Particular Redemption / 1 John 2:2 ?

[B®ent]

1 John 2:2 And He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Let me start out by saying I am confident in 4 points of Calvinism; but the one I'm not so confident in is Limited Atonement / Particular Redemption.

How can I argue with the verse above?

Or, is there a distinction between propitiation and atonement that I'm missing?

I realize there are many verses which imply PD/LA, but none so strong as 1 Jn 2:2. That one just sorta blew me out of the water.

Awaiting replies,
God bless all.

 

[cygnusx1]

1 John 2:2 And He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

The word 'world' is usually where the arguement lies..........

take it that God has been Propitiated , satisfied , placated , and is now at peace with sinners because of the death of Christ.
Now all you have to do is find out exactly who that propitiation applies to.

Can you find any texts that show that God is still angry with sinners , that He is still a God of Wrath , and Vengence ?

Start there , then come back and we shall (D.V.) discuss the word 'World' and it's meaning in scripture.

God Bless
Cygnus

 

[Irishcat922]

1 John 2:2 And He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

The word 'world' is usually where the arguement lies..........

take it that God has been Propitiated , satisfied , placated , and is now at peace with sinners because of the death of Christ.
Now all you have to do is find out exactly who that propitiation applies to.

Can you find any texts that show that God is still angry with sinners , that He is still a God of Wrath , and Vengence ?

Start there , then come back and we shall (D.V.) discuss the word 'World' and it's meaning in scripture.

God Bless
Cygnus

And as Cygnus said, if that propitiation applies to all sin then Christ's atonement must be applied to the sin of unbelief, therefore all men would be saved, and yet we know that all men won't. Thus Christ's Death is not applied to everyone. Therefore world here does not mean world in the sense you are taking it, but rather in regards to the gospel and it's effects extending to all parts of the world. That's my 2 cents.

 

[Imblessed]

And as Cygnus said, if that propitiation applies to all sin then Christ's atonement must be applied to the sin of unbelief, therefore all men would be saved, and yet we know that all men won't. Thus Christ's Death is not applied to everyone. Therefore world here does not mean world in the sense you are taking it, but rather in regards to the gospel and it's effects extending to all parts of the world. That's my 2 cents.

that's exactly why I have to look at that verse differently than implied. That verse, if it were to mean exactly as it seems it means, would imply Universalism, which simply cannot be the case, looking at other verses. I think it must mean world in the sense of not only the Jews of the time, but also the Gentiles and men of every nationality across the globe.

 

[cygnusx1]

that's exactly why I have to look at that verse differently than implied. That verse, if it were to mean exactly as it seems it means, would imply Universalism, which simply cannot be the case, looking at other verses. I think it must mean world in the sense of not only the Jews of the time, but also the Gentiles and men of every nationality across the globe.

wow you have a lad called Calvin ............ how did that happen ?
Did you name him after John Calvin or is that a coincidence Imblessed?

 

[B®ent]

Thanks guys. My confidence is restored.

 

[Imblessed]

wow you have a lad called Calvin ............ how did that happen ?
Did you name him after John Calvin or is that a coincidence Imblessed?

PURELY coincidental! LOL

Believe it or not I named him after Calvin from Calvin and Hobbes. I came "this" close to naming him Calvin Hobbes Noel, but backed off, thinking "maybe" that was a little tooo silly.

I found out about John Calvin and Doctrines of Grace here in CF about a year ago

 

[B®ent]

Okay, here is an argument I don't know how to respond to. Taken from another site:

The verse in 1 Jno 2:2 reads in Greek

2:2 kai autos ilasmos estin peri twn amartiwn hmwn ou peri twn hmeterwn de monon alla kai peri olou tou kosmou

The word meaning world is "Kosmos" which means the following (Strongs and Thayer's):

an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government
ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars, 'the heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens. 1 Pet. 3:

the world, the universe

the circle of the earth, the earth

the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family

the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ

world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly
the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ
any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort

the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc)

of believers only, John 1:29; 3:16; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47 1 Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:19

It is used 184 times in the NT and every time it means the whole of the world or of humanity.

 

[HiredGoon]

A.W. Pink on the use of the word "kosmos" in the NT:

Yet, if anyone will take a concordance and read carefully the various passages in which the term "world" (as a translation of "kosmos") occurs, he will quickly perceive that to ascertain the precise meaning of the word "world" in any given passaGen. is not nearly so easy as is popularly supposed. The word "kosmos", and its English equivalent "world", is not used with a uniform significance in the New Testament. Very far from it. It is used in quite a number of different ways. Below we will refer to a few passages where this term occurs, suggesting a tentative definition in each case:

1 "Kosmos" is used of the Universe as a whole: Acts 17:24 —

"God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth."

2 "Kosmos" is used of the earth: John 13:1 Eph 1:4, etc., etc. —

"When Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world he loved them unto the end." "Depart out of this world" signifies, leave this earth.

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world." This expression signifies, before the earth was founded — compare Job 38:4 etc.

3 "Kosmos" is used of the world system: John 12:31 etc. "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the Prince of this world be cast out" — compare Matt. 4:8 and 1 John 5:19, R.V.

4 "Kosmos" is used of the whole human race: Rom. 3:19, etc. —

"Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God."

5 "Kosmos" is used of humanity minus believers: John 15:18; Rom. 3:6

"If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you." Believers do not "hate" Christ, so that "the world" here must signify the world of unbelievers in contrast from believers who love Christ.

"God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world." Here is another passaGen. where "the world" cannot mean "you, me, and everybody", for believers will not be "judged" by God, see John 5:24. So that here, too, it must be the world of unbelievers which is in view.

6 "Kosmos" is used of Gentiles in contrast from Jews: Rom. 11:12 etc.

"Now if the fall of them (Israel) be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them (Israel) the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their (Israel's) fulness." Note how the first clause in italics is defined by the latter clause placed in italics. Here, again, "the world" cannot signify all humanity for it excludes Israel!

7 "Kosmos" is used of believers only: John 1:29 3:16,17 6:33 12:47;

1 Cor. 4:9 2 Cor. 5:19. We leave our readers to turn to these passages, asking them to note, carefully, exactly what is said and predicated of "the world" in each place.

Thus it will be seen that "kosmos" has at least seven clearly defined different meanings in the New Testament. It may be asked, has then God used a word thus to confuse and confound those who read the Scriptures? We answer, No! nor has he written his Word for lazy people who are too dilatory, or too busy with the things of this world, or, like Martha, so much occupied with "serving", they have no time and no heart to "search" and "study" Holy Writ! Should it be asked further, But how is a searcher of the Scriptures to know which of the above meanings the term "world" has in any given passage? The answer is: This may be ascertained by a careful study of the context, by diligently noting what is predicated of "the world" in each passage, and by prayerfully consulting other parallel passages to the one being studied.

 

[Jon_]

When we confer in 1 John 2:2 we need to consider other verses that clarify the point made. I was doing some recent study and came across a couple of verses that clarify the assertion of 2:2 very well.

John makes it clear in the third chapter of his first epistle that he is speaking of the elect of the whole word.

(1 John 3:5 KJV) And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
​

Jesus came to take away our sins. That is, believers:

(1 John 3:6 KJV) Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
​

What John is saying is that to whoever sin is imputed, he has not been atoned, but those that have been atoned, to them sin is not imputed, for they are justified through faith. Moreover, this is precisely the purpose for which Matthew attributed his birth in his account of the Gospel, viz. that Christ came to atone for the sins of those who have faith (his people):

(Matt. 1:21 KJV) And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
​

Additionally, Paul conveys the context of the passage in a parallel statement in Romans:

(Rom. 2:11-12) For there is no respect of persons with God. 12) For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
​

And then he continues:

(Rom. 3:25 KJV) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
​

Paul here says that the propitiation comes through faith, not universally. Moving ahead a couple of verses:

(Rom. 3:29 KJV) Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
​

Here he sets the context of the promise: being to all people, Jew and Gentile. The promise of propitiation through faith is made without respect concerning persons (Rom. 2:11), but is made according to God's good and pleasing will (Eph. 1:11).

The idea of a universal atonement that is applicable to those who have faith is logically indefensible. A cause without an effect is meaningless, is useless and non-existent. There is no such thing as a cause without an effect.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[ChristRules]

PURELY coincidental! LOL

Believe it or not I named him after Calvin from Calvin and Hobbes. I came "this" close to naming him Calvin Hobbes Noel, but backed off, thinking "maybe" that was a little tooo silly.

I found out about John Calvin and Doctrines of Grace here in CF about a year ago

You'll love this then, Calvin and Hobbes were actually named after John Calvin and Thomas Hobbes. I have a 5 year-old son named Calvin too, but we named him directly after John Calvin.

 

[ChristRules]

"World" is used throughout Scripture to mean:

1) Evil people only
2) Roman Empire only
3) The lost only
4) Numerous people of a small region only
5) Gentiles only
6) Saved Gentiles only

With this voluminous use of the word "world" throughout Scripture to mean only narrow and specific groups of people we should not always assume it means every single person who ever lived on earth.

ISA 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

LUK 2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.

LUK 16:8 And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.

JOH 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

JOH 7:7 The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.

JOH 12:19 The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him.

JOH 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

JOH 15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.

JOH 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

JOH 16:20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.

JOH 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

JOH 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

ACT 17:6 And when they found them not, they drew Jason and certain brethren unto the rulers of the city, crying, These that have turned the world upside down are come hither also;

ACT 19:27 So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought; but also that the temple of the great goddess Diana should be despised, and her magnificence should be destroyed, whom all Asia and the world worshippeth.

ROM 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

ROM 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

1JO 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

1JO 3:13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.

1JO 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

 

[Imblessed]

You'll love this then, Calvin and Hobbes were actually named after John Calvin and Thomas Hobbes. I have a 5 year-old son named Calvin too, but we named him directly after John Calvin.

That is too cool! *so i guess i sort of named him after J. Calvin after all, huh? he he he

 

[Lockheed]

"World" is used throughout Scripture to mean:

1) Evil people only
2) Roman Empire only
3) The lost only
4) Numerous people of a small region only
5) Gentiles only
6) Saved Gentiles only

I think there's one other meaning that is often overlooked, that being "the created universe" or "God's creation".

That understanding can fit in most places with ease, ie John 3:16.

God loved His creation in this way, that He sent His only begotten Son...

Folks get hung up on the "so" and "world" in that verse and take it to mean something the author does not intend.

Also, consider a true universal "all" found in Acts 17 -

30"Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,
31because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."
​

In neither case is kosmos used. In v31 the word is Oikoumene which means:

1. the inhabited earth
2. the portion of the earth inhabited by the Greeks, in distinction from the lands of the barbarians
3. the Roman empire, all the subjects of the empire
4. the whole inhabited earth, the world
5. the inhabitants of the earth, men

1. the universe, the world

Folks need to be more consistent in translation and contextual understanding.

 

[mannysee]

okay, i've only recently been reading through the scriptures with 'elect' eyes on. Reading in Galatians i read about the promise given to Abraham and to his seed or offspring (being one i.e. Christ). saying something like, "In you will all the nations be blessed".
I think that is a good example of what you are discussing i.e. here it is "all the nations" which by itself would easily be thought of as everyone, but it is locked together with "in you".

 

[Jon_]

okay, i've only recently been reading through the scriptures with 'elect' eyes on. Reading in Galatians i read about the promise given to Abraham and to his seed or offspring (being one i.e. Christ). saying something like, "In you will all the nations be blessed".
I think that is a good example of what you are discussing i.e. here it is "all the nations" which by itself would easily be thought of as everyone, but it is locked together with "in you".

Bingo. Great point.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[ksen]

Believe it or not I named him after Calvin from Calvin and Hobbes.

Did you know that Calvin, of Calvin and Hobbes, was named after John Calvin?

• Calvin from Calvin and Hobbes, a comic character created by Bill Watterson, was named after John Calvin. However, Calvin the boy's thoughts more reflect the ideas of Thomas Hobbes, the tiger Hobbes's namesake. The tiger's views more reflect John Calvin's.

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclopedia/J/Jo/John_Calvin.htm

 

[cygnusx1]

Yes Jesus did die for His enemies ...

Romans 5:10​

For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we will be saved by his life. WEB
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life;[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] ASV[/font]
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For if, when we were haters of God, the death of his Son made us at peace with him, much more, now that we are his friends, will we have salvation through his life;[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] BBE[/font]
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For if, being enemies, we have been reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much rather, having been reconciled, we shall be saved in the power of his life.[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] DBY[/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] KJV[/font]
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For if when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son; much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] WBS[/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
For if while we were hostile to God we were reconciled to Him through the death of His Son, it is still more certain that now that we are reconciled, we shall obtain salvation through Christ's life.[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] WEY[/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
for if, being enemies, we have been reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved in his life. [/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]YLT[/font]

 

[cygnusx1]

Did Jesus also die for His Friends ?


Yes!!!

John 15:13


Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. WEB
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Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] ASV[/font]
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Greater love has no man than this, that a man gives up his life for his friends.[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] BBE[/font]
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No one has greater love than this, that one should lay down his life for his friends.[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] DBY[/font]
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Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] KJV[/font]
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Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] WBS[/font]
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No one has greater love than this--a man laying down his life for his friends.[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] WEY[/font]
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greater love than this hath no one, that any one his life may lay down for his friends; [/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]YLT[/font]​

 

[cygnusx1]

Now are these friends and enemies all people , the entire human race , the 'World' ?

Is God friends with everyone ?

Consider these two scriptures and why God inspired them .....


"Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him" (I John 2:15).

"Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God." (James 4:4 RSV)