Pastor leaves Adventism

TrustAndObey · Aug 10, 2007

Adventtruth said:
The Adventist church I was apart of was Very legalistic...no grace. It was just like the church NightEternal discribed, and still is. After teaching Sabbath school for over 15 years and trying to rid the local church of its legalism, it was of no use. I had to get out of there. But before that I never bought into the Sabbath saves, end times dividing wall, seal of God thing. But I knew I was missing something and after being pointed in another direction concerning the work of Jesus, I went back and studied the covenants and saw it plainly. Christ is the true Sabbath of God...

AT

I can honestly say that if I belonged to a church like the one Night described (and now you), I would've ran for the hills too.

Some people really do not see that they do more harm than good and it bothers me. Just like hearing about things some women do making me wish I could change genders.

So was it more the people or was it the doctrine?

You're absolutely decided that the Sabbath commandment is null?

djconklin · Aug 10, 2007

I'm sorry to hear about your experience. But, having been in a somewhat similar situation myself I know that there's more than two sides to everything. So, when I read you saying "But before that I never bought into the Sabbath saves," well that's true. Luckily, I've never heard of such a thing in the two dozen or so churches that I have been in. But, at the same time I think the Bible is quite clear that in the end times there will be a division between the true and false believers--otherwise there'd be no need for God to say: "Come out of her, my people." And common sense tells us that the Sabbath is the seal of God, while the HS is the seal of God on the believer. I had to point out on a different froum the 30+ different definitions that there are for the word "seal" and that the critics were arbitrarily limiting themselves (and us) to only one--which was patently absurd--this reflects the level of thought that they put into the criticism.

I went back and studied the covenants and saw it plainly.

I'd like to hear more about your study--perhaps a different thread--I took a class under Damsteegt ab't the covenants.

Christ is the true Sabbath of God...

You could say that there's two Sabbaths--the day and the relationship we are to have with God. The former symbolizes the latter.

Exodus 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

Ezekiel 20:12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them.

Adventtruth · Aug 10, 2007

TrustAndObey said:
I can honestly say that if I belonged to a church like the one Night described (and now you), I would've ran for the hills too.

Some people really do not see that they do more harm than good and it bothers me. Just like hearing about things some women do making me wish I could change genders.

So was it more the people or was it the doctrine?

You're absolutely decided that the Sabbath commandment is null?

Thanks for your kindness.

It was more the people. The head Elder told me if I commited one sin any given day, I was lost until I confessed it. I took some of my concerns to the pastor about the legalism and no grace, he avoided me, did not want to deal with me. The sermons where all law, no grace.

After going all week as a striving christian trusting Christ, I'd go to church and here a sermon, that basically slapped me and everyone else up side our heads becasue we where not perfect. Never ever did we hear sermons about what Jesus has done for us. It was always about what we had better do. This was the trend in the last 5 years in the small town I live in. If the gospel had been their, I would have stayed

AT

Adventtruth · Aug 10, 2007

djconklin said:
I'm sorry to hear about your experience. But, having been in a somewhat similar situation myself I know that there's more than two sides to everything. So, when I read you saying "But before that I never bought into the Sabbath saves," well that's true. Luckily, I've never heard of such a thing in the two dozen or so churches that I have been in. But, at the same time I think the Bible is quite clear that in the end times there will be a division between the true and false believers--otherwise there'd be no need for God to say: "Come out of her, my people." And common sense tells us that the Sabbath is the seal of God, while the HS is the seal of God on the believer. I had to point out on a different froum the 30+ different definitions that there are for the word "seal" and that the critics were arbitrarily limiting themselves (and us) to only one--which was patently absurd--this reflects the level of thought that they put into the criticism.

I'd like to hear more about your study--perhaps a different thread--I took a class under Damsteegt ab't the covenants.

You could say that there's two Sabbaths--the day and the relationship we are to have with God. The former symbolizes the latter.

Exodus 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

Ezekiel 20:12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them.

Thanks for the love DJ...I will have to get back to you later...I have to sign off for now.

Blessings

AT

djconklin · Aug 10, 2007

You're welcome!

And I'm really serious ab't the covenant thing--I think that would help on a couple of other points where people are misguided: 10C = the covenant God made with Israel.

The head Elder told me if I commited one sin any given day, I was lost until I confessed it.

Without worrying about the head elder (personally all of them are on my "hit list"--but, that's something else), think it through. And the pastor really needs help in what it means to be a pastor--lot's have had very poor training, only undergrad and no senior pastor to guide them--more the sink-or-swim approach--that's why we lose way too many pastors and then the critics claim "They were forced out because they taught grace!"

TrustAndObey · Aug 10, 2007

Adventtruth said:
Thanks for your kindness.

It was more the people. The head Elder told me if I commited one sin any given day, I was lost until I confessed it. I took some of my concerns to the pastor about the legalism and no grace, he avoided me, did not want to deal with me. The sermons where all law, no grace.

After going all week as a striving christian trusting Christ, I'd go to church and here a sermon, that basically slapped me and everyone else up side our heads becasue we where not perfect. Never ever did we hear sermons about what Jesus has done for us. It was always about what we had better do. This was the trend in the last 5 years in the small town I live in. If the gospel had been their, I would have stayed

AT

I wish that you could come to my church one Sabbath, or the one SassySDA goes to. Seriously, I think if you met my pastor and all the loving people in my church you'd see that so many Adventists obey God out of love and humbly accept Jesus' free gift with rejoicing.

We do have a few stiffies (that's what I call them) though. One older couple "adopted" me and my husband and we went to their house one afternoon for lunch.

I realized that afternoon that some of the older generation are a little more blunt than I'd ever be (like telling someone the state of the dead RIGHT after they've lost someone they love).

He was a Northerner though....haha. They're a different breed than us Southerners anyway.

I think every denomination and every church has a "church lady" person, don't you?

maco · Aug 10, 2007

The commandment in the NT is to love God and love one another. It in this that we are to perfect and get better at. When we love as God loves we will be perfect as He is perfect.

Matthew 5:46-48 "For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? "And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? "Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

This is not a new commandment, but rather, one that God has been saying from the begining.

1 John 2:7-8 Dear brothers, I am not writing out a new rule for you to obey, for it is an old one you have always had, right from the start. You have heard it all before. Yet it is always new, and works for you just as it did for Christ; and as we obey this commandment, to love one another, the darkness in our lives disappears and the new light of life in Christ shines in.

When we truly begin to perfect our love we will know the abundant life and people will begin to see it in us.

It seems to me that the whole theme of the NT is relationship founded on and directed from the words of Jesus.

Matthew 17:5 While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!''

Jesus taught the spirit of the law. The spirit of the law is love from a pure conscience.

1 Timothy 1:5-7 Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith, from which some, having strayed, have turned aside to idle talk, desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say nor the things which they affirm.

Keeping the spirit of the law will manifest itself in not do's and don'ts, but rather, in our relationships with others. Listen to how John speaks of not sinning and practicing righteousness.

1 John 3:9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Whoever is born of God cannot sin. In the NT what does this look like? John tells us in the following verses.

1 John 3:10-12 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother's righteous.

I have always found this very interesting that the first murder in the Bible was commited because of the way someone worshiped.

Keeping the Sabbath should be and must be because we love God and if it is, who cares what others do. Why do I say, who cares what others do, because if they don't love God and desire to remember the Sabbath then it doesn't matter if they keep the Sabbath or not and if they love God they won't do as Cain did.

TrustAndObey · Aug 10, 2007

Maco, where have you been?

djconklin · Aug 10, 2007

He was a Northerner though....haha. They're a different breed than us Southerners anyway.

Hey! I'm one of dem dar Yankees!

Good thing we have the occupation army (oops, wasn't supposed to let out) sittin' on ya! Make it easier to whoop ya agin!

djconklin · Aug 10, 2007

I have always found this very interesting that the first murder in the Bible was commited because of the way someone worshiped.

Keeping the Sabbath should be and must be because we love God and if it is, who cares what others do. Why do I say, who cares what others do, because if they don't love God and desire to remember the Sabbath then it doesn't matter if they keep the Sabbath or not and if they love God they won't do as Cain did.

Very good, Maco!

RC_NewProtestants · Aug 10, 2007

djconklin said:
That wasn't the thrust of his doctorate.

This is a quite common myth. They did in their writings about them:

1) one is on stone; the other is not.
2) one is placed inside the Ark under the Mercy seat; the other is rolled up and placed outside as a tesimony.
3) one was written by Godl the other was not.
4) The moral law is based on the moral principle of love; the ceremonial aren't.

Many other points could be shown as well.

That is funny DJ, so in your interpretation the 10 commanments are the moral law and the other 600 are the ceremonial. Which by the way would include love your neighbor and love God.

But it is a good example of just how the subjective division is made of moral and ceremonial is made, not with any Biblical or historical documentation but with simple gratuitous assertions.

djconklin · Aug 10, 2007

and the other 600 are the ceremonial.

I never said that. In fact, if you had asked about the 613 laws I could have told you that most of them are simply "expansions" of the 10C--see http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm for the list; note that laws 3-5 cover not using God's name in vain.

But it is a good example of just how the subjective division is made of moral and ceremonial is made, not with any Biblical or historical documentation but with simple gratuitous assertions.

The above is an example of how the evidence is simply dismissed with a bit of hand-waving and making red-herring assertions that are unsubstantiated with any sort of fact--kind of like evolution proponents.

RC_NewProtestants · Aug 11, 2007

You did not give any evidence DJ, did you not think that the covenant in stone was stored inside the ark and on the side contained all the laws which include the 10 commandments as well.

I am sorry you supplied such poorly reasoned evidence but you did and you have to live with it, I merely point out the errors of your statement.

djconklin · Aug 12, 2007

You did not give any evidence

If you think that I'm going to type in all 613 that can be found at the link I gave (repeat just for you: http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm) just because you are apparently too lazy to click on it then you are sorely mistaken. I even told you specific examples to look at. It isn't that hard.

did you not think that the covenant in stone was stored inside the ark and on the side contained all the laws which include the 10 commandments as well.

There is no evidence that the covenant was written on stone by God and placed inside the Ark.

I am sorry you supplied such poorly reasoned evidence but you did and you have to live with it, I merely point out the errors of your statement.

I'm not the one with egg on my face.

Moriah_Conquering_Wind · Aug 12, 2007

The "sinless perfection" thing is a lie, a trap and a noose.
There is a perfection which has to do with the mystery of God being finished in the days of the Seventh Angel.
That mystery is elsewhere defined: Christ in You the Hope of Glory.

Christ in you, what would that look like?

It would change your understanding of God doing a "strange act" for one thing. You might realize that there's nothing "strange" about God doing precisely what humans have expected and lusted for Him to do (in their own selfish conceits and graspings) for hundreds of years -- and start looking for the REAL meaning ... for starters.

That for starters, yes, and then searching out how you (Christ in you) would be a viable part of that, or could be..... a little ditty I have heard sung known as the Song of Moses and of the Lamb comes to mind here .....

(*scatters seed joyfully*)
(*hopes for ready ground*)

RC_NewProtestants · Aug 12, 2007

djconklin said:
There is no evidence that the covenant was written on stone by God and placed inside the Ark.

I'm not the one with egg on my face.

Originally DJ wrote:
2) one is placed inside the Ark under the Mercy seat; the other is rolled up and placed outside as a tesimony.

Now a couple days later he claims there is no evidence that the ark of the covenant had the covenant in it. It makes me wonder why I even bother talking to DJ, I guess it is just so that people won't believe the theological junk he pedals.

NightEternal · Aug 12, 2007

This thread is going way off the rails.

Back to Greg's letter. Here are the portions that jumped out at me:

During the summer we were struck with the lack of spiritual vitality in all of the Adventist churches we visited. While the people were sincere, there was such a dearth of life it was depressing. It was almost as if they were just going through the motions of “doing church”. The Sunday churches were the other way around. With the exception of one church we visited, all of them had such life and joy that it was contagious. We would rejoice when we were in these churches of various denominations or independent communities. When we would visit the SDA churches, we would get so sad and depressed. I remember praying, "Why, Lord, if the Sabbath is so significant and part of your moral law that is binding on all Christians, why are you clearly blessing other churches, while the Adventist churches are, at best, maintaining?"

Indeed. Why is this? Especially in North America, we are plagued with dead and dying churches. Clearly something is not right. What are we doing wrong?

We have never seen an Adventist church truly dedicated to applying the writings of EGW that is a vibrant, alive, growing, happy church community. The responsibility for this falls directly on the shoulders of EGW. Surely a church with 100,000 pages of “inspired” writings should have an even greater grasp on the Good News than other churches.

You would think so. I admit that perfectionism and fear-mongering is a major factor to blame for the state of many of our churches. But that cannot be the only culprit. Even in the absence of both, the majority of our larger churches cannot seem to break past the 2000 to 3000 mark.

Adventism should be experiencing major growth here in North America. What's the problem? Is it that SDA theology is not conducive to the mega-church phenomenon?

mva1985 · Aug 12, 2007

NightEternal said:
We have never seen an Adventist church truly dedicated to applying the writings of EGW that is a vibrant, alive, growing, happy church community. The responsibility for this falls directly on the shoulders of EGW. Surely a church with 100,000 pages of inspired writings should have an even greater grasp on the Good News than other churches.

Adventism should be experiencing major growth here in North America. What's the problem? Is it that SDA theology is not conducive to the mega-church phenomenon?

I have seen Adventists churches that truly believe in the writings of EGW that have been vibrant and growing churches.

Question why does SDA theology have to be conducive to mega-church phenomenon?

NightEternal · Aug 12, 2007

Any message that professes to lift up Christ and the truth of His word should be attractive and appealing. People should be flooding through the doors at an unprecedented rate. They should be drawn to us like moths to a flame. It is inexcusable for an SDA church to be struggling with 40 on the books and 20 attending like so many I have seen in this country. Most of our growth that we do experience here in North America can be attributed to 'sheep stealing' from other churches.

Again I ask, if we have such a special, exciting end-time message, where are all the unchurched people? Why are they not flocking to us?

NightEternal · Aug 12, 2007

Some more good points:

We did the evangelistic meetings, etc. I became increasingly uncomfortable with the traditional evangelistic methods, which focused on last-day events and prophetic interpretation. I felt my calling was to reach people with the Gospel of Jesus Christ, to lead them to Him as their Savior, and help them learn to live in relationship with Him. What I encountered mostly in the traditional approach was targeted at people already in a church somewhere. The sessions only had one or two nights dedicated to the Gospel, and the rest to our distinctive doctrines. I felt much of the methodology of hiding our name and using a public hall was deceptive. Much of the content of the seminars and series was based on proof texts that I knew were suspect. They were not supported by context.

Maybe it is time to re-think our evangelistic seminar approach. I know of some evangelists who have made it a point to preach about Christ and salvation only for the first four or five meetings and then get into the other stuff. I have conducted meetings myself and this was the approach I used.

I don't know. Obviously we need to re-think our traditional approaches, because what we are doing now is not reaching the desired demographic.

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