspect' you are referring to the subsequent results, including works, that follow the newness of life. I hope you can agree with me that while we do indeed work, and are intimately involved in "every good work", and in our own sanctification, that these are still driven by the Spirit of God in us, who is our motivation. Our will is indeed changed, and remains so, but that is still because of the Holy Spirit within.

It is slowly dawning on me that those you call the 'Belief Alone-ism crowd', in which apparently you include me, deny that works are necessary. So I don't know of whom you are speaking; I don't just believe they are necessary --like James, I demand them, but as evidences, not causes, of salvation. Truth is, I don't personally know of anyone who teaches that works are not required of a believer. This has been repeated ad nauseum on this site in many different threads. I am at a loss as to how you have missed it. Perhaps you didn't miss it, but forgot it in your zeal to wage war on those you disagree with?

 

[johnbunyan]

Paul wrote:

The power of sin is the law 1Cor15:56

Clearly the above was not referring to the legalistic law, for that law could be faultlessly obeyed, so sin did not have power concerning that law. It is referring to the moral law (though the law came as one whole law) It specifically refers to righteousness of obeying the law. Hence:

For sin shall no longer be your master for you are not under law(righteousness of obeying the law)but under grace. Rom6:14

So why does the Christian not have a licence to sin if they have no righteousness of obeying the law? Under the old covenant it was an external law, engraved in stone(and on parchments) An external law does not mean you in your heart want to obey it, hence, there was righteousness of obeying the law in place(Deut6:25)

However, under the new covenant it is no longer an external law, but one written in the mind and placed on the heart of every born again believer, it is an internal law. Because that has happened: ‘’Your sins and lawless deeds will be remembered no more(Heb10:15-17). A law in your heart means you in your heart do want to obey it. Therefore you can never use righteousness apart from obeying the law as a licence to sin if you have truly been born again. It is not possible. You will be struck with a seering conscience when you wilfully transgress the law in your heart and mind. For you are going against how you in your mind know you should live and in your heart want to live. And you will have no rest and no peace until you come before your Father in Heaven and ask His forgiveness for your folly

It is a brilliant covenant, but God deals in brilliance. By removing an external law, God removed the true power of sin from the believer, for righteousness of obeying the law could then be removed also. With the true power of sin removed from the believer they can follow their hearts desire(though never perfectly) and live an evermore holy life as God wants from them(for the law is now in their heart). For what opposes obedience(sin) had its true power removed when Jesus died to annul righteousness of obeying the law. And so Paul states:



Do we then nullify the law by this faith?(righteousness of faith in Christ not of obeying the law) Not at all! Rather we uphold the law Rom3:31



For sin shall no longer be your master for you are not under law but under grace Rom6:14



Those led of their natural minds cannot and will not accept the true message. They will quote the selective letter of scripture in support of their views, a letter neither they or anyone else can live up to, for:

The letter kills 2Cor3:6

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Paul's message was based upon the believer having no righteousness before God of obeying the law(which is not committing sin, for sin is the transgression of the law.) But he also taught the neccessity of Holy living.
So how do you square the two? You have no righteousnes of obeying the law/not committing sin, but the Christian is called to live an evermore Holy life.
You have to read the bible as one cohesive whole. Cherry picking scripture will not do, one way or the other

Okay. You are not dealing with what Paul said. 2 Corinthians 7:1. Do you believe that verse? Do you believe that verse when it says, “...let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.” (2 Corinthians 7:1)?

 

[Grace ambassador]

Paul did not teach Belief Alone-ism for salvation:

Grace And Peace, Precious friend(s). Does This Simple GRACE Passage
Imply That God Grants “believers” Eternal Life “BY faith Alone”?

[ God, Who Raises the dead! {v. 9} ], "Who Delivered us
from so Great a death, And Doth Deliver: in Whom we
trust that HE Will Yet Deliver us!"
(2 Cor 1:10 KJB!)

Three Aspects Of God’s Eternal Salvation!:

Above GRACE Passage Expounded For Scriptural Confirmation:

(1)
{PAST Tense}: { Justification!!! = God Establishes, When one comes
humbly Before HIM, by “faith Alone,” A "GRACE Relationship!" }

"Who Delivered us from so great a death,...” {From The PENALTY of sin!}
Q: By “The Merits Of The ALL-Sufficient BLOOD,” Correct?

(2)
{ PRESENT Tense }: { Sanctification!! = WE "work out our OWN salvation”
{fellowship}, on earth! }

“...And Doth Deliver:...” {From The POWER of sin!! IF we Submit, Correct?}
Pertinent Question: Does “sanctification” KEEP one “Justified”
Or, Does not The ALL-Sufficient BLOOD Of The FINISHED Work Of
CHRIST On The Cross, Eternally Settle “the PENALTY” of sin issue?

(3)
{FUTURE Tense}: { Glorification! = Eternal "fellowship," IN HEAVEN!!! }
“...in Whom we trust that HE Will Yet Deliver us!"” {From...
Precious friend(s), see you In God's Great GloryLand!! ♫ ↑
FAR, Far, Away From...


...The PRESENCE of sin!!!} Finally! Amen?
---------------------------------
Please enlighten me...someone CAN “explain” Better than I = thanks…

“To The Praise Of The Glory Of HIS {Amazing} GRACE!”

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Grace And Peace, Precious friend(s). Does This Simple GRACE Passage
Imply That God Grants “believers” Eternal Life “BY faith Alone”?

[ God, Who Raises the dead! {v. 9} ], "Who Delivered us
from so Great a death, And Doth Deliver: in Whom we
trust that HE Will Yet Deliver us!"
(2 Cor 1:10 KJB!)

Three Aspects Of God’s Eternal Salvation!:

Above GRACE Passage Expounded For Scriptural Confirmation:

(1)
{PAST Tense}: { Justification!!! = God Establishes, When one comes
humbly Before HIM, by “faith Alone,” A "GRACE Relationship!" }

"Who Delivered us from so great a death,...” {From The PENALTY of sin!}
Q: By “The Merits Of The ALL-Sufficient BLOOD,” Correct?

(2)
{ PRESENT Tense }: { Sanctification!! = WE "work out our OWN salvation”
{fellowship}, on earth! }

“...And Doth Deliver:...” {From The POWER of sin!! IF we Submit, Correct?}
Pertinent Question: Does “sanctification” KEEP one “Justified”
Or, Does not The ALL-Sufficient BLOOD Of The FINISHED Work Of
CHRIST On The Cross, Eternally Settle “the PENALTY” of sin issue?

(3)
{FUTURE Tense}: { Glorification! = Eternal "fellowship," IN HEAVEN!!! }
“...in Whom we trust that HE Will Yet Deliver us!"” {From...
Precious friend(s), see you In God's Great GloryLand!! ♫ ↑
FAR, Far, Away From...


...The PRESENCE of sin!!!} Finally! Amen?
---------------------------------
Please enlighten me...someone CAN “explain” Better than I = thanks…

“To The Praise Of The Glory Of HIS {Amazing} GRACE!”

What does 1 John 1:7 say?

“But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” (1 John 1:7).

So we need to walk in the light in order for the blood of Jesus Christ to cleanse us from all sin according to 1 John 1:7. What does “walking in the light” mean?

By the use of indirect wording in 1 John 2:9-11...

“walking in the light” = “loving your brother.”​

In other words, we have to love our brother in order for the blood of Jesus Christ to cleanse us from all sin. For John says that if we hate our brother we are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him (1 John 3:15). So you have to look at the whole counsel of God's Word and not just those verses that you prefer. Paul says be not deceived, the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God and then Paul lists out various sinful kind of people (like fornicators, thieves, drunkards, etc.) (See: 1 Corinthians 6:9-10). So it's not just grace and you can live however you like and still be saved. The unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God. Period.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No need for the gymnastics; I don't say that good works are not "part of eternal life". In fact, I insist with James that if one has faith, he MUST have works. Nevertheless, the works do not cause salvation, and so far I have seen nowhere, not even John 3:16 that says belief, from the person alone --i.e. not from the Spirit-- causes salvation. But on to your next paragraph:

This is an oxymoron or a contradiction. You say that works are a part of eternal life but then you turn around and contradict yourself and say that works do not cause any kind of salvation. It says to sow to the Spirit and you will reap life everlasting. It does not say for you to do nothing and just believe in Jesus and you will reap life everlasting. Just substitute the words “life everlasting” for “salvation” and it becomes clear. Substitute the words, “sow to the Spirit” for... “welling doing.” So if we faint not in welling doing, we will reap salvation. It says the alternative is that if one sows to the flesh (sin), they will reap corruption. Two different destinies. If a belief alone and sowing to the flesh (sin) was an option in reaping life everlasting, it would say that in Galatians 6:8-9, but it doesn't. You simply are not dealing with what the text plainly says here because it does not agree with your belief.

It is slowly dawning on me that those you call the 'Belief Alone-ism crowd', in which apparently you include me, deny that works are necessary. So I don't know of whom you are speaking; I don't just believe they are necessary --like James, I demand them, but as evidences, not causes, of salvation. Truth is, I don't personally know of anyone who teaches that works are not required of a believer. This has been repeated ad nauseum on this site in many different threads. I am at a loss as to how you have missed it. Perhaps you didn't miss it, but forgot it in your zeal to wage war on those you disagree with?

Yes, you may say there are good works, but you don't believe those works save. So when I refer to Belief Alone-ism, I am referring to how you believe that this in reference to salvation. You believe a Belief in Jesus and not works is what saves. The problem with this kind of thinking is that Jesus said a good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit and a bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit. So the tree and the fruit are connected. You want to disconnect them. Jesus is the vine. We are the branches. If we don't produce good fruit, we will be cut off (See: John 15:6). That is why works are necessary. They are a salvation issue. While we cannot work our way alone into the Kingdom without God's grace, we do need to have works and live a holy life as a part of Sanctification (after we are saved by God's grace).

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 gives us a unique gospel call that most ignore. This call of the gospel is... God has chosen you to salvation through the sanctification of the Spirit, and a belief of the truth. If you were to look at the context (verse 12, and verses 16-17) you would see that grace and works are the topics of discussion. Verse 12 is the polar opposite of 2 Thessalonians 2:13, and verses 16-17 mentions grace and works (which lines up with the sanctification of the Spirit and a belief of the truth in 2 Thessalonians 2:13).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So in your view, Jesus died at Calvary to annul a righteousness of law that could be faultlessly obeyed?

The Law is the Old Law. We were never under the Old Testament Law of Moses given to Israel. Paul is not referring to all forms of Law or commands. If Paul was referring to all forms of Law, then he would be speaking against the command that tells us to believe in Jesus, too (See: 1 John 3:23). Surely we are saved by believing in Jesus, right? It's a command according to 1 John 3:23. So we are saved by this Law. We are saved by keeping this Law or command, right? So Paul is not referring to all forms of laws or commands.

 

[Albion]

This is an oxymoron or a contradiction. You say that works are a part of eternal life but then you turn around and contradict yourself and say that works do not cause any kind of salvation.

How can people persist in not getting this very simply point? Works necessarily flow from a real Faith. But they don't contribute to our chances of being saved. Therefore, we may say that they are "part of" the picture...but not the cause of the successful outcome.

What's so hard to understand about that?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

How can people persist in not getting this very simply point? Works necessarily flow from a real Faith. But they don't contribute to our chances of being saved. Therefore, we may say that they are "part of" the picture...but not the cause of the successful outcome.

What's so hard to understand about that?

Again, one more time. Read Galatians 6:8-9. Paul is saying that we sow to the flesh (sin) we will reap corruption. Then Paul says if we sow to the Spirit, we will reap everlasting life. Paul continues in verse 9 and says for us to not grow tired or be faint in “welling doing” referring back to verse 8 that says for us to sow to the Spirit to reap everlasting life (salvation). So sowing in well doing is to reap salvation. It's what the text says plainly. But most have accepted a doctrine taught to them that is at their church and so accepting the words of Paul here is very difficult for them.