Pastors role

[TCat]

I am curious what is a Pastors role within the church aside from preaching/teaching and administering the sacraments and making hospital visits I am wondering if perhaps I have expected to much from my pastors which is why I am in a quandry about leaving my church.

 

[DaRev]

A pastor's role is primarily the spiritual leader of the congregation, the shepherd of the flock, leading and guiding the members in ways that are spiritually beneficial and keeping them from straying into dangerous areas. This is done primarily by teaching the matters of faith and doctrine and administering the means of grace. This isn't always simple or pleasant. There are times when the Law must be applied in order to keep one from straying, just as there are times when the Gospel is applied to help people see God's saving work in their lives.

 

[TCat]

ok, leading and guiding...by primarily preaching? I guess my question really has to do with whether or not is it wrong for a parisoner to actually go and ask for guidence. Is it wrong for a parisoner to activily seek spiritual wisdom by talking personally to a pastor about issues on which they are unclear, especially in dealing with their children or spouse.
I think I need to find another church but want to learn from my past recent experience and approach another church in a way which shields me from the pain I have gone through in my current cuhrch.
I guess I am thinking that I can remain where I am, be a pew sitter, stay invisible, refuse to use my gifts and focus on serving the Lord outside the church. I am getting involved in a halfway house ministry for those coming out of prison. So I will be serving.
Or I can switch churches and remain anonymous but without the stigma of failing God and being removed from mininstry because my family did not measure up... But I will be very careful not to speak to the pastor outside the Sunday handshake. I learned from that mistake, I just did not know that pastors were not to be bothered by the congregation. Tough, painful lesson learned.

 

[TCat]

I am fine with discipline, law and gospel, I hope never to be so proud that I cannot be taught, corrected and guided. Even if I disagree with someone I hope my heart will always be willing to hear anothers.
I made the mistake of asking my pastor, the one who told me I'd violated ecclisiastic authority, if it was ok for me to start a class that I co-taught last summer for Sunday School. His attitude was bruquse, short, and he told me he'd let me know. That was last month, I have heard nothing since, my friend, a church secretary told me I was likely not to be told anything just ignored til I went away.

 

[Studeclunker]

There is more to a congregation than the Pastor. There are also the Elders. If the Pastor refuses to assist you in this area, the Elders are called to do so as well. If they give you the cold shoulder, than it's likely that your cause here is lost and it's time to move on.

It may also have to do with your sex. Forgive me, but the women in the more conservative congregations are expected to follow, not lead. Therefore if you are trying to set something up on your own, this may seem pushy and obstreperous. Your Pastor may have thought it more correct for your Husband to have approached him with this. Though this attitude may seem out of place in modern society, it is quite Biblically correct. Try approaching your Pastor again. Bug him till he gives you a response. At the same time, remember to do so in a very respectful way. Lastly, make sure your Husband is with you when you do so.

 

[TCat]

Thank you Studeclunker. Actually the class I had hoped to lead again is by woman for woman only. So I doubt that is the issue and I co-led the class last year without any problems.
As for my husband, he now wants very little to do with this church. He made a judgment call for me last year and I was disciplined for it. He has been upset about that ever since but believes that there is no use discussing it with the pastors as they are not likely to listen and so there is no point. He also believes that all churches are the same, power corrupts etc. so wants nothing to do with leadership, even to the point of no longer serving in the church in various classes or ministries as he has in the past.

 

[filosofer]

A major focus for pastors is "equipping the saints" (Eph 4), which includes preaching, but especially teaching. I find that a considerable amount of my time as pastor is spent teaching others to teach others, in other words equipping the saints, using their gifts, etc. The most effective way I found is to meet regularly with the teachers of Bible classes; after a while, it was a given: no one could teach unless they agreed to meet with me for 3 hours once a month to review what they are teaching, problems they encounter, ideas, and also referral process when issues arise beyond the capability of the leader. When I explain the process, I have never had a teacher refuse this. Many, in fact, were relieved that I agreed to continue to help them grow spiritually.

Sadly, many pastors look at spiritual leadership as a control mechanism; it is anything but control, to be the spiritual leader of the congregation. For a pastor to be a true spiritual leader, he needs humility, gentleness, etc. Hey, that sounds like the fruit of the Spirit, doesn't it? Hmmmm....

 

[porterross]

There is more to a congregation than the Pastor. There are also the Elders. If the Pastor refuses to assist you in this area, the Elders are called to do so as well. If they give you the cold shoulder, than it's likely that your cause here is lost and it's time to move on.

It may also have to do with your sex. Forgive me, but the women in the more conservative congregations are expected to follow, not lead. Therefore if you are trying to set something up on your own, this may seem pushy and obstreperous. Your Pastor may have thought it more correct for your Husband to have approached him with this. Though this attitude may seem out of place in modern society, it is quite Biblically correct. Try approaching your Pastor again. Bug him till he gives you a response. At the same time, remember to do so in a very respectful way. Lastly, make sure your Husband is with you when you do so.

*emphasis mine

I can't believe you honestly think that's true, Stude and I've never heard of such an attitude being supported or tolerated in the LCMS. If I had any hint that a pastor in my church held such a view I'd be out of there without a second thought and there would be many a complaint filed, probably by my husband! What you describe isn't too shy of misogyny and it's more than a little offensive.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

*emphasis mine

I can't believe you honestly think that's true, Stude and I've never heard of such an attitude being supported or tolerated in the LCMS. If I had any hint that a pastor in my church held such a view I'd be out of there without a second thought and there would be many a complaint filed, probably by my husband! What you describe isn't too shy of misogyny and it's more than a little offensive.

actually, this is exactly how my husband and I do things. If there's something I want to do in the church, he brings it to the council and the elders, not me. I don't see anything misogynist about it, either. My husband is the spiritual head of our household, so I have no issues with him being the one who fronts these things. Of course, we are WELS, so mileage may vary around the churches, but most of the LCMS guys that I know feel the same.

 

[porterross]

Yes, Becks, that may be how WELS go about things, but not the LCMS (which is the synod I thought TCAT belongs to) and to suggest that a woman shouldn't be allowed to even approach her pastor is ludicrous and upsetting for me. There's nothing Scriptural about suggesting that she have her husband with her to even address the pastor...HER pastor...and it excuses the man's behavior by implying she doesn't exist in the church unless represented by a man.

Is that really OK? It wouldn't be with any woman in the LCMS that I've met and it has nothing to do with councils or committee structures. It's a man-made restriction gone too far and is indeed misogynistic as put forth given how TCAT's being treated.

TCAT, obviously you can imagine what my feelings are this. A pastor is supposed to feed and care for the sheep, which means leading and loving them as Christ calls them to. From what you've described recently, I'd say you're not getting that from the man filling that role in your current church and why you'd want to continue there if you have other options is a mystery to me. I'm pretty intolerant of people who abuse their positions and men who see women on a level beneath them, though, so take my opinion with that in mind.

 

[DaRev]

ok, leading and guiding...by primarily preaching? I guess my question really has to do with whether or not is it wrong for a parisoner to actually go and ask for guidence. Is it wrong for a parisoner to activily seek spiritual wisdom by talking personally to a pastor about issues on which they are unclear, especially in dealing with their children or spouse.

If you were responding to my post, you misquoted me. I didn't say "by primarily preaching", I said "primarily by teaching". Preaching is only one form of teaching in the church. Surely personal counselling and gudiance are also beneficial ways to hear and learn.

If the church you are at makes you feel as if you are wrong in approaching your pastor for guidance and counsel, then get out. You are not being adequately being fed there. It could seriously damage your faith. I've seen it before.

 

[Studeclunker]

I can't believe you honestly think that's true, Stude and I've never heard of such an attitude being supported or tolerated in the LCMS. If I had any hint that a pastor in my church held such a view I'd be out of there without a second thought and there would be many a complaint filed, probably by my husband! What you describe isn't too shy of misogyny and it's more than a little offensive.

Calm down Porter, LOL, no it's not my position. You know, I had to look up misogny up in the dictionary to be sure of what you were talking about. Yet, I've found in several LCMS and WELS congregations that this is the case. The Pastor doesn't appreciate being approached about changes or additions to classes and teaching venues by women unless their husband is present. I'm not talking about questions about lessons or the sermon. Just about teaching venues, which is what I percieved the issue to be.

I Cor. 14:33b-35a

As in all the churches of the Saints, the women should keep silence in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says. If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home...

I have never yet met a woman that quotation set well with. Frankly, I'm not too crazy about it myself. However, I've had it thrown at me from several Lutheran Pastors, both LCMS and WELS. In some ways, I discern that the Pastor is trying not to contest the man's authority in his household. I'm not sure.

Yes, Becks, that may be how WELS go about things, but not the LCMS (which is the synod I thought TCAT belongs to) and to suggest that a woman shouldn't be allowed to even approach her pastor is ludicrous and upsetting for me. There's nothing Scriptural about suggesting that she have her husband with her to even address the pastor...HER pastor...and it excuses the man's behavior by implying she doesn't exist in the church unless represented by a man.

Is that really OK? It wouldn't be with any woman in the LCMS that I've met and it has nothing to do with councils or committee structures. It's a man-made restriction gone too far and is indeed misogynistic as put forth given how TCAT's being treated.

TCAT, obviously you can imagine what my feelings are this. A pastor is supposed to feed and care for the sheep, which means leading and loving them as Christ calls them to. From what you've described recently, I'd say you're not getting that from the man filling that role in your current church and why you'd want to continue there if you have other options is a mystery to me. I'm pretty intolerant of people who abuse their positions and men who see women on a level beneath them, though, so take my opinion with that in mind.

I will agree that our friend is being treated very shabbily. Also, this pastor is a poor example of the LCMS way of belief and practice (judging by only Tcat's side of the story). As such, I agree wholeheartedly with what the Revrand said about leaving as this man will be harmful to both Tcat and her husband. Indeed, from what she says, Tcat's husband's faith has already been compromised. Thus, it seems the disease has spread from the Pastor to the Elders, or vice-versa, as often happens. Therefore, it's time... long past time, to go.

A man-made restriction? No, Porter, you aren't paying attention to your Bible. This is an attitude of the modern woman that has spread throughout the Church. However, if you look back on Church practice and tradition, you will find that this practice of a woman being subordinate to her Husband is not only Biblical, but consistant throughout Church history. I agree that Men in general have grossly abused this tradition, criminally in fact. In that, I have stated quite often that Men deserve the Women's Liberation Movement. However, that doesn't make that movement right or proper.

Misognistic, as in to hate women? No Porter, it was a way of protecting women from predation and abuse. It was supposed to be an act of love, respect, and honour, not hate. Sadly, being the fallen sons of Adam that men are, they have done exactly the thing that the whole idea was supposed to prevent.


Sorry about the long dissertation. Tcat, it's time to go. My hope is that you have a choice, unlike myself, and are able to find another congregation to transfer to. If not LCMS there are other choices, should they be available in your area. Don't be afraid to look into WELS. They're really not all that bad. Just a bit tightly laced is all.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Yes, Becks, that may be how WELS go about things, but not the LCMS (which is the synod I thought TCAT belongs to) and to suggest that a woman shouldn't be allowed to even approach her pastor is ludicrous and upsetting for me. There's nothing Scriptural about suggesting that she have her husband with her to even address the pastor...HER pastor...and it excuses the man's behavior by implying she doesn't exist in the church unless represented by a man.

But that's reading a bit into what is going on. I can approach a pastor any time I want. But when I want the church to do something, or I want to start something at my church, I should go to my husband first, and if I have no husband, then I can go to an elder.

It's not saying that women should never approach their pastor, and I'm sorry if you got that impression. But there are certain things that a woman should rely on her husband or the elders to take care of. I've done it and you know me, I'm not dependent by any means, but I believe that it is my role to let my husband handle the affairs of the church and I will help out in any capacity I can.

In TCat's situation, I wouldn't approach the pastor without my husband present. The pastor seems to have a problem with her for whatever reason, and it's not really smart for her to approach him on her own. He doesn't sound like the kind of pastor I'd want, either.

Is that really OK? It wouldn't be with any woman in the LCMS that I've met and it has nothing to do with councils or committee structures. It's a man-made restriction gone too far and is indeed misogynistic as put forth given how TCAT's being treated.

Well, remember, that was just someone's guess as to the situation. We don't know that guy has issues with her because she's a female. As I recall, the situation is much more complicated than that.

Even still, again, given that there is some form of trouble between her and the pastor, it isn't wise of her to approach him by herself.

TCAT, obviously you can imagine what my feelings are this. A pastor is supposed to feed and care for the sheep, which means leading and loving them as Christ calls them to. From what you've described recently, I'd say you're not getting that from the man filling that role in your current church and why you'd want to continue there if you have other options is a mystery to me. I'm pretty intolerant of people who abuse their positions and men who see women on a level beneath them, though, so take my opinion with that in mind.

again, you're assuming that's what his problem is.

I don't think it is, but I do think he is not serving his congregation the way he ought to serve them.