Passover For Christians

Clare73 · Jan 18, 2022

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
Thou shalt not eat of the fruit...they ate...sin....death...very simple...

The death of Adam who disobeyed God's command is not the question of Romans 5:12-15.

That was explained.

Please deal with what guilt of sin caused the deaths of those between Adam and Moses when there was no law to sin against to make them guilty of sin.

Clare73 · Jan 18, 2022

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
Nothing you wrote has any bearing on my point...

Your point was about justness.

It bears on the justness of God regarding our guilt of Adam's sin, which is no more unjust than God accounting righteousness to the unrighteous (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3). . .which is part of the revelation of the passage.

Clare73 · Jan 18, 2022

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
What is telling is that you are even asking such a thing LOL!

Are you avoiding again?

Clare73 · Jan 18, 2022

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
Born of water and of spirit...come on, really? We are born...we die...then we are born again...it is the second death that we must avoid...

Was the rebirth of the thief on the cross of both water and spirit?

Clare73 · Jan 18, 2022

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
No, he was not taught correctly. BTW, did you read what you wrote? Death is the CONSEQUENCE OF SIN. Sin is THE TRANSGRESSION OF THE LAW. You say without law there is no sin...and you say there was no law between Adam and Moses...SO...how did they sin if there was no law???

Precisely. . .you are grasping Paul here very well.

That is exactly the question he poses in the passage Romans 5:12-15.

You said ALL sinned yet then you say all died
Paul states:
all sinned (Romans 5:12),
where there is no law there is no sin (Romans 5:13),
no one sinned, yet all died (Romans 5:14),
of what sin were they guilty (Romans 5:12)?

(btw, WHO did not sin?).

Those who had no law to sin against. . .all those between Adam and Moses (Romans 5:13b)

The sin kills you, not the guilt...sin comes first.

Precisely. . .and Paul's question is: which sin?
There was no law to sin against, and where there is no law, there is no sin (Romans 5:13b).

So what sin were they guilty of which caused their deaths?

ChetSinger · Jan 18, 2022

Clare73 said:
And you were taught correctly, according to apostolic teaching of the NT.

In this case I think the Eastern church has got it right. A consequence of the Western view is the need for the Immaculate Conception. Because how could a guilty Mary give birth to an innocent Jesus?

Clare73 said:
And that is the issue Paul is opening up for us in Romans 5:13-15; .e., what caused us to be born "mortal," which is a sentence to death.
We are born under the sentence to death, we don't come under it after birth,
we are by nature objects of wrath (we are born with our nature)--Ephesians 2:3.
Why were we born under this sentence?

Paul begins with the facts of the issue:

death is the consequences of sin (Romans 6:23)
sin is transgression of the law (1 John 3:4),
where there is no law there is no sin (Romans 5:13b),
there was no law between Adam and Moses, yet all sinned (Romans 5:13b,
demonstrated by the fact that all died, even those who did not sin (Romans 5:14).
So how does that work?
The guilt of what sin caused their death?
What is that all about?

And he answers that question in the rest of the chapter, with further revelation regarding God's purpose in Christ.

Much of what you've written I'm fine with. But if you think we're born guilty, does your church baptize infants? Maybe it should.

If you're interested, here's a link to a scholar whose teachings I like. He's a Protestant who argues the Eastern view regarding Romans 5, and here he talks about it. What he calls the 'traditional' view is the Western view.

Romans 5:12 - Dr. Michael Heiser

Yeshua HaDerekh · Jan 18, 2022

Clare73 said:
Precisely. . .you are grasping Paul here very well.

So what sin were they guilty of which caused their deaths?

Yes I am but you are not! i already proved you wrong...read genesis. YOU said ALL sinned...so YOU tell ME! LOL

Clare73 · Jan 18, 2022

ChetSinger said:
In this case I think the Eastern church has got it right. A consequence of the Western view is the need for the Immaculate Conception. Because how could a guilty Mary give birth to an innocent Jesus?

Not too sure what that has to do with our discussion. . .

Much of what you've written I'm fine with. But if you think we're born guilty, does your church baptize infants? Maybe it should.

Isn't the baptism of rebirth for believers?

If you're interested, here's a link to a scholar whose teachings I like. He's a Protestant who argues the Eastern view regarding Romans 5, and here he talks about it. What he calls the 'traditional' view is the Western view.

Romans 5:12 - Dr. Michael Heiser

Thanks. . .but the problem with that is we cannot respond to one another's exegesis.

Yeshua HaDerekh · Jan 18, 2022

Clare73 said:
Please deal with what guilt of sin caused the deaths of those between Adam and Moses when there was no law to sin against to make them guilty of sin.

Answer why is Yeshua called the 2nd Adam????????? Here we go again...sin produces the guilt, not the other way around!

Yeshua HaDerekh · Jan 18, 2022

Clare73 said:
Was the rebirth of the thief on the cross of both water and spirit?

ABSOLUTELY! He was born...yes? He died...yes?

Yeshua HaDerekh · Jan 18, 2022

Clare73 said:
Are you avoiding again?

Yes I am avoiding telling you of my astonishment with your lack of understanding...

Yeshua HaDerekh · Jan 18, 2022

Clare73 said:
Your point was about justness.

It bears on the justness of God regarding our guilt of Adam's sin, which is no more unjust than God accounting righteousness to the unrighteous (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3). . .which is part of the revelation of the passage.

We are not guilty of Adam's sin...Adam's sin brought death into the world...we suffer the consequences of it...we die also...

Clare73 · Jan 18, 2022

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
Yes I am but you are not! i already proved you wrong...read genesis.
YOU said ALL sinned...so YOU tell ME! LOL

PAUL said:
all sinned (Romans 5:12),
where there is no law there is no sin (Romans 5:13),
no one sinned between Adam and Moses, and yet all died because of sin (Romans 5:14),
of what sin were they guilty that caused all to die?

If Romans 5:12-15 is too confusing to you, we don't have to pursue it.

Clare73 · Jan 18, 2022

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
Answer why is Yeshua called the 2nd Adam????????? Here we go again...sin produces the guilt, not the other way around!

Another question does not answer my question.

Clare73 · Jan 18, 2022

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
ABSOLUTELY! He was born...yes? He died...yes?

How does that answer what is the water of the thief's rebirth?

Clare73 · Jan 18, 2022

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
Yes I am avoiding telling you of my astonishment with your lack of understanding...

Would that have anything to do with not answering my questions?

Carl Emerson · Jan 18, 2022

Minister Monardo said:
Yeshua's body was NOT broken.
John 19:
31 Therefore, because it was the Preparation Day, that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. 32 Then the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first and of the other who was crucified with Him. 33 But when they came to Jesus and saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs. 34 But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out. 35 And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you may believe. 36 For these things were done that the Scripture should be fulfilled, “Not one of His bones shall be broken.” 37 And again another Scripture says, “They shall look on Him whom they pierced.”

1 Corinthians 11:24
King James Version

24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

Clare73 · Jan 18, 2022

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
We are not guilty of Adam's sin...Adam's sin brought death into the world...we suffer the consequences of it...we die also...

Guilt of sin is the cause of death (Romans 6:23), it is not a consequence unconnected to guilt.

Of what sin, which caused their deaths, were those between Adam and Moses guilty, when there was no law to sin against and, therefore, they did not sin (Romans 5:14)?

Torah Keeper · Jan 18, 2022

Deuteronomy 16:1 Observe the month of Abib, and keep the passover unto the Lord thy God: for in the month of Abib the Lord thy God brought thee forth out of Egypt by night.

You all are saying the Israelites departed at sunrise. This seems to conflict with this verse.

Yeshua HaDerekh · Jan 18, 2022

Clare73 said:
PAUL said:
all sinned (Romans 5:12),
where there is no law there is no sin (Romans 5:13),
no one sinned between Adam and Moses, and yet all died because of sin (Romans 5:14),
of what sin were they guilty that caused all to die?

If Romans 5:12-15 is too confusing to you, we don't have to pursue it.

Paul is not confused...YOU are...

Passover For Christians

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Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

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Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

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Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

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