Pastoral Call Process

[Studeclunker]

Our pastor has recieved a call from a congregation in Georgia. He's accepted and will be gone in a few weeks. It just doesn't seem right that another congregation can call any pastor who's served four years or more at his current calling. Then again, I am quite new with WELS and there is a lot I still don't 'get.'

There was a lot of crying today after services. He announced it at the close of services and it was not taken well. Not even the Elders knew beforehand. I think the whole process could have been handled better by the pastor. This congregation has been struggling for two years now and now this... I'm just confused on how I feel about it.

 

[QuiltAngel]

Stude,
that is how the call process works in the LCMS too. Usually, the only people who know about the decision before it is announced is the Pastor and his family. IF the elders know beforehand, it is usually that morning or the night before.

It is a time of mixed feelings for the congregation. You know what? It is for the Pastor and his family too.

I know that we become attached to our Pastor and feel like no one else can do the job. The important thing to remember is that as long as the Pastor preaches and teaches the gospel rightly and administer the sacraments rightly, the person who is doing it does not matter.

All that being said, it takes a while to adjust to the idea that a pastor is leaving. The next few weeks will be hard on both the pastor and the congregation. You are going to miss the pastor. Yet, you will continue to be served by one of God's called people.

It is a kind of mourning process as any loss there is mourning. Will keep you and your church in my prayers as you go through this adjustment.

 

[Luther073082]

Our pastor has recieved a call from a congregation in Georgia. He's accepted and will be gone in a few weeks. It just doesn't seem right that another congregation can call any pastor who's served four years or more at his current calling. Then again, I am quite new with WELS and there is a lot I still don't 'get.'

There was a lot of crying today after services. He announced it at the close of services and it was not taken well. Not even the Elders knew beforehand. I think the whole process could have been handled better by the pastor. This congregation has been struggling for two years now and now this... I'm just confused on how I feel about it.

I talked to a LCMS pastor on OldLutheran.com and he and I both think that the ideal situation is for a head pastor to stay with a church until retirement. In fact I have at ton of respect for the guy cause apparently his church was having financial problems (They are in Michigan where everyone is having financial problems) so they apparently couldn't afford to keep paying him what they where, so instead of getting a different call from a bigger church he went and got a second job to stay at that church and support his large family. (I think he's got like 8 kids)

Also its been my experience that having stable leadership at a church makes the church healthier and stronger in the long run. I just can't see how pastors moving around churchs like college football coaches move between schools can help the churchs.

I would honestly be in support of a measure that, with some exceptions made it so churchs could only call pastors or pastorial candidates who where either assigned as assistant/associate pastors with another parish or not assigned to a parish at all. In other words, no more poaching of other church's head pastors. Now I would say one of the exceptions I would make is that pastors at churchs which can't pay them a certain amount of money & benefits (perhaps it can be based on cost of living & experience etc.) are open to be called by other churchs.

But I do disagree with the process which basically has one church poaching another's head pastor. That does nothing but transfer your problems to another church.

Stude,
that is how the call process works in the LCMS too. Usually, the only people who know about the decision before it is announced is the Pastor and his family. IF the elders know beforehand, it is usually that morning or the night before.

It is a time of mixed feelings for the congregation. You know what? It is for the Pastor and his family too.

I know that we become attached to our Pastor and feel like no one else can do the job. The important thing to remember is that as long as the Pastor preaches and teaches the gospel rightly and administer the sacraments rightly, the person who is doing it does not matter.

All that being said, it takes a while to adjust to the idea that a pastor is leaving. The next few weeks will be hard on both the pastor and the congregation. You are going to miss the pastor. Yet, you will continue to be served by one of God's called people.

It is a kind of mourning process as any loss there is mourning. Will keep you and your church in my prayers as you go through this adjustment

I have to struggle with sometimes using too much business modeling on the church. So forgive me if this seems to take an overly business like approach to the church. But for me its not really so much about the feelings, or the pastor having the capability of doing the job. Its more about stability of leadership. In my experience, churchs that retain head pastors for long periods of time just seem to do better then ones that have pastors who only stay for 5 or 10 years and move on to another call.

 

[QuiltAngel]

Excuse me, but the call process is not a business model. You can't just hire and fire at will. What you are advocating is more of a business model.

There also needs to be strong leadership within the congregation. When there is, this transition period goes very well. When there is poor leadership within the congregation, things are not good with or without a pastor.

What about situations where the members are just plain mean and nasty to a Pastor? Are they to stay for a long time?

I am sorry, but i live on the other side of the situation and I can tell you that what you are advocating is not a good plan at all.

One also needs to remember that there are many many churches where there is only one pastor, so your idea of "head" pastor won't fly in those situations.

Luther, that pastor you are speaking of does not hold the view of most pastors.

 

[alexnbethmom]

not to mention the fact that you are basically advocating squashing "the call" - God calls the pastor to a church - if you make it so that a pastor cannot take the call that God is calling him to, you are basically playing God.

God knows what's best - what's best for the congregation and what's best for the pastor.....

 

[filosofer]

Obviously, QuiltAngel and I come from the same perspective. Having been involved with congregations calling pastors for several years, I have a little experience on both sides of the coin. Of that whole thing that Stude mentioned, the only bad part was that the Elders did not know. It is customary that as soon as the pastor receives a call, he goes to the Elders and lets them know he has received it. Then the following Sunday he should tell the congregation so they can be praying about it. Then people have an opportunity to express where they are, both to the pastor and to the elders.

No one is “poaching” a pastor. We (in AALC and also in my many decades in the LCMS) only put pastors on call lists if they are interested in moving. Reasons for that can include: changed circumstances, health, changes in the congregation, etc.

There is a cycle of relationship between pastor and congregation:

0-3 years: getting to know one another (extended honeymoon). During this time the pastor is establishing his ministry, putting “money into the ministry bank”; every visit, every wedding, funeral, baptism puts more in the “bank.”

3-5 years: years of conflict, not necessarily with the pastor, but people adjust to the idea that the pastor really is staying. Here he learns how to deal with conflict and to minister to people on both sides of the conflict. Very difficult years, when he needs outside support of pastors. Sometimes he has to make difficult decisions, which means “withdrawing from the ministry bank.”

5-17 years: most effective ministry and growth (not just a numbers game).​

The tragedy is that throughout the US (not just Lutheran), the average stay for a pastor is 2 years 11 months. So a pastor moves on, and again, etc. He may have served churches for 21 years, but I tell him that he has 3 years experiences, just repeated seven times.

So, then I ask pastors who might be considering leaving a call to a congregation:

1. What have you done to develop the leadership of the congregation?
   
2. How have you established a firm faith foundation of the congregation through Bible study? Have you taught them “how to study the Bible”? Sadly many pastors teach a nine week session on one topic, then switch, and continue the pattern for years. There is no rhyme or reason, just a hodge-podge of unrelated topics.
   
3. Would this be a congregation you would like to be called to you? Or are you running away from what you have built?
   
4. Would you be on good terms with the congregation and the new pastor? In other words, have you helped the entire congregation mature?

#1-2 are critical; most pastors don’t teach the Bible, instead offering nine week sessions with varying topics with no continuity or growing depth. Teach the Bible! Likewise with leadership development. Having them pray at meetings is not leadership development. Have you as a pastor taken the one-on-one time to minister to them, taken them along on visits? Are all your leaders in weekly Bible study?

 

[Studeclunker]

Perhaps we should move this conversation to another thread? After all, the kitchen is for light conversation and this is beyond that. If a moderator would be so kind as to move it, I'd be very ameanable to it.

That said...

I have a good bit of trouble with this system. Who is the one who decides this is God's call? Why can't the congregation be given sufficent time to get the call process going for a smoother transition of leadership? It's not quite fair for the Pastor to bugger out and leave the congregation without a shepherd and guide. No, I don't trust the Elders. I have never found them to be adequate leadership for the congregation's teaching and preaching. Then again, that isn't part of the Elder's call, is it?

No, I don't want to quash the will of God. Nor should anyone. However, ours is not a God of Chaos and disorder. He is rather more marvelously ordered and brilliant of design. Thus, this human system of organization shows our own flaws. All I'm asking for is a bit more time and organization of this system. An orderly change of leadership and direction.

I can't really say this is a surprise as our Pastor dealt with a call six months ago. All the same, our congregation is at a very weak... very vulnerable stage right now. Due to the economy, we are experiancing considerable problems with the current financial situation and also our attendance is actually falling off for the first time in four years. A somewhat more orderly transition would be less... damaging.

Forgive me my whining here, I just don't like change and disorder at Church. It's my anchor in the whirl of chaos this world is. Thus when my Anchor is out of order, it leaves me feeling rather insecure.

 

[filosofer]

That’s all right, Stude, when you find that perfect church with no chaos, let me know. Of course, it wouldn’t work for me, cause I ain’t qualified to be there.

Stude wrote: “our congregation is at a very weak... very vulnerable stage right now“

That is a definite concern. That is why I ask pastors, “If you leave, is this the kind of church you would like to walk into? So what will you do to get it to that point?”

The reality is that churches are seldom “smooth.” It is made up of sinners, hurting and wounded people, aggressive people, contented people, etc. It will always be a challenge.

My heart goes out to you.

 

[Luther073082]

What Stude pointed out I think is important. How are we determining that this is God's call? Just because the Elder's rang up a guy and interviewed him and then offered him the position of pastor, and he took it, doesn't mean that its suddenly the holy will of God.

Perhaps like I said there can be exceptions, perhaps the pastor should be allowed to apply to take other calls and give a good reason as to why they want another call. But my criticism remains the same, every parish is hurt by vagabond pastors and pastors that only want to stay at a church for 5 or 10 years.

Its been my experience that churchs who've had a pastor for more then 10 years see growth in numbers and involvement within the church while those who's head pastors change every 5 to 10 years stay fairly stagnent.

And quilt, I'm aware that many churchs only have one pastor. However when they lack a head pastor and proceed to call a head pastor from another congregation they only transfer their problems to that congregation. And that helps no one.

 

[filosofer]

There more aspects to this just the congregation currently being served the pastor. The pastor may discern that the new call is one from God. When I was in that position, I spoke with several pastors that I respected, and I spoke with several lay leaders about it and we prayed about it.

There is the external call of the calling congregation. That too has to be discerned (by the congregation itself as well as the pastor).

My history is that I have always received calls to troubled congregations... Not what I personally had on my agenda. But God did. He blessed me and the congregations to deal with the trouble, move beyond, and grow the churches spiritually and numerically. Never was easy, but God was definitely at work in the whole process.

And speaking of lay leaders, at my first dual parish, the elders of the smaller congregation were so solid theologically and ecclesiastically, that I would stack them up against many pastors. They were mature men who studied the Bible daily, participated in weekly Bible studies and filled in when I traveled. Taking a call away from there was very difficult because of that maturing spiritual environment. And yes, average weekly attendance in that smaller church went from 33 to 75, in a rural area where most people thought it was dying and no hope for any growth.

My point is, we cannot sit on the outside and judge why a pastor received a call or why he accepted the call. At my last church (not the one I am serving now), when I received the call, I was 10th pastor they had called in 2½ years. It was a troubled congregation, average attendance 140 and weekly Bible study attendance 15 adults and 30 children. Within seven years we were at 250 in worship and weekly Bible study 125 adults and 75 children (80% of our worshiping community was in weekly Bible study). And even though I left 12 years ago, the congregation is still growing. That’s not me, that’s God’s work. So was it right, or “God’s will,” to leave the dual parish and accept the call to that congregation?

 

[QuiltAngel]

Its been my experience that churchs who've had a pastor for more then 10 years see growth in numbers and involvement within the church while those who's head pastors change every 5 to 10 years stay fairly stagnent.

And quilt, I'm aware that many churchs only have one pastor. However when they lack a head pastor and proceed to call a head pastor from another congregation they only transfer their problems to that congregation. And that helps no one.

The first point, is not correct. My husband was the pastor of a church where pastor's left about every three years. For the first couple of years there, things went well. Then they started nitpicking things that had nothing to do with the preaching and teaching of the Word. At one time they strongly urged him to resign (which they can not expect or ask a Pastor to do). What was his biggest offense? He had the gall to stay longer than 3 years. In fact, he was there over 10 years. What was happening to the membership? It was declining. My husband could have been Jesus himself and he still would not have been good enough. Yet, you sit here and advocate that Pastors stay and put up with the when it becomes very apparent that they would best be served by someone else?

He has served here for 12 years. Membership is also decreasing. Guess what? Population is declining. Schools are closing due to lack of students. Yet, we have a dual parish that is still very able to pay the Pastor and they do a wonderful job of supporting missionaries around the world. What can't grow here, they are growing around the world.

What problems are being transferred to another congregation? I also know of plenty of churches that thrive when Pastor's change every 5 - 10 years.

As I said, a Pastor can tell when it is best for a church to be served by another and he can also tell when it is time for himself to move on. While it is not easy to see why they are led this way, they are. Pastor's do not take calls lightly either. When they are considering a call, they are really considering two calls. The one they are currently serving and the one that wants him to serve. They really wrestle with calls.

 

[ctay]

I don't want to get in the church thing, afraid if I get started I won't stop. It sure would be nice if there was a church out there that didn't have problems or issues.

 

[QuiltAngel]

I don't want to get in the church thing, afraid if I get started I won't stop. It sure would be nice if there was a church out there that didn't have problems or issues.

That would be so nice, but as we know, this side of heaven, it won't happen.

 

[DaRev]

I would honestly be in support of a measure that, with some exceptions made it so churchs could only call pastors or pastorial candidates who where either assigned as assistant/associate pastors with another parish or not assigned to a parish at all. In other words, no more poaching of other church's head pastors.

The call of a pastor is from God. That is why we call it the "divine call". Creating some policy that would interfere with that would not be proper, nor would it jive with our theology.

 

[Studeclunker]

I understand your point Revrend and don't wish to pick a fight. However, that said...

Your comment can be taken to be rather convenient. For example: I used to be a member of an admittedly problematic congregation who had two warring camps. A Pastor was called who was detested by the smaller camp and the larger forced his installment. The man was a disaster. Suddenly, two years later he 'recieved a call' from his previous congregation and was gone in less than two weeks. The smaller camp were glad to be quit of him. However, it struck me that this man who demanded so much coming in would bugger out using the 'divine call' as his excuse when the going got rough.

As far as the current congregation is concerned; I am not sure what is going to happen. The Congregation was growing and prospering up till last year and now we are sliding downhill. It's sad to see such a vibrant congregation fizzle out like this. Added to the problems is this call that takes out our Pastor. This is only going to make the problems worse.

I do agree, to a limited point, with your statement though. All the same, I wonder if the Lord is making some of these calls?

 

[PreachersWife2004]

To hear the Divine Call being called "poaching" makes me ill. I'm just gonna get that out there while I can.

My husband has received two calls on top of his assignment call. The first one he declined, the second one was after we were married and he accepted that one. We are currently serving that call now. The members at his old church were sad to see him leave, but knew it was for the best. We needed to be out of Detroit and we needed a call that could best help my husband support his family.

When he received the call, he let the elders know right away, and in most cases that I am aware of, the pastor receiving the call let the elders and the congregation know almost before the rest of the family found out. I believe, therefore, that it may be unusual for the elders to be surprised at a call. They may be surprised at the decision, however. Our congregation knew about it, and we prayed about it in church until Matt reached his decision.

Folks, this is NOT poaching. Calls are taken very seriously within the WELS. We joke and call them "job offers" but it's so much more than that. Pastors have to weigh TWO calls at that time - the call they're currently serving and the new call. There is SO much consideration that goes into them. My husband asks himself whether he believes he has done everything he can do at his current congregation, plus all the things that people like Filo mentioned. There is never an "easy" answer to a call, even in cases like ours where we were pleading for a call because we needed to get out of Detroit. We STILL had quite a lot to consider because we were leaving family and friends behind, and because of our boys' schooling options, etc.

Please do not degrade the Divine Calling process by calling it "poaching". Churches will continue to preach the truth whether the pastor has been there for 4 or 40 years.

 

[QuiltAngel]

Where is our focus? The Cross or the man in the pulpit?

We become attached to the man in the pulpit and when he accepts a call, we wonder how we will go on. We need to focus on the Cross and know that He will provide. The message does not change with who is in the pulpit.

 

[Studeclunker]

Where is our focus? The Cross or the man in the pulpit?

We become attached to the man in the pulpit and when he accepts a call, we wonder how we will go on. We need to focus on the Cross and know that He will provide. The message does not change with who is in the pulpit.

A very valid point that...

Well, we found out yesterday that the pastor will be with us till late November. Thus, we have the time for the call process to proceed and still only deal with a pastorless congregation for a minimal time.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

A very valid point that...

Well, we found out yesterday that the pastor will be with us till late November. Thus, we have the time for the call process to proceed and still only deal with a pastorless congregation for a minimal time.

I think this is what scares a congregation the most - finding a new pastor. In the WELS, we have a shortage of calls, but pastors still do turn down a call even in the face of losing their current call because they may not feel it is the right call. Simply accepting a call for the sake of leaving (like we might've faced when we were in Detroit) isn't a good thing. I know that us leaving placed some fear in our congregation because they figured it would be difficult to get someone into their church - it took them three calls before someone said yes, but someone DID say yes.

I'll be praying for your congregation, Stude. Just bear in mind that God takes cares of these things for us...

 

[Studeclunker]

Yes... one of the hardest things He asks us to do; let go and let God.