Passover on 14 Nisan or 15 Nisan ?

[banish'd]

Do Messianic Jews keep the Passover on (15 Nisan) like today's modern Hebrews?

Or, do they keep a Biblical Passover starting at Sundown on Sunday, March 28, 2010 with Passover being on Monday, 14 Nisan 5770

(Exodus 12:6) And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.

 

[Tishri1]

I think its sundown the 14 for family and many celebrate the 15th as well with others and their Shul(or some do it the other way around even depending on their own traditions)

 

[lifeinlavender]

We follow the Karaite dates. Karaite Korner - Home of the World Karaite Movement!

 

[miketemple2008]

This is a great answer to the question taken from the Karaite site 'Karaitekorner'

Beginning or End of the 14th?


The Torah commands that the Passover sacrifice be brought "In the First Month on the Fourteenth Day of the Month between the two evenings" (Lev 23,5). It is unclear from this verse whether what is being referred to is the period of dusk at the beginning of the 14th or the period of dusk at the end of the 14th. Lev 23:6 continues that the Feast of Unleavened Bread is "on the Fifteenth Day of this month". From this verse it appears that the Passover Sacrifice is to be brought at sunset at the end of the 14th and eaten on the night of the 15th. This is confirmed by Dt 16:4, which commands us regarding the Passover Sacrifice: "and there shall not remain of the meat that you slaughter at evening on the first day until the morning." We see that the entire Paschal lamb must be consumed on the following night it is slaughtered and none of it may be left over until the morning (see also Ex 12:10,22). For our purposes what is significant is that the verse describes the Passover sacrifice as being slaughtered "at evening on the first day".
The passage in Dt 16:1-8 is talking about the Feast of Unleavened Bread and there can be no doubt that "the first day" in v.4 refers to the first day of Unleavened Bread. We have already seen in Lev 23:6 that the First Day of Unleavened Bread falls out on the 15th of the First Month. When we look at Lev 23:5-6 and Dt 16:4 together it becomes clear that the Passover Sacrifice is brought at the end of the 14th of the First Month between the two evenings and eaten that same evening on the 15th of the First Month. The period of "between the two evenings" is reckoned as both the end of the 14th (Lev 23:5) and the beginning of the 15th (Dt 16:4)!
It is not unusual for the Torah to refer to "such and such a date at evening" and to mean the evening that ends that day. In Lev 23:27 we learn that the Day of Atonement occurs on the 10th day of the Seventh Month. A few verses later the Torah makes clear what is meant by the 10th day: "and you shall afflict your souls on the ninth of the month at evening, from evening to evening you shall observe your Sabbath" (Lev 23:32). So we see that to fast on the 10th day means to fast from sunset on the 9th until the following sunset. In this verse "the ninth at evening" refers to the onset of evening at the end of the 9th, not the beginning! So the fast of the Day of Atonement on the 10th of the month runs from sunset ending the 9th until sunset ending the 10th (see also Ex 12:18). Similarly, the 14th between the two evenings in v.5 of the same chapter refers to the end of the 14th, not the beginning, as confirmed by Dt 16:4.
"and there shall not remain of the meat that you slaughter at evening on the first day until morning" Dt 16:4

 

[lifeinlavender]

This is a great answer to the question taken from the Karaite site 'Karaitekorner'

Beginning or End of the 14th?


The Torah commands that the Passover sacrifice be brought "In the First Month on the Fourteenth Day of the Month between the two evenings" (Lev 23,5). It is unclear from this verse whether what is being referred to is the period of dusk at the beginning of the 14th or the period of dusk at the end of the 14th. Lev 23:6 continues that the Feast of Unleavened Bread is "on the Fifteenth Day of this month". From this verse it appears that the Passover Sacrifice is to be brought at sunset at the end of the 14th and eaten on the night of the 15th. This is confirmed by Dt 16:4, which commands us regarding the Passover Sacrifice: "and there shall not remain of the meat that you slaughter at evening on the first day until the morning." We see that the entire Paschal lamb must be consumed on the following night it is slaughtered and none of it may be left over until the morning (see also Ex 12:10,22). For our purposes what is significant is that the verse describes the Passover sacrifice as being slaughtered "at evening on the first day".
The passage in Dt 16:1-8 is talking about the Feast of Unleavened Bread and there can be no doubt that "the first day" in v.4 refers to the first day of Unleavened Bread. We have already seen in Lev 23:6 that the First Day of Unleavened Bread falls out on the 15th of the First Month. When we look at Lev 23:5-6 and Dt 16:4 together it becomes clear that the Passover Sacrifice is brought at the end of the 14th of the First Month between the two evenings and eaten that same evening on the 15th of the First Month. The period of "between the two evenings" is reckoned as both the end of the 14th (Lev 23:5) and the beginning of the 15th (Dt 16:4)!
It is not unusual for the Torah to refer to "such and such a date at evening" and to mean the evening that ends that day. In Lev 23:27 we learn that the Day of Atonement occurs on the 10th day of the Seventh Month. A few verses later the Torah makes clear what is meant by the 10th day: "and you shall afflict your souls on the ninth of the month at evening, from evening to evening you shall observe your Sabbath" (Lev 23:32). So we see that to fast on the 10th day means to fast from sunset on the 9th until the following sunset. In this verse "the ninth at evening" refers to the onset of evening at the end of the 9th, not the beginning! So the fast of the Day of Atonement on the 10th of the month runs from sunset ending the 9th until sunset ending the 10th (see also Ex 12:18). Similarly, the 14th between the two evenings in v.5 of the same chapter refers to the end of the 14th, not the beginning, as confirmed by Dt 16:4.
"and there shall not remain of the meat that you slaughter at evening on the first day until morning" Dt 16:4

 

[Gnostophorrion]

You can check the calendar at Judaism 101.

My guess its 14th nisan.

 

[miketemple2008]

Using scripture to interperet the difficulties in......scripture it is the end of the 14th right before sundown via post #4. This method uses the ancient/original practice of moon observance in the Holy Land. The other persuasion is using the more modern precalculated method at Judaism 101. Whichever your heart desires. One is sure a whole lot easier, I'll let you guess which.

 

[dvd_holc]

I think a good translation that I have read for "evening" in this passage with the more common meaning of "twilight".

 

[Norbert L]

Here's an interesting article about Passover dates. Although it isn't written by a Messianic, for all intents the writer would be labeled a quartodeciman, which is someone who follows the biblical date of Nisan the 14th and not traditions of men.

http://www.servantsnews.com/PDF/pascon01.pdf

I'd be interested in hearing what some Messianics have to say about his argument, seeing that I'm not all that clever to follow everything thing he says.

 

[miketemple2008]

Thanks Norbert, very good article! Although I did not read all of it just the part pertaining to this OP, I found it very good and consistant with a between the evenings interpretation of passover sacrifice in the evening between the 14th and 15th of Nisan.

 

[miketemple2008]

Also, I found the Passover does NOT equal the Last Supper argument to be very well laid out and interesting.

 

[psalms 91]

I will be doing the last supper on the 14th of Nisan and the Egytian passover on the 15th. They are not the same. At the last supper Jesus left immediately after and Passover is when He died for l;amb could only be sacrificied at a certain time.

 

[miketemple2008]

Egyptian passover?

 

[Lulav]

The Passover lambs were killed at approx 3pm on the day of Passover which would have been 21 hours after the 14th began. They needed to be bleed and skinned then needed to be taken back to their place in Jerusalem where the family was celebrating the Passover and roasted which takes some time to do a whole lamb. The earliest I've been able to find it being done was at 2pm and that was if Passover eve fell on Friday. By the time the Passover lamb was ready to eat it was now sundown and the beginning of the 15th, a holy sabbath and the first day of unleavened bread. That is how the Passover is eaten with the unleavened bread as well as the bitter herbs according to the commandment. If it was eaten on the 14th that would make 8 days of eating unleavened bread and not what the commandment requires.

 

[Ben007]

Do Messianic Jews keep the Passover on (15 Nisan) like today's modern Hebrews?

Or, do they keep a Biblical Passover starting at Sundown on Sunday, March 28, 2010 with Passover being on Monday, 14 Nisan 5770

(Exodus 12:6) And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.

Modern Hebrews do not keep Passover on the 15th of Nisan. We keep Passover on the 14th of Nisan. It has been so since we left Egypt, thousands of years ago. (Lev. 23:5)

 

[psalms 91]

Is that rabbinical teaching or how God laid it out?

 

[psalms 91]

I agree as I am aware of the times and keep the sabbeth as G-d laid it out. We celebrated The Lords Supper the 14th and the Passover the 15th. Peace be unto you.

 

[Ben007]

Is that rabbinical teaching or how God laid it out?

Is Torah Rabbinical teaching? Yes, because the Rabbis teach what is written in the Torah. I quoted Leviticus, didn't I?

 

[Ben007]

ב"ה​

That Pesach starts on the fifteenth of Nissan is not a tradition of men - it's how the above scripture lays it out. The fourteenth is a semi-holiday in which work ceases so that we may prepare for Pesach. The fourteenth is spent burning leftover khametz in the evening or early morning, sacrificing the lamb and preparing it for the Seder, and other final preparations so that on the evening of the fourteenth, which is actually the beginning of the fifteenth, we can enter into the Festival of Matzah appropriately.

~ Rav

Hey Rav, hold on right there. I don't know what you are talking about. Just don't tell me that I have been wrong all my life because I have always celebrated the Seder Meal on the evening of the 14th of Nisan, which is the first day of Passover.

The 15th of Nisan is also celebrated in the Diaspora, but not in Israel. In Israel, the 15th of Nisan, according to the original in Hebrew, was a day to celebrate the feast of unleavened bread, which was a pilgrimage feast. (Lev. 23:5,6; Num. 28:17) After the Temple was destroyed, this pilgrimage feast stopped being celebrated.

The point though is that the first day of Passover is the 14th of Nisan and not the 15th. Sorry!

 

[anisavta]

Is Torah Rabbinical teaching? Yes, because the Rabbis teach what is written in the Torah. I quoted Leviticus, didn't I?

Is Rabbinical teaching always Torah? Jury's still out on that one.