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Particular or General Redemption Part 2

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VictoryProcured

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The following passages refer to the universal intent of Christ’s death:

Romans 5:18 - “Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men

I Corinthians 15:22 - “In Christ all will be made alive.”

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 - “For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.”

I Timothy 2:4-6 - “who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all men - the testimony given in its proper time.”

I Timothy 4:10 - “….that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe

Titus 2:11 - “For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men

Hebrews 2:9 - “But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone

2 Peter 3:9 - “The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise….He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.”

Therefore, Christ’s death on the cross was “sufficient for all” but is only “efficient for the elect.” That is to say, the death of Christ was designed to include all humankind but is applied only to those who accept it, believe in Jesus as Lord and Savior. I believe that no verse covers this concept more clearly then I Timothy 4:10, “…..who is the Savior of all men (sufficient for all), and especially of those who believe (efficient only for the elect i.e. those who believe).”

The Calvinist would say that it must refer to the “world of the elect,” and not referencing a universal application. For, if it would refer to the world in a universal sense, the Calvinist asserts that no one would go to hell, for all would be saved. This belief stems from the notion and is directly woven together with the “I” in TULIP i.e. “irresistible grace..”

Berkhof said “the designs of God are always and surely efficacious and cannot be frustrated by the actions of men.”

Ergo, if Christ died for the whole world and it was the Lord’s intent to die for the sins of every man, then every man would be saved, for man cannot frustrate the intent of God…….thus, irresistible grace. Therefore, from the Calvinistic view, either Christ died for only the elect or universal salvation is the spiritual motif of Scripture. Of course, neither are true……the only reason why this camp of thought embraces such an theory stems back to Berkhof’s statement once again…….”man cannot frustrate the plan of God.”

This would lead into another subject matter which is inextricably woven together with limited atonement and that of course is irresistible grace. We can discuss that one next if you wish, but for now allow me to simply say that I adhere to resistible grace, which makes a profound impact on why I believe in unlimited atonement. But, further on we go:

Luke 19:10: "For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost." (The "lost" seems to refer to the entire world of lost humanity, not just the lost elect.)

John 1:29: "The next day John saw Jesus coming towards him and said, 'Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world.'" I am sure that John is not implying the sin of the world of the elect here!


John 3:16: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

The Greek lexicons are unanimous that "world" here denotes humankind, not the "world of the elect."

John 3:16 cannot be divorced from verses 14-15, wherein Christ alludes to Numbers 21 with its discussion of Moses setting up the brazen serpent in the camp of Israel, so that if "any man" looked to it, he experienced physical deliverance. In verse 15 Christ applies the story spiritually when He says that "whosoever" believes on the uplifted Son of Man shall experience spiritual deliverance.

John 4:42: "They said to the woman, 'We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.'"

It is certain that when the Samaritans called Jesus "the Savior of the world," they were not thinking of the world of the elect.

Likewise, when Jesus said, "I am the Light of the world" (John 8:12), He was not thinking of Himself as the Light of the world of the elect. "The sun in the heavens shines on all men, though some, in their folly, may choose to withdraw into dark caves to evade its illuminating rays."

When Jesus called His disciples "the light of the world" (Matt.. 5:14), He did not mean they were the "light of the elect."

Likewise, the "Savior of the world" in John 4:42 cannot be limited to the elect.

Acts 2:21: "And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

Hebrews 2:9: "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone."
The word "everyone" is better translated "each."

Henry Alford comments: "If it be asked, why pantos (each) rather than panton (all), we may safely say that the singular brings out, far more strongly than the plural word, the applicability of Christ's death to each individual man."

Romans 5:6 says: "At just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly."

It doesn't make much sense to read this as saying that Christ died for the ungodly of the elect. The ramification of this statement is the “ungodly’ must refer to all of mankind and not just the elect. To say that Christ died only for the ungodly (elect), then the non-elect would fall into the category of the “godly,” which we know that all mankind is ungodly.

Romans 5:18 says: "Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men."

Thus the implication is that through Adam's act of disobedience the entire human race became the recipients of sin. And through one act of obedience the last Adam made provision for the gracious gift of righteousness for the entire human race. The disobedience of the one was co-extensive with the obedience of the other. In other words, if sin and condemnation came to “all men” then righteousness through Christ comes to “all men.” All cannot mean the elect here…..for if that was the case it would render the statement that only the elect were sinful and condemned and not the non-elect…..and righteousness would come to only those who were condemned which would only be the elect….this of course is ludicrous to believe.

1 John 2:2 says: "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."

A natural reading of this verse, without imposing theological presuppositions on it, seems to support unlimited atonement.

Isaiah 53:6 says: "We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all"

This verse doesn't make sense unless it is read to say that the same "all" that went astray is the "all" for whom the Lord died.

In the first of these statements, the general apostasy of men is declared; in the second, the particular deviation of each one; in the third, the atoning suffering of the Messiah, which is said to be on behalf of all. As the first 'all' is true of all men (and not just of the elect), we judge that the last 'all' relates to the same company.

Theologian Millard Erickson comments: "This passage is especially powerful from a logical standpoint. It is clear that the extent of sin is universal; it is specified that every one of us has sinned. It should also be noticed that the extent of what will be laid on the suffering servant exactly parallels the extent of sin. It is difficult to read this passage and not conclude that just as everyone sins, everyone is also atoned for."

2 Peter 2:1 - "But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them bringing swift destruction on themselves."

This seems to point out most clearly that people for whom Christ died may be lost, it seems that Christ even paid the price of redemption for false teachers who deny Him....there is a distinction between those for whom Christ died and those who are finally saved."

End of Part 2
 
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God is particular as to which He saves. As a betweener He was particular about electing me to salvation. There is this song, "He reached down His hand for me" I love that song." He Particularly Picked Me. Now I am not a Calvinist don't confuse my kind of Particularism with theirs. Elections is a wonderful doctrine when understood correctly.

I think Peter has the best answer to this Particular Election. Paul, well he was a little wacky but He finally got it right in his summary in Romans chapter 11.

The Holy Spirit was very patient as he wrote Romans. Its a good thing that the Holy Spirit boar him along or Paul might have really messed up what turned out to be one of the best books in the Bible. Can a person really say something like that?
 
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My view of Romans sees God's mercy extended to all 11:32. I firmly believe in election and I believe I was completely elected in eternity. However, this election, for me, is on the basis of foreknowledge. Now we must not equate the foreknowledge of man's response to the gospel to that of God's foreknowing the nations of Israel, comprised of lost and saved Jews. God’s previous relationship to Israel as his chosen nations and still chosen nation is separate from the Elections of those being saved in this dispensation. My salvation is free and as such works is completely eliminated from the equation. God from all eternity knew I would respond to His work not mine or yours or someone else’s work not because I would because I would not - but because I could once presented with the saving gospel of my dispensation, see Romans chapter 10.
 
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cygnusx1

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Thats a lie, the verses refer to the elect alone, and their is not just intent but actual accomplishment..

Yes , God doesn't plan or intend things that fail , that is the whole point of Romans 9.

A God who is a failure doesn't demand respect but pity ........
 
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Epiphoskei

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My view of Romans sees God's mercy extended to all 11:32. I firmly believe in election and I believe I was completely elected in eternity. However, this election, for me, is on the basis of foreknowledge. Now we must not equate the foreknowledge of man's response to the gospel to that of God's foreknowing the nations of Israel, comprised of lost and saved Jews. God’s previous relationship to Israel as his chosen nations and still chosen nation is separate from the Elections of those being saved in this dispensation. My salvation is free and as such works is completely eliminated from the equation. God from all eternity knew I would respond to His work not mine or yours or someone else’s work not because I would because I would not - but because I could once presented with the saving gospel of my dispensation, see Romans chapter 10.

I know we're discussing this in another thread, but I have to bring something up here. You say we have to differentiate between the foreknowledge of Israel and the foreknowledge of us, and this seems a rather arbitrary distinction to make. Why do we allow "foreknow" to mean one thing in respect to Israel, but not demand the same sense in respect to the church? This seems a distinction of convenience, allowing the Arminian teaching of Conditional Election to stand, despite the fact that the election of Israel, whom God also foreknew, was certainly not conditioned on anything within them. Indeed, Romans speaks of the man Israel, after whom the nation was named, being specifically chosen before he was born, not on the basis of what he had done. To still call Israel "foreknown" in Romans 11 in light of what Romans 9 says about how Israel was chosen poses a serious challenge to the idea of foreknowledge of faith, and this distinction you're making seems to be constructed only to insulate Conditional Election from this problem.
 
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cygnusx1

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Jesus said, "God so loved the world (all Men) that he gave his only begotten Son that WHOSOEVER believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life." John 3:16.

I guess Jesus was teaching a false Gospel.

the same writer said that Jesus popularity was so great the Pharisees said behold "the world has gone after him " ............ I expect the same writer didn't mean everyone in both cases because unlike you , he was consistant !
 
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Jesus Christ's Limited Atonement?

The film becomes a propaganda ploy to trap the mind into believing that there are only two competing systems of hermeneutics. The Reform are insistent on this approach because they know that to give ground to what the Bible actually teaches destroys there thesis, the TULIP.

Arminians are not as aggressive in defending their view as are the Reform Group.

The Biblical group, those who accept what the Bible teaches, rejects both camps. Both camps do not teach the Bible correctly.

Both side redefine words and allegorize passages to fit their theology. When a passage or word does not fit their thinking they change the meaning to accommodate their view. Both sides refuse to acknowledge the true Biblical view, God’s way.

Don’t worry the back and fort is not going to stop here.

Those of us that accept the truth as God has given it will continue to be amused at the on going battle between Reform and Arminian miss interpretation and miss use of God’s word.
 
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Epiphoskei

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@bene: Tulip is not, nor has it ever been, the thesis of Reformed Theology. It's a handy guide to the specific responses to Arminianism, but nothing more.

@Robert Pate: Particular redemption still means all who beleve are saved. It differs from general atonement in that it teaches that all believers are particularly saved in the cross, not merely enabled to be saved if they believe.
 
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cygnusx1

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The film becomes a propaganda ploy to trap the mind into believing that there are only two competing systems of hermeneutics. The Reform are insistent on this approach because they know that to give ground to what the Bible actually teaches destroys there thesis, the TULIP.

Arminians are not as aggressive in defending their view as are the Reform Group.

The Biblical group, those who accept what the Bible teaches, rejects both camps. Both camps do not teach the Bible correctly.

Both side redefine words and allegorize passages to fit their theology. When a passage or word does not fit their thinking they change the meaning to accommodate their view. Both sides refuse to acknowledge the true Biblical view, God’s way.

Don’t worry the back and fort is not going to stop here.

Those of us that accept the truth as God has given it will continue to be amused at the on going battle between Reform and Arminian miss interpretation and miss use of God’s word.


all this from a Baptist !!!

God help us !

as we have seen by testing before on these forums , there is no middle ground , there is no seperate view besides TULIP and it's opposing doctrines , eg , either you accept the truth of The Security Of Salvation or you do not .
 
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