Paul and Sexual frequency

[tall73]

1Co 7:3 The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband.
1Co 7:4 For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does.
1Co 7:5 Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

Paul says the following about sexual frequency as an aid to avoid temptation. I am interested in what you all think on his statement.

It was indicated in a different thread that men love to quote this. I am not sure it is just men.

I was a pastor for a decade, and it was not just men who had issues with their spouse not wanting sex. I preached on married life at times (with warning and provision for alternate topic) and wives seemed to find this text important as well.

This verse isn't saying you can never turn down your spouse. But it does seem to indicate that both of you should work to a frequency that meets the needs of the other.

This verse also doesn't address things like sickness, etc. that come up.

It does make references to some principles who's application could be looked at.

a. both have rights to expect sex.
b. both have authority over the other spouse's body.
c. Neither should deprive the other.
d. It is lack of self control to not come together due to temptation.

Paul didn't have a personal stake in this, as he was on a different program:

Co 7:6 Now as a concession, not a command, I say this.
1Co 7:7 I wish that all were as I myself am. But each has his own gift from God, one of one kind and one of another.

But he saw the temptations of Corinth in his day and wanted them to make sure they were seeking sex from the right place.

 

[Avniel]

5 Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.
6 But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment.


It is not a sin however it is certainly unwise to deny a spouse of any sort of intimacy for a long period or habitually. It creates a hole a gap in the relationship that can be filled easily that's where the devil comes in for temptation. Some people are tempted easier sexually then others are however when you see a person not easily tempted by sex become even tempted there tends to be a gap in intimacy.

 

[tall73]

First of all, I come at this from a slightly different view. I used to be a member of the Seventh-day Adventist church. And Ellen White, who they consider to be inspired, did not urge regular sexual relations at all.

So part of the reason this came up so much in my churches was that people were wanting more sex with their spouse, but thought it was wrong because of what she said.

I told them to go with the Bible. Looking back it was one of the early things that made me question Adventist theology.

For those interested, there is a more in-depth discussion of the Adventist element here: http://www.christianforums.com/t7466327/

And a video that recaps it here:

The Bible Vs. Ellen White on Married Sexuality - YouTube

As for my wife and I we tend to go in spurts. When we remember to with all the other things going on we have sex pretty frequently. And then we forget for a while, and remind ourselves of this scripture. For the most part it works out.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

Threads like this make me appreciate my husband. Seriously.

 

[tall73]

5 Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.
6 But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment.

It is not a sin to refuse, no. But in context the speak by permission, not of a commandment he is referring to their original question:

1Co 7:1 Now concerning the matters about which you wrote: "It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman."

They were asking if it was good to abstain. He indicated there were two paths so to speak.

One is having your own wife and having sexual relations regularly. Then he says:

1Co 7:6 Now as a concession, not a command, I say this.
1Co 7:7 I wish that all were as I myself am. But each has his own gift from God, one of one kind and one of another.

There is no one guidance for each person, because not all have the same gifts. Some who can remain unmarried and not burn have different gifts;

He uses these comments about having a command or not having one when speaking of things Jesus already addressed.

So for instance Jesus didn't specifically reference sexual frequency. But He did reference some who are "eunuchs" for the kingdom of God:

Mat 19:11 But he said to them, "Not everyone can receive this saying, but only those to whom it is given.
Mat 19:12 For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let the one who is able to receive this receive it."

Those who can receive not marrying should, if they have that gift, so they can serve the Lord better. This was Paul's path. So he indicated he wished they were all like him, but he knew they would not be. So he outlined the other path as a concession.


Later he says:

Co 7:10 To the married I give this charge (not I, but the Lord): the wife should not separate from her husband


Jesus did teach clearly about divorce. So here it is him speaking by command of the Lord, so it is not him, but the Lord. Ie. he has a command.

But then

1Co 7:12 To the rest I say (I, not the Lord) that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he should not divorce her.

Jesus did not specifically address this situation, but Paul elaborates.

Now we are not to take it as just his opinion however:

1Co 7:40 Yet in my judgment she is happier if she remains as she is. And I think that I too have the Spirit of God.



1Co 7:25 Now concerning the betrothed, I have no command from the Lord, but I give my judgment as one who by the Lord's mercy is trustworthy.
1Co 7:26 I think that in view of the present distress it is good for a person to remain as he is.


Later he outlines the principle again:

1Co 7:28 But if you do marry, you have not sinned, and if a betrothed woman marries, she has not sinned. Yet those who marry will have worldly troubles, and I would spare you that.



Paul is trying to address practically their problems with some guidelines that he believes are from the Spirit. But he also recognizes that each have different gifts and callings.

 

[tall73]

Threads like this make me appreciate my husband. Seriously.

It is great to have a wonderful spouse! That has been my experience as well. Not that we haven't had our issues, but we still work well together.

 

[tall73]

It should also be noted that if neither spouse has a lot of drive, it doesn't say that is bad either. As long as they are meeting each others' needs that is the point. And mutual agreement for prayer is also seen as legitimate.

 

[Avniel]

It should also be noted that if neither spouse has a lot of drive, it doesn't say that is bad either. As long as they are meeting each others' needs that is the point. And mutual agreement for prayer is also seen as legitimate.

I agree with that 100%. I believe we live in a society that promotes selfishness through the media and it seeps into our society. It's no longer a society that views a good marriage as two spouses take each others needs/wants and attempts to make an attempt to meet them. We live in a society where a good marriage typically is two people meeting their own personal needs void of any real connection never really becoming one because there is nothing they need to compromise on, nothing they need to come as one on. Then there is another good marriage and that is the marriage where one party does whatever they want and the other party makes sacrifices and is used, this marriage is celebrated when the man is taken advantage of.

I have been blessed to have a marriage that is mutual, there is no winning, there is no attempt to get a one up on the other. Perhaps it is because our parents have traveled a great deal and did not accept certain aspects of the culture they live in. Or maybe it's the fact that we both have degrees in social sciences that allows us to examine society in a dispassionate and impartial way.

It is my belief that if your spouse does what they can for you a majority of the time. However you deny them whatever it may be when you simple just don't want to(sex, a movie, a song) you are taking advantage because you can. Not being able to give freely is a sign of insecurity.

This push to dissolve communities and people should mainly focus on individuals is really why people no longer believe in this scripture. I think people would rather not believe in the reality that if you don't have sex with your spouse it is easier for them to be tempted. It takes the fault, the blame and places some of it in the hands of the victim. I think it's only logical, if I like to eat jerk chicken and I like to have it 3 times a week.....but my wife doesn't like to eat it but she knows how to make it just the way I like it.....I'm either going to be tempted to make it myself or go to a Jamaican spot and get it there. If a person is denying a spouse that spouse will be tempted. It doesn't matter if it's sex or conversation when presented they will be more tempted then a person that had sex the night before it's just logics.

 

[ValleyGal]

Imo, it boils down to respect. If people respect each other sexually, it means meeting their sexual needs within the marriage so the spouse is not tempted to go looking elsewhere. However, if one is overwhelmed by the other's extreme sex drive, there needs to be respect for that, too. Imo, spouses need to learn that sex is one way in which to love and serve the other. The question is "how can I love my spouse better in this situation?" Sometimes love requires sacrifice to either meet your spouse's need for sex and sometimes it means having sexual self control to meet your spouse's need for a break from it or accommodate their lesser drive.

 

[tall73]

Imo, it boils down to respect. If people respect each other sexually, it means meeting their sexual needs within the marriage so the spouse is not tempted to go looking elsewhere. However, if one is overwhelmed by the other's extreme sex drive, there needs to be respect for that, too. Imo, spouses need to learn that sex is one way in which to love and serve the other. The question is "how can I love my spouse better in this situation?" Sometimes love requires sacrifice to either meet your spouse's need for sex and sometimes it means having sexual self control to meet your spouse's need for a break from it or accommodate their lesser drive.

Sounds about right.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

It is great to have a wonderful spouse! That has been my experience as well. Not that we haven't had our issues, but we still work well together.

Anytime I think of issues we may have or may have had, it always seems like it's really not as big as it could be when I come here. The things people go to the mattresses for on here is insane. We only ever have disagreements about two things, and I count myself happy that neither one of us slam a Bible down on a table and say "this is why I'm right and you're doing wrong." It would drive me up the dang wall.

 

[ChristianGolfer]

Anytime I think of issues we may have or may have had, it always seems like it's really not as big as it could be when I come here. The things people go to the mattresses for on here is insane. We only ever have disagreements about two things, and I count myself happy that neither one of us slam a Bible down on a table and say "this is why I'm right and you're doing wrong." It would drive me up the dang wall.

I too am very thankful for a husband who would never use the Bible as a tool to get what he wants from me.

I honestly believe such things are bordering on, if not crossing the line into, abuse.

 

[Avniel]

I'm thankful and feel blessed I have a wife I can work together with, we compromise, we share, we make sacrifices for each other.....we have a true friendship and no one is taken advantage of and no one can say I always do for you and you never do for me. That's because when it comes to her comfort and my comfort I go with her's and vice versa.

Let me ask this question then, if we as Christians don't use the bible to communicate about issues with in our marriage, within our friendships and within our professional lives.......why not just believe that Jesus Christ died for our sins and just not even read the bible. I don't understand being part of the body but not wanting to be strengthened by your spouse.

When my wife comes to me with scripture I accept it, I agree to it because I believe in the word of God. If she knows an area that I haven't read or that I am not living by then why should she not address it using scripture. Isn't God's word better then your individual opinion because He's.......God.

Proverbs 3:5
Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

Proverbs 27:17
Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.

That comes off like a secular marriage with a splash of Christianity.


Revelation 3:16
So then because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew you out of my mouth.


I understand why the use of scripture in debates and conversations bother people because it's a pride thing. The bible also says:

Hebrews 11

Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.


My wife has changed plenty of my opinions by bringing up the bible. It's a humbling thing to know your thought, theory and belief were wrong in the eyes of God. However we all have thoughts and ideas that are not inline with His. When those ideas are presented to us we need to research, pray and read.

A lot of people use the bible to bring happiness into their lives, that is really not the path of christianity. It's a path to joy through sacrifice "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live."

The most important thing we can do as Christians is love. One thing about love is it "Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;" as christians our truth comes from the word. So by saying you don't want your husband using the the bible in disagreements, you basically are saying, "if my husband knows a scripture I am unaware of I would rather be ignorant in that then actually know the scripture and see if it fits and I can implement it in my personal daily walk."

Truthfully I'd rather have a debate with a muslim then a christian that wants to have conversations and not include the only book with 100% truths.

I thank God I have a wife that will take a bible and open it up and put me on the right track. One of the reasons I am where I am today, because I've got a woman that has no problem kicking me in the butt with a word from God. It blesses me that's part of being meek.

 

[WolfGate]

I'm thankful and feel blessed I have a wife I can work together with, we compromise, we share, we make sacrifices for each other.....we have a true friendship and no one is taken advantage of and no one can say I always do for you and you never do for me. That's because when it comes to her comfort and my comfort I go with her's and vice versa.

Let me ask this question then, if we as Christians don't use the bible to communicate about issues with in our marriage, within our friendships and within our professional lives.......why not just believe that Jesus Christ died for our sins and just not even read the bible. I don't understand being part of the body but not wanting to be strengthened by your spouse.

When my wife comes to me with scripture I accept it, I agree to it because I believe in the word of God. If she knows an area that I haven't read or that I am not living by then why should she not address it using scripture. Isn't God's word better then your individual opinion because He's.......God.

Proverbs 3:5
Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

Proverbs 27:17
Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.

That comes off like a secular marriage with a splash of Christianity.


Revelation 3:16
So then because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew you out of my mouth.


I understand why the use of scripture in debates and conversations bother people because it's a pride thing. The bible also says:

Hebrews 11

Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.


My wife has changed plenty of my opinions by bringing up the bible. It's a humbling thing to know your thought, theory and belief were wrong in the eyes of God. However we all have thoughts and ideas that are not inline with His. When those ideas are presented to us we need to research, pray and read.

A lot of people use the bible to bring happiness into their lives, that is really not the path of christianity. It's a path to joy through sacrifice "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live."

The most important thing we can do as Christians is love. One thing about love is it "Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;" as christians our truth comes from the word. So by saying you don't want your husband using the the bible in disagreements, you basically are saying, "if my husband knows a scripture I am unaware of I would rather be ignorant in that then actually know the scripture and see if it fits and I can implement it in my personal daily walk."

Truthfully I'd rather have a debate with a muslim then a christian that wants to have conversations and not include the only book with 100% truths.

I thank God I have a wife that will take a bible and open it up and put me on the right track. One of the reasons I am where I am today, because I've got a woman that has no problem kicking me in the butt with a word from God. It blesses me that's part of being meek.

I agree with this. At the same time, I have seen people who try and use the Bible not for truth, but as a tool to manipulate. In reality, they aren't looking for truth in the bible, but misapplying or mistating something from the bible to get their way. I think that is what the two ladies were thinking about with their comments - my interpretation at least.

 

[HannahT]

I agree with this. At the same time, I have seen people who try and use the Bible not for truth, but as a tool to manipulate. In reality, they aren't looking for truth in the bible, but misapplying or mistating something from the bible to get their way. I think that is what the two ladies were thinking about with their comments - my interpretation at least.

Which is what they were clearly referring to when they mention someone slamming the bible down, and using it as a tool not for good...but for selfish matter of things.

That was take on it as well. Sadly, I've seen that type of behavior in others.

 

[ChristianGolfer]

I agree with this. At the same time, I have seen people who try and use the Bible not for truth, but as a tool to manipulate. In reality, they aren't looking for truth in the bible, but misapplying or mistating something from the bible to get their way. I think that is what the two ladies were thinking about with their comments - my interpretation at least.

Yes, that's what I was talking about.

Let me ask this question then, if we as Christians don't use the bible to communicate about issues with in our marriage, within our friendships and within our professional lives.......why not just believe that Jesus Christ died for our sins and just not even read the bible. I don't understand being part of the body but not wanting to be strengthened by your spouse.

When my wife comes to me with scripture I accept it, I agree to it because I believe in the word of God. If she knows an area that I haven't read or that I am not living by then why should she not address it using scripture. Isn't God's word better then your individual opinion because He's.......God.

The Scripture may be God's word, but people's understanding, interpretation and application of Scripture are often not according to God's will.

Having read and studied the Bible for many, many years, I've come to believe some things already that make me think that we need to be careful in approaching our spouses with Scripture verses to get them to change their behavior.

If my husband and I are fighting, I don't think it would be appropriate for me to start quoting Scriptures at him. In the middle of a fight it's likely that I'm being selfish. Otherwise we wouldn't be fighting. So pulling out Scripture verses to back up my side wouldn't be God-honoring. After all, love doesn't seek it's own but puts others above self.

It's the Holy Spirit's job to convict and to change people.

I think that everyone should do in their marriage what works for them. If you and your wife are okay with coming to one another with Scripture verses to correct one another...good for you. That wouldn't work well for me and my husband. We communicate our needs and our feelings with one another and we love one another. I think we would both resent it if the other started quoting Scripture in the midst of a fight.

 

[tall73]

I too am very thankful for a husband who would never use the Bible as a tool to get what he wants from me.

I am very thankful for a spouse who has rebuked me by appealing to scripture. She has not done it often. But if I am in indeed going against the Scriptures it should be pointed out if I am to live according to God's will. I love my wife, she loves me, and if she brings something up from the Scriptures I know it is because I need to hear it.

Now she has never done so on these verses. We occasionally each will reference them if we haven't been having sex in a while, just as a reminder to ourselves, because we take seriously that we should not be too long apart. It is just a reference, and not a rebuke. But if I had been withholding sex from her intentionally for some time, I would expect her to rebuke me by the Scriptures and she would be right to do so.

In the same way I have pointed out these verses to couples in counseling where one person was using sex as a bargaining tool. That is not the instruction God has given. When they see it in the Scriptures they then can respond to what God has said, whether to bring themselves into line with it or reject it.

Now to use these verses to demand sex way beyond the drive of the other is not taking the verses seriously either, because the needs of both are to be looked at, and the purpose of the verses was to prevent long periods of time with no sex. So I can see how they could be used incorrectly.

 

[tall73]

I agree with this. At the same time, I have seen people who try and use the Bible not for truth, but as a tool to manipulate. In reality, they aren't looking for truth in the bible, but misapplying or mistating something from the bible to get their way. I think that is what the two ladies were thinking about with their comments - my interpretation at least.

If my wife put a wrong interpretation I would point that out. But she doesn't do that when rebuking. She knows how to read in context.

So I am glad to have a spouse who will rebuke me by the Scriptures. Much better that she appeals to the Scriptures than her own opinion, or just gives way to my opinion. Neither her opinion or mine is inspired.

My kids have also rebuked me by the Scriptures. And you know what? It is God's word, not theirs, so I listen to it. They are not doing it to get around my authority, or to hurt me. They know I want to live by what God says and they point out when I am not. They just say, "Er, dad, Jesus says...."

What can I say to that other than, "oh yea..."

 

[tall73]

Which is what they were clearly referring to when they mention someone slamming the bible down, and using it as a tool not for good...but for selfish matter of things.

That was take on it as well. Sadly, I've seen that type of behavior in others.

So do you agree then that the following verses could be used in context by a couple to instruct them or even to appeal to a spouse, if not done for only selfish purposes?

1Co 7:1 Now concerning the matters about which you wrote: "It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman."
1Co 7:2 But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband.
1Co 7:3 The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband.
1Co 7:4 For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does.
1Co 7:5 Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

I too am very thankful for a husband who would never use the Bible as a tool to get what he wants from me.

I honestly believe such things are bordering on, if not crossing the line into, abuse.

I'm not sure abuse, just a level of pettiness, not to mention lack-of-understanding of both the role of the Bible and spirituality in general. The Bible isn't like a dictionary you slam on the table to prove you won at Scrabble. And that's what this feels like... You don't want sex? Bible says you have to. You're having sex or you're bad at your faith, which is it?

I have no time for such things. The Bible isn't your trump card in an argument we're having.