Partial preterest

yeshuasavedme · Feb 19, 2007

yeshuasavedme said:
Oh yes it will be rolled back!

the dragon is seen in heaven, a star sign of constellations -remember the signs in the heavens in the last days, before the LORD plants His feet on earth to reign for His Sabbath Cycle?

The woman is another star sign of the last days -and she represents Zion, the true "Mother" of the born again in Spirit believers.

These things will be seen in the heavens in the Great Tribulation as fearful signs in the heavens.
~~~~~
Also;
the earth will be moved out of orbit

The earth will be turned upside down

the earth will reel and stagger as a drunken man

The earth will skip about as a hunted roe

the sun will shine seven times brighter -and so will the moon

the days will be shortened to 16 hours instead of 24, so that all flesh will not perish in the great heat

and a third of the stars will not shine [their lights will literally be put out], and a third of the angels [stars] will be cast down to earth.
There is an angel -star -host of heaven, connection in Enoch and in Scripture -all through.

You don't know the size of the stars cores, do you?
Do you know the size of the sun's core?

These are the last days of earth's seven days of one thousand years each, before the heavens are rolled up and the New Beginning comes round.

The last days of earth's week began with the incarnation of the LORD.
These days are not ended and these signs have not yet been seen; except the sign of the "Star's" dawning in the heavens, when YHWH prepared a second human beng body for the Word to don as His garment of Kinsman to Adam, which the wise men understood and sought the "King" of earth born, to worship Him.

Act 2:19
And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

Joe 2:30
And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.Joe 2:31
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Luk 21:11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Rev 12:4
And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Rev 12:7¶And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,Rev 12:8
And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.Rev 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

When Appolyon =Shiva =Destruction [the angel/star], is cast down to earth, he opens the pit and lets 200 million demons out, to torment mankind.

'stars' speak of glory of both angels and of redeemed men [to come, but the glory is 'laid' up in heaven for us to 'wear'], and those who lose their glory get cast down to earth, in Enoch; and in Revelation, the third of the stars which cease shining seem to be the host of rebel angels cast down to earth when the Church is raptured to heaven!!!.

Josephus recorded no signs in the heavens at the time of Jerusalem's fall but that of a sword seen in the heavens over Jerusalem, and of the sound of the voices "woeing" it's desolation [but that's off the top of my head without going to look up the fall as he recorded it -but the signs which are to be seen as John reports them in Revelation were not seen, and have not happened in heaven or on earth -yet!

But when John sees the Revelation of the Son of Man/Son of God, Jerusalem is delivered and the enemies of Jerusalem are destroyed and the Millennial reign of His Peace begins on earth.

NumberOneSon · Feb 19, 2007

ProphecyCountdown said:
Now you presume to know what others think? Do you think you have the power of God, to know what people think.

I know that if a person claims to be a futurist then they believe in futurism, and if a person claims to be a preterist then they believe in preterism, and if a person claims to be a historicist then they believe in historicism, etc. I don’t need to be a mind reader nor do I need to be inspired to reach those conclusions; it’s common sense. I’ve never heard of a person who didn’t believe in the eschatological view they claimed to espouse, so I was hardly being presumptuous in my last post.

Your profile says your End Times view is futurism. So how am I possibly “assuming” anything when you, yourself, say you’re a futurist, or when other posters clearly claim a particular eschatological stance? Now I would be making an assumption if I didn’t know your eschatological viewpoint, but that simply is not the case here.

ProphecyCountdown said:
You make presumptions on those that dare scrutinise preterist theories.

No, I have no problem with posters scrutinizing me and challenging what I believe. Jerry Shugart has also been scrutinizing preterism on this thread as well, and I don't have a problem with that in the least. I’ve been wrong before and I’m sure I’ll be wrong again. What I do have a problem with is posters like you breaking forum rules by ridiculing and misrepresenting what I believe.

For example, in your #59 post, you accused preterists of breaking forum rules because we believe Jesus came in AD70. That belief is not a rule violation. You seem unwilling or unable to recognize the crucial difference that separates Orthodox preterism from full preterism, or the fact that Orthodox preterism is allowed to be discussed on this board. I’m ok with you believing that I am wrong in my beliefs, but I’m unwilling to tolerate you telling me I’m violating a forum rule that, in reality, I am not. Simply apologize for your misstep and move on.

I’ve been a regular participant on this forum for almost 5 years now, and not once during that time has any preterist publicly objected to a sincere critique of their beliefs. However, I can’t count how many times I’ve seen Christians of other eschatological persuasions bemoan Preterists for doing the same to them.

ProphecyCountdown said:
Do you agree with this assumption. Pilgrim. Quote. “Jesus said that Satan was cast out when he was lifted up on the Cross.” Unquote.

I don’t know…I never really thought about it much. There are a myriad of differing viewpoints within Preterism as there is within Futurism. Just because someone is a Preterist doesn’t mean I’ll agree with everything they believe on every subject.

ProphecyCountdown said:
So what do futurists like Pilgrim, do after making that unbiblical statement?
Pilgrim, quote. “Indeed, isn’t that the very message of the Gospel? Unquote.

Pilgrim, quote. This is the Gospel, and this is what I believe. Unquote.

Now if that is not indoctrination what is, when people assume things then say ‘this is the Gospel?’

I see Pilgrimer’s statement as being no different than what any other posters says on this forum. “This is what the scripture clearly teaches” can be seen in various forms ad nauseam ad infinium here and elsewhere. Pilgrimer was just stating what she believes, and if you disagree with that then you are free to do so.

ProphecyCountdown said:
That statement ‘I believe.’ Means nothing if one believes in ones own words.
Here is another preterist gem.
Pilgrim, quote. “The victory is already won, Jesus Christ reigns, and at the name of Jesus the gates of hell crumble, darkness flees and every foul spirit bows in mute subjection.” Unquote.
Already won? Jesus, reigns? ‘every foul spirit bows in mute subjection?’

Pilgrim, ignores 1 Cor 15: 52 – 58. as if it didn’t exist, talk about selective.
Victory is not won until we can claim all the things in 1 Cor 15: 52 – 58.
Pilgrim has a big problem it’s called Rev 20: and 21:

Hers is another gem from a preterist.
Jipsah quote. “It's just circumlocution and blatherskite that I have problems with. Unquote.
Jipsah, quote.
“You don't consider the Bible to be verbiage?”

Maybe you can tell me what Jipsah, was’ thinking’… If he was ‘thinking’ at all?
Jipsah, quote. “Orthodox preterist, thanks. I consider futurism a species of superstition.” Unquote.

How stupid was that statement from a man who can’t work out the Temple times and types.

I’ll let those posters address those issues with you if they so choose.

I’ll address the rest of your post soon.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

Parousia · Feb 19, 2007

yeshuasavedme said:
Well -you [plural] of the partial preterist position have a "certain" [plural] dilimma.

On the one hand, you have the generation which will not pass away "until"; which by your interpretations must mean the Apostles who heard, which included those who reported the conversation.

Then you have the promise that "only certain" -of the some- would not taste death "until".

They both cannot be true.
But then there is the rumour that only a certain one of the disciples would not die, but would continue until Jesus comes.

So you have all of them living to see him return;
some of them living to see him return;
but just one who would not die until he returned.
They are not all true.
-And Caiaphas was dead before 70 AD -which is fact according to the link I gave you; which someone you quoted denied, but they are not truthful about the burial tomb of Caiaphas.

So you have a wrong interpretation -have you got a clue where? and only John did not taste death until he saw the kingdom come with power, and the kingdom was seen by Him from the future Day of the LORD, which he was taken into, in spirit, and saw and reported.
-more on the next about the things you said.

Let's get it all--only certain of those STANDING HERE. Jesus was not including everyone--only some of THOSE who were right there with Him at the time! Therefore, both Matthew 24:34 and Matthew 16:28 are true. They are complimentary. The time of THAT generation would not pass away . . . Some of THOSE standing right in front of Him would not die . . . . Where's the contradiction; where's the plural dilemma?

Furthermore, try as you may, Matthew 16:28 does NOT speak of a certain ONE but CERTAIN OF THOSE--It is PLURAL, yeshuasavedme! Why can't you take the verse the way it is written? Is your system of interpretation so precious to you that you will force verses to say what you need them to say? It is plain English!

Parousia

yeshuasavedme · Feb 19, 2007

Parousia said:
Let's get it all--only certain of those STANDING HERE. Jesus was not including everyone--only some of THOSE who were right there with Him at the time! Therefore, both Matthew 24:34 and Matthew 16:28 are true. They are complimentary. The time of THAT generation would not pass away . . . Some of THOSE standing right in front of Him would not die . . . . Where's the contradiction; where's the plural dilemma?

Furthermore, try as you may, Matthew 16:28 does NOT speak of a certain ONE but CERTAIN OF THOSE--It is PLURAL, yeshuasavedme! Why can't you take the verse the way it is written? Is your system of interpretation so precious to you that you will force verses to say what you need them to say? It is plain English!

Parousia

Why are you ignoring the facts of only John seeing the Kingdom come with power? and that John gave us the report of seeing that?
Not one Apostle of the LORD believed he was promised to not taste death until he saw the kingdom come, and that one was John.
-as John 21 proves.

Only John of the three of the inner circle remained alive to see the Kingdom come with power -and that was seen in the future, from where John was taken to be shown it.

Psalm 37 is about that soon coming day when all the wicked will be removed from the earth -and the children of wrath are one generation as the children of faith are.

Children of the world who will not remain when He comes are one generation, and they are the "This generation" which shall pass away at His coming.

Why are you ignoring that the one generation that will pass away will indeed pass away when He comes?, and that is one generation of the wicked, as all Scripture teaches.

Luk 16:8 And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.

Who is to pass away at His coming, Parousia?

Who is to inherit the earth, Parousia?

who is to be removed from the earth at His coming, Parousia?

yeshuasavedme · Feb 19, 2007

yeshuasavedme said:
Why are you ignoring the facts of only John seeing the Kingdom come with power? and that John gave us the report of seeing that?
Not one Apostle of the LORD believed he was promised to not taste death until he saw the kingdom come, and that one was John.
-as John 21 proves.

Only John of the three of the inner circle remained alive to see the Kingdom come with power -and that was seen in the future, from where John was taken to be shown it.

Psalm 37 is about that soon coming day when all the wicked will be removed from the earth -and the children of wrath are one generation as the children of faith are.

Children of the world who will not remain when He comes are one generation, and they are the "This generation" which shall pass away at His coming.

Why are you ignoring that the one generation that will pass away will indeed pass away when He comes?, and that is one generation of the wicked, as all Scripture teaches.

Luk 16:8 And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.

Who is to pass away at His coming, Parousia?

Who is to inherit the earth, Parousia?

who is to be removed from the earth at His coming, Parousia?

And Jesus comapred "This generation" which shall indeed pass away at His coming to the wicked generation of Noah's day, who all perished in the flood.

There is a generation which is promised to perish off earth at the second consumation of sin.

There is a generation which is promised to inherit the earth, and the wicked will not be found!

One passes away at the return of the LORD.
One does not ever pass away.

Parousia · Feb 19, 2007

Prophecy Countdown said:

________________________________________________

Jesus did NOT come in anger against the wicked in general. He came against THAT WICKED generation of Jews. See Matthew 23! THEY were guilty of all the righteous blood shed on the earth. They were going to soon be judged for it--AD 70!

The disciples were NOT part of the wicked of that generation who were to be given the sign of Jonah! Read what it says!

The Wailing Wall is clearly NOT part of the Temple site. Jesus said not one stone would be left upon another--the Temple of the THIS generation! Where is the proof that the Wailing Wall is part of the original temple? There is NONE! I believe Jesus!

Every eye did "see" Him just as the world "saw" the destruction under the Babylonians and the Assyrians. Those who pierced Him saw Him--when they were still in the flesh! John nowhere indicates otherwise!

See, I did not forget Revelation 1:7. But you apparently always forget Rev. 1:1--things which must SHORTLY take place and Rev. 1:3--the time is AT HAND." Be careful of what you accuse others lest you be guilty yourself!

Nahum 1:5 is FILLED with metaphors! Do you not understand figurative language and how it is used? Nahum is speaking for God against Nineveh. Do you futurists ever look at CONTEXT? You're like your mentor, Jack "the Ripper" Van Impe--ripping verses out context to make them say what you want them to!

Are the clouds literally His feet? (Nahum 1:3)
Do you really think that God will melt the hills? Will the earth "heave?"

Can a heart literally "melt" (Nahum 2:10)?

Did God literally lift their "skirts" over their faces? (Nahum 3:5)
Did He literally then show their nakedness to the nations? (Nahum 3:5). The prophecies of the OT are filled with metaphors depicting God's judgment upon nations and peoples. Are you a professing student of God's Word and don't realize that? You must understand the different types of literature God used in His Word to express Himself. The lack of this understanding is what is behind the fanciful and weird speculations of such as Hal Lindsey.

Futurists like to pick and choose what they want to take literally and what they want to see as metaphorical according to how it best suits them!

Did the "elements" (stoicheia) melt with fervent heat? Is this speaking of chemical elements? NO! This word is NEVER EVER anywhere in the Scriptures used in such a fashion. NOTE:

1. Gal. 4:3, 9 - "So also we, when we were babes, under the ELEMENTS (stoicheia) of the world were in servitude...and now, having known God -- and rather being known by God -- how turn you again unto the weak and poor ELEMENTS (stoicheia). They were in bondage to the stoicheia of the world!

2. Col. 2:8, 20-22 - "See that no one shall be carrying you away as spoil through the philosophy and vain deceit, according to the deliverance of men, according to the ELEMENTS (stoicheia) of the world, and not according to Christ, ...If, then, you did die with the Christ from the ELEMENTS (stoicheia) of the world, why, as living in the world, are you subject to ordinances?

3. Heb. 5:12 - "For even owing to be teachers, because of the time, again you have need that one teach you what [are] the ELEMENTS (stoicheia) of the beginning of the oracles of God, and you have become having need of milk, and not of strong food."

4. 2 Peter 3:10-13 - "And it will come -- the day of the Lord -- as a thief in the night, in which the heavens with a rushing noise will pass away, and the ELEMENTS (stoicheia) with burning heat be dissolved, and earth and the works in it shall be burnt up." It is not the literal burning up of the earth that is to compel them to live lives pleasing to the Lord, but the judgment upon works of the flesh!

The Scriptures NOWHERE teach the destruction of the earth. Rather, they teach the opposite!

(Ps. 104:5) You who laid the foundations of the earth, so that it should not be moved FOREVER.

(Ecc. 1:4) The earth abides FOREVER.

(Gen. 8:21) I will NEVER AGAIN curse the ground on account of man, for the intent of man's heart is evil from his youth (total depravity), and I will NEVER AGAIN destroy every living thing, as I have done." Jesus said in Matthew 24--the end of the AGE (aion) not the end of the world (kosmos).

Also, I do NOT reject 2 Peter 3--but I do consider very seriously the CONTEXT, not just the parts I like! To whom is Peter writing and why? These are basic, fundamental questions every student of God's Word must ask and answer. What is going on in the lives of those to whom he is writing? You CANNOT understand a Bible passage without first considering these things!

How does Peter begin? "Beloved, I write to YOU this second epistle, that YOU may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and the commandments of US, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, knowing (THEY were to know) this first: that scoffers will come in the LAST DAYS (see Heb. 1:1.."in THESE last days). Peter later asks in light of everything that he has said before--"What manner of persons ought YOU to be in holy conduct and godliness." THEY were "looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God." THEY were to look for "new heavens and new earth in which righteousness dwells." This is the coming of His kingdom which is NOT of this world. The new heavens and new earth (full of righteousness and the things of God) took the place of the old (with its vain elements of the world--stoicheia).

Peter continues: THEREFORE, beloved, LOOKING forward to these things, [you--beloved--to whom I am writing NOW] be diligent to be found by Him in peace without spot and blameless." THEY were to "know this beforehand." This is just as Jesus warned them in Matthew 24:25--See, I have told YOU (my disciples standing right here in front of Me now) beforehand." These words were not written in a vacuum. They were written to real flesh and blood people with real flesh and blood circumstances and concerns. We do dishonor them by not seriously considering their situation and what these words would have meant to THEM!

Things which must SHORTLY take place.
The time is NEAR.
The COMING of the Lord is AT HAND.
Some of those standing here will not taste death till THEY see
You (Caiaphas) will see the Son of Man . . . COMING on the clouds
Behold, I am coming QUICKLY.

These are NOT my words--these are the VERY words found in the Scriptures. Yet, you and other futurists find fault with preterists because we DARE to take them in the plain easy-to-under sense in which they were written.

"How much evidence do FUTURISTS need from the Bible before

THEY at least understand anything?

Parousia

Click to expand...

yeshuasavedme · Feb 19, 2007

Parousia said:
Prophecy Countdown said:

________________________________________________

Jesus did NOT come in anger against the wicked in general. He came against THAT WICKED generation of Jews. See Matthew 23! THEY were guilty of all the righteous blood shed on the earth. They were going to soon be judged for it--AD 70!

The disciples were NOT part of the wicked of that generation who were to be given the sign of Jonah! Read what it says!

The Wailing Wall is clearly NOT part of the Temple site. Jesus said not one stone would be left upon another--the Temple of the THIS generation! Where is the proof that the Wailing Wall is part of the original temple? There is NONE! I believe Jesus!

Every eye did "see" Him just as the world "saw" the destruction under the Babylonians and the Assyrians. Those who pierced Him saw Him--when they were still in the flesh! John nowhere indicates otherwise!

See, I did not forget Revelation 1:7. But you apparently always forget Rev. 1:1--things which must SHORTLY take place and Rev. 1:3--the time is AT HAND." Be careful of what you accuse others lest you be guilty yourself!

Nahum 1:5 is FILLED with metaphors! Do you not understand figurative language and how it is used? Nahum is speaking for God against Nineveh. Do you futurists ever look at CONTEXT? You're like your mentor, Jack "the Ripper" Van Impe--ripping verses out context to make them say what you want them to!

Are the clouds literally His feet? (Nahum 1:3)
Do you really think that God will melt the hills? Will the earth "heave?"

Can a heart literally "melt" (Nahum 2:10)?

Did God literally lift their "skirts" over their faces? (Nahum 3:5)
Did He literally then show their nakedness to the nations? (Nahum 3:5). The prophecies of the OT are filled with metaphors depicting God's judgment upon nations and peoples. Are you a professing student of God's Word and don't realize that? You must understand the different types of literature God used in His Word to express Himself. The lack of this understanding is what is behind the fanciful and weird speculations of such as Hal Lindsey.

Futurists like to pick and choose what they want to take literally and what they want to see as metaphorical according to how it best suits them!

Did the "elements" (stoicheia) melt with fervent heat? Is this speaking of chemical elements? NO! This word is NEVER EVER anywhere in the Scriptures used in such a fashion. NOTE:

1. Gal. 4:3, 9 - "So also we, when we were babes, under the ELEMENTS (stoicheia) of the world were in servitude...and now, having known God -- and rather being known by God -- how turn you again unto the weak and poor ELEMENTS (stoicheia). They were in bondage to the stoicheia of the world!

2. Col. 2:8, 20-22 - "See that no one shall be carrying you away as spoil through the philosophy and vain deceit, according to the deliverance of men, according to the ELEMENTS (stoicheia) of the world, and not according to Christ, ...If, then, you did die with the Christ from the ELEMENTS (stoicheia) of the world, why, as living in the world, are you subject to ordinances?

3. Heb. 5:12 - "For even owing to be teachers, because of the time, again you have need that one teach you what [are] the ELEMENTS (stoicheia) of the beginning of the oracles of God, and you have become having need of milk, and not of strong food."

4. 2 Peter 3:10-13 - "And it will come -- the day of the Lord -- as a thief in the night, in which the heavens with a rushing noise will pass away, and the ELEMENTS (stoicheia) with burning heat be dissolved, and earth and the works in it shall be burnt up." It is not the literal burning up of the earth that is to compel them to live lives pleasing to the Lord, but the judgment upon works of the flesh!

The Scriptures NOWHERE teach the destruction of the earth. Rather, they teach the opposite!

(Ps. 104:5) You who laid the foundations of the earth, so that it should not be moved FOREVER.

(Ecc. 1:4) The earth abides FOREVER.

(Gen. 8:21) I will NEVER AGAIN curse the ground on account of man, for the intent of man's heart is evil from his youth (total depravity), and I will NEVER AGAIN destroy every living thing, as I have done." Jesus said in Matthew 24--the end of the AGE (aion) not the end of the world (kosmos).

Also, I do NOT reject 2 Peter 3--but I do consider very seriously the CONTEXT, not just the parts I like! To whom is Peter writing and why? These are basic, fundamental questions every student of God's Word must ask and answer. What is going on in the lives of those to whom he is writing? You CANNOT understand a Bible passage without first considering these things!

How does Peter begin? "Beloved, I write to YOU this second epistle, that YOU may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and the commandments of US, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, knowing (THEY were to know) this first: that scoffers will come in the LAST DAYS (see Heb. 1:1.."in THESE last days). Peter later asks in light of everything that he has said before--"What manner of persons ought YOU to be in holy conduct and godliness." THEY were "looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God." THEY were to look for "new heavens and new earth in which righteousness dwells." This is the coming of His kingdom which is NOT of this world. The new heavens and new earth (full of righteousness and the things of God) took the place of the old (with its vain elements of the world--stoicheia).

Peter continues: THEREFORE, beloved, LOOKING forward to these things, [you--beloved--to whom I am writing NOW] be diligent to be found by Him in peace without spot and blameless." THEY were to "know this beforehand." This is just as Jesus warned them in Matthew 24:25--See, I have told YOU (my disciples standing right here in front of Me now) beforehand." These words were not written in a vacuum. They were written to real flesh and blood people with real flesh and blood circumstances and concerns. We do dishonor them by not seriously considering their situation and what these words would have meant to THEM!

Things which must SHORTLY take place.
The time is NEAR.
The COMING of the Lord is AT HAND.
Some of those standing here will not taste death till THEY see
You (Caiaphas) will see the Son of Man . . . COMING on the clouds
Behold, I am coming QUICKLY.

These are NOT my words--these are the VERY words found in the Scriptures. Yet, you and other futurists find fault with preterists because we DARE to take them in the plain easy-to-under sense in which they were written.

"How much evidence do FUTURISTS need from the Bible before

THEY at least understand anything?

Parousia

Click to expand...

shortly is immenently, suddenly, quickly, with no remedy.
How bout you answering my post to you at http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=32017214&postcount=81
before we get into more, cause I gave you good answers and you have ignored them.
And FYI -the clouds are the Cherubim He is coming on.
The white horse is for swift judgment against the armies of the nations gathered against Jerusalem.

The Throne of glory is for the judgement of Israel [the elect] as they are gathered from the remaining parts of the world by angels, first, brought to the wilderness -at Sinai- and passed under the Rod, as Ezekiel 20:33-44 shows.

Then the Gentiles of the nations remaining are gathered before Him there, by the angels, and separated into sheep and goats, with the goats sent live, into the lake of fire to join the beast and the armies of the antichrist.

The Blessed Of Israel and the Blessed of the Gentiles are granted eternal life in the New covenant and enter the Millennial reign as the ones who populate the earth for the thousand years.

Clouds and a whirlwind always are mentioned in relation to the Cherubim, who bear the Throne of Glory.

yeshuasavedme · Feb 19, 2007

yeshuasavedme said:
Parousia said:

shortly is immenently, suddenly, quickly, with no remedy.
How bout you answering my post to you at http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=32017214&postcount=81
before we get into more, cause I gave you good answers and you have ignored them.
And FYI -the clouds are the Cherubim He is coming on.
The white horse is for swift judgment against the armies of the nations gathered against Jerusalem.

The Throne of glory is for the judgement of Israel [the elect] as they are gathered from the remaining parts of the world by angels, first, brought to the wilderness -at Sinai- and passed under the Rod, as Ezekiel 20:33-44 shows.

Then the Gentiles of the nations remaining are gathered before Him there, by the angels, and separated into sheep and goats, with the goats sent live, into the lake of fire to join the beast and the armies of the antichrist.

The Blessed Of Israel and the Blessed of the Gentiles are granted eternal life in the New covenant and enter the Millennial reign as the ones who populate the earth for the thousand years.

Clouds/ a whirlwind/ lightning are mentioned much in relation to the Cherubim, who bear the Throne of Glory.

Click to expand...

Eze 1:1¶Now it came to pass in the thirtieth year, in the fourth [month], in the fifth [day] of the month, as I [was] among the captives by the river of Chebar, [that] the heavens were opened, and I saw visions of God.

Eze 1:4¶And I looked, and, behold, a whirlwind came out of the north, a great cloud, and a fire infolding itself, and a brightness [was] about it, and out of the midst thereof as the colour of amber, out of the midst of the fire.

Eze 1:5 Also out of the midst thereof [came] the likeness of four living creatures. And this [was] their appearance; they had the likeness of a man.
Eze 1:6 And every one had four faces, and every one had four wings....

As for the likeness of the living creatures, their appearance [was] like burning coals of fire, [and] like the appearance of lamps: it went up and down among the living creatures; and the fire was bright, and out of the fire went forth lightning.

Eze 1:14 And the living creatures ran and returned as the appearance of a flash of lightning.

Eze 1:24 And when they went, I heard the noise of their wings, like the noise of great waters, as the voice of the Almighty, the voice of speech, as the noise of an host: when they stood, they let down their wings.
Eze 1:25 And there was a voice from the firmament that [was] over their heads, when they stood, [and] had let down their wings.
Eze 1:26¶And above the firmament that [was] over their heads [was] the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne [was] the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it
Eze 1:27 And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about.

Eze 1:28 As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so [was] the appearance of the brightness round about. This [was] the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw [it], I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.

He dwells between the Cherubim;
2Ki 19:15 And Hezekiah prayed before the LORD, and said, O LORD God of Israel, which dwellest [between] the cherubims, thou art the God, [even] thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; thou hast made heaven and earth.

The Throne is His Chariot;

1Ch 28:18 And for the altar of incense refined gold by weight; and gold for the pattern of the chariot of the cherubims, that spread out [their wings], and covered the ark of the covenant of the LORD.

2Ch 3:14 And he made the vail [of] blue, and purple, and crimson, and fine linen, and wrought cherubims thereon.

2Ch 5:7 And the priests brought in the ark of the covenant of the LORD unto his place, to the oracle of the house, into the most holy [place, even] under the wings of the cherubims:

2Ch 5:8 For the cherubims spread forth [their] wings over the place of the ark, and the cherubims covered the ark and the staves thereof above.

Psa 80:1 [[To the chief Musician upon Shoshannimeduth, A Psalm of Asaph.]] Give ear, O Shepherd of Israel, thou that leadest Joseph like a flock; thou that dwellest [between] the cherubims, shine forth.

Psa 99:1 The LORD reigneth; let the people tremble: he sitteth [between] the cherubims; let the earth be moved.

Isa 37:16 O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest [between] the cherubims, thou [art] the God, [even] thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou hast made heaven and earth.

Eze 10:1 Then I looked, and, behold, in the firmament that was above the head of the cherubims there appeared over them as it were a sapphire stone, as the appearance of the likeness of a throne.

Eze 10:2 And he spake unto the man clothed with linen, and said, Go in between the wheels, [even] under the cherub, and fill thine hand with coals of fire from between the cherubims, and scatter [them] over the city. And he went in in my sight.

Eze 10:3 Now the cherubims stood on the right side of the house, when the man went in; and the cloud filled the inner court.

Eze 10:5 And the sound of the cherubims' wings was heard [even] to the outer court, as the voice of the Almighty God when he speaketh.

Eze 10:6 And it came to pass, [that] when he had commanded the man clothed with linen, saying, Take fire from between the wheels, from between the cherubims; then he went in, and stood beside the wheels.

Eze 10:7 And [one] cherub stretched forth his hand from between the cherubims unto the fire that [was] between the cherubims, and took [thereof], and put [it] into the hands of [him that was] clothed with linen: who took [it], and went out.

Eze 10:8 And there appeared in the cherubims the form of a man's hand under their wings.

Eze 10:9 And when I looked, behold the four wheels by the cherubims, one wheel by one cherub, and another wheel by another cherub: and the appearance of the wheels [was] as the colour of a beryl stone.

Eze 10:15 And the cherubims were lifted up. This [is] the living creature that I saw by the river of Chebar.

Eze 10:16 And when the cherubims went, the wheels went by them: and when the cherubims lifted up their wings to mount up from the earth, the same wheels also turned not from beside them.

Eze 10:18 Then the glory of the LORD departed from off the threshold of the house, and stood over the cherubims.

Eze 10:19 And the cherubims lifted up their wings, and mounted up from the earth in my sight: when they went out, the wheels also [were] beside them, and [every one] stood at the door of the east gate of the LORD'S house; and the glory of the God of Israel [was] over them above.

Eze 10:20 This [is] the living creature that I saw under the God of Israel by the river of Chebar; and I knew that they [were] the cherubims.

Eze 11:22 Then did the cherubims lift up their wings, and the wheels beside them; and the glory of the God of Israel [was] over them above.

Eze 41:18 And [it was] made with cherubims and palm trees, so that a palm tree [was] between a cherub and a cherub; and [every] cherub had two faces;

Eze 41:20 From the ground unto above the door [were] cherubims and palm trees made, and [on] the wall of the temple.

Eze 41:25 And [there were] made on them, on the doors of the temple, cherubims and palm trees, like as [were] made upon the walls; and [there were] thick planks upon the face of the porch without.

Hbr 9:5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.

Enoch 39
3 And in those days a whirlwind carried me off from the earth,
And set me down at the end of the heavens.

4 And there I saw another vision, the dwelling-places of the holy,
And the resting-places of the righteous.
en carried off in a whirlwind and they had borne me towards the west-
[Chapter 52]
l And after those days in that place where I had seen all the visions of that which is hidden -for 2 I had been carried off in a whirlwind and they had borne me towards the west-

Behold! He cometh with "Cherubim" -like lightning! -and every eye shall see Him.

yeshuasavedme · Feb 19, 2007

yeshuasavedme said:
yeshuasavedme said:

Eze 1:1¶Now it came to pass in the thirtieth year, in the fourth [month], in the fifth [day] of the month, as I [was] among the captives by the river of Chebar, [that] the heavens were opened, and I saw visions of God.

Eze 1:4¶And I looked, and, behold, a whirlwind came out of the north, a great cloud, and a fire infolding itself, and a brightness [was] about it, and out of the midst thereof as the colour of amber, out of the midst of the fire.

Eze 1:5 Also out of the midst thereof [came] the likeness of four living creatures. And this [was] their appearance; they had the likeness of a man.
Eze 1:6 And every one had four faces, and every one had four wings....

As for the likeness of the living creatures, their appearance [was] like burning coals of fire, [and] like the appearance of lamps: it went up and down among the living creatures; and the fire was bright, and out of the fire went forth lightning.

Eze 1:14 And the living creatures ran and returned as the appearance of a flash of lightning.

Eze 1:24 And when they went, I heard the noise of their wings, like the noise of great waters, as the voice of the Almighty, the voice of speech, as the noise of an host: when they stood, they let down their wings.
Eze 1:25 And there was a voice from the firmament that [was] over their heads, when they stood, [and] had let down their wings.
Eze 1:26¶And above the firmament that [was] over their heads [was] the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne [was] the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it
Eze 1:27 And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about.

Eze 1:28 As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so [was] the appearance of the brightness round about. This [was] the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw [it], I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.

He dwells between the Cherubim;
2Ki 19:15 And Hezekiah prayed before the LORD, and said, O LORD God of Israel, which dwellest [between] the cherubims, thou art the God, [even] thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; thou hast made heaven and earth.

The Throne is His Chariot;

1Ch 28:18 And for the altar of incense refined gold by weight; and gold for the pattern of the chariot of the cherubims, that spread out [their wings], and covered the ark of the covenant of the LORD.

2Ch 3:14 And he made the vail [of] blue, and purple, and crimson, and fine linen, and wrought cherubims thereon.

2Ch 5:7 And the priests brought in the ark of the covenant of the LORD unto his place, to the oracle of the house, into the most holy [place, even] under the wings of the cherubims:

2Ch 5:8 For the cherubims spread forth [their] wings over the place of the ark, and the cherubims covered the ark and the staves thereof above.

Psa 80:1 [[To the chief Musician upon Shoshannimeduth, A Psalm of Asaph.]] Give ear, O Shepherd of Israel, thou that leadest Joseph like a flock; thou that dwellest [between] the cherubims, shine forth.

Psa 99:1 The LORD reigneth; let the people tremble: he sitteth [between] the cherubims; let the earth be moved.

Isa 37:16 O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest [between] the cherubims, thou [art] the God, [even] thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou hast made heaven and earth.

Eze 10:1 Then I looked, and, behold, in the firmament that was above the head of the cherubims there appeared over them as it were a sapphire stone, as the appearance of the likeness of a throne.

Eze 10:2 And he spake unto the man clothed with linen, and said, Go in between the wheels, [even] under the cherub, and fill thine hand with coals of fire from between the cherubims, and scatter [them] over the city. And he went in in my sight.

Eze 10:3 Now the cherubims stood on the right side of the house, when the man went in; and the cloud filled the inner court.

Eze 10:5 And the sound of the cherubims' wings was heard [even] to the outer court, as the voice of the Almighty God when he speaketh.

Eze 10:6 And it came to pass, [that] when he had commanded the man clothed with linen, saying, Take fire from between the wheels, from between the cherubims; then he went in, and stood beside the wheels.

Eze 10:7 And [one] cherub stretched forth his hand from between the cherubims unto the fire that [was] between the cherubims, and took [thereof], and put [it] into the hands of [him that was] clothed with linen: who took [it], and went out.

Eze 10:8 And there appeared in the cherubims the form of a man's hand under their wings.

Eze 10:9 And when I looked, behold the four wheels by the cherubims, one wheel by one cherub, and another wheel by another cherub: and the appearance of the wheels [was] as the colour of a beryl stone.

Eze 10:15 And the cherubims were lifted up. This [is] the living creature that I saw by the river of Chebar.

Eze 10:16 And when the cherubims went, the wheels went by them: and when the cherubims lifted up their wings to mount up from the earth, the same wheels also turned not from beside them.

Eze 10:18 Then the glory of the LORD departed from off the threshold of the house, and stood over the cherubims.

Eze 10:19 And the cherubims lifted up their wings, and mounted up from the earth in my sight: when they went out, the wheels also [were] beside them, and [every one] stood at the door of the east gate of the LORD'S house; and the glory of the God of Israel [was] over them above.

Eze 10:20 This [is] the living creature that I saw under the God of Israel by the river of Chebar; and I knew that they [were] the cherubims.

Eze 11:22 Then did the cherubims lift up their wings, and the wheels beside them; and the glory of the God of Israel [was] over them above.

Eze 41:18 And [it was] made with cherubims and palm trees, so that a palm tree [was] between a cherub and a cherub; and [every] cherub had two faces;

Eze 41:20 From the ground unto above the door [were] cherubims and palm trees made, and [on] the wall of the temple.

Eze 41:25 And [there were] made on them, on the doors of the temple, cherubims and palm trees, like as [were] made upon the walls; and [there were] thick planks upon the face of the porch without.

Hbr 9:5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.

Enoch 39
3 And in those days a whirlwind carried me off from the earth,
And set me down at the end of the heavens.

4 And there I saw another vision, the dwelling-places of the holy,
And the resting-places of the righteous.
en carried off in a whirlwind and they had borne me towards the west-
[Chapter 52]
l And after those days in that place where I had seen all the visions of that which is hidden -for 2 I had been carried off in a whirlwind and they had borne me towards the west-

Behold! He cometh with "Cherubim" -like lightning! -and every eye shall see Him.

Click to expand...

And Enoch also went into the presense of the Head of Days by a "cloud";

from chapter 14
And the vision was shown to me thus: Behold, in the vision cloudsinvitedme and a mist summoned me, and the course of the stars and the lightnings sped and hastened me, and the winds in 9 the vision caused me to fly and lifted me upward, and bore me into heaven. And I went in till I drew nigh to a wall which is built of crystals and surrounded by tongues of fire: and it began to affright 10 me. And I went into the tongues of fire and drew nigh to a large house which was built of crystals: and the walls of the house were like a tesselated floor (made) of crystals, and its groundwork was 11 of crystal. Its ceiling was like the path of the stars and the lightnings, and between them were 12 fiery cherubim, and their heaven was (clear as) water. A flaming fire surrounded the walls, and its 13 14 were no delights of life therein: fear covered portals blazed with fire. And I entered into that house, and it was hot as fire and cold as ice: there me, and trembling got hold upon me. And as I quaked 15 16 than the former, and the entire portal stood open before and trembled, I fell upon my face. And I beheld a vision, And lo! there was a second house, greater me, and it was built of flames of fire. And in every respect it so excelled in splendour and magnificence and extent that I cannot describe to 17 you its splendour and its extent. And its floor was of fire, and above it were lightnings and the path 18 of the stars, and its ceiling also was flaming fire. And I looked and saw therein a lofty throne: its appearance was as crystal, and the wheels thereof as the shining sun, and there was the vision of 19 20 thereon. And the Great Glory sat thereon, and His raiment shone more brightly than the sun and 21 22 of the magnificence and glory and no flesh could behold Him. The flaming fire was round about Him, and a great fire stood before Him, and none around could draw nigh Him: ten thousand times 23 ten thousand (stood) before Him, yet He needed no counselor. And the most holy ones who were 24 nigh to Him did not leave by night nor depart from Him. And until then I had been prostrate on my face, trembling: and the Lord called cherubim. And from underneath the throne came streams of flaming fire so that I could not look was whiter than any snow. None of the angels could enter and could behold His face by reason me with His own mouth, and said to me: ' Come hither, 25 Enoch, and hear my word.' And one of the holy ones came to me and waked me, and He made me rise up and approach the door: and I bowed my face downwards.

Click to expand...

yeshuasavedme · Feb 19, 2007

In Psalm 75:2,3, in the original HEbrew, Jesus says He will "laqach" =rapture off earth, the congregation before He vindicates them on the wicked of earth, and that the earth will 'dissolve' -but He says;
"I bear up the pillars of it".

yeshuasavedme · Feb 19, 2007

Caiaiphas was dead before Jerusalem fell. He died about 44 Ad a th age of about 60.
He had been made high priest in 18 AD, and to be so, he had to have been over 30 -and probably was closer to 40.
John wrote the Revelation after Jerusalem fell.

But Caiaphas is guaranteed to see the LORD coming on the Cherubim of His Glory! -with all the wicked, from hell beneath!

[Chapter 1]
1 The words of the blessing of Enoch, wherewith he blessed the elect and righteous, who will be

2 living in the day of tribulation, when all the wicked and godless are to be removed.

And he took up his parable and said -Enoch a righteous man, whose eyes were opened by God, saw the vision of the Holy One in the heavens, which the angels showed me, and from them I heard everything, and from them I understood as I saw, but not for this generation, but for a remote one which is

3 for to come. Concerning the elect I said, and took up my parable concerning them:
The Holy Great One will come forth from His dwelling,
4 And the eternal God will tread upon the earth, (even) on Mount Sinai,
[And appear from His camp]
And appear in the strength of His might from the heaven of heavens.
5 And all shall be smitten with fear
And the Watchers shall quake,
And great fear and trembling shall seize them unto the ends of the earth.
6 And the high mountains shall be shaken,
And the high hills shall be made low,
And shall melt like wax before the flame
7 And the earth shall be wholly rent in sunder,
And all that is upon the earth shall perish,
And there shall be a judgement upon all (men).
8 But with the righteous He will make peace.
And will protect the elect,
And mercy shall be upon them.
And they shall all belong to God,
And they shall be prospered,
And they shall all be blessed.
And He will help them all,
And light shall appear unto them,
And He will make peace with them'.
9 And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones
To execute judgement upon all,
And to destroy all the ungodly:
And to convict all flesh
Of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed,
And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.

yeshuasavedme · Feb 19, 2007

All sinners shall pass away when the Son of Man comes on His throne of glory;

from enoch 69

7 And he sat on the throne of his glory,
And the sum of judgement was given unto the Son of Man,
And he caused the sinners to pass away and be destroyed from off the face of the earth,
And those who have led the world astray. 28 With chains shall they be bound,
And in their assemblage-place of destruction shall they be imprisoned,
And all their works vanish from the face of the earth.
29 And from henceforth there shall be nothing corruptible;
For that Son of Man has appeared,
And has seated himself on the throne of his glory,
And all evil shall pass away before his face,
And the word of that Son of Man shall go forth
And be strong before the Lord of Spirits.

NumberOneSon · Feb 21, 2007

Prophecy Countdown said:
Now your turn. My quoted Bible verses were.

Prophecy Countdown said:
Mark 13: 31. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
Mark 13: 32. “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, NOR THE SON, but ONLY THE FATHER.

Your reply was the opposite to the statements made by the Lord.
Acts6:5, quote. “You can know the generation in which these things will place without knowing the day or hour. Simple.”
“Jesus could say he would return within His generation without knowing "the day or the hour" of that return. During his earthly ministry, He could be specific concerning the generation but not the day or the hour.” Unquote.

How is that the opposite? Knowing the generation those things would take place in is not the same as knowing the day or the hour.

Prophecy Countdown said:
What do you mean quote.” He could be specific concerning the generation?”

Prophecy Countdown said:
He was VERY specific He said no sign for that generation except the sign of Jonas.
When they asked Him in Matt 16: 1, If He ‘would shew them a sign from heaven.’ He said. Matt 16: 4.” A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.”

Ok, lets examine your interpretation. Luke 11:29 explains what Jesus meant by the “sign of the prophet Jonas”; he said “For as Jonas was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation”. Jonah spent 3 days of internment in the belly of a whale, while Jesus spent 3 days of internment in the grave. We are in agreement on the definition of the “sign of Jonas” because verse 29 explains it, correct?

Now first of all, you believe Jesus couldn’t have returned in His generation because there was no sign for His generation except the sign of Jonas. But the kind of “sign” Jesus was referring to in Matthew 16:4 has absolutely nothing to do with a sign of the 2nd Coming. The context is clear: the Pharisees & Sadducees were trying to make Jesus perform a miraculous sign to test him, and Jesus replied by saying an evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign (like in verse 1), and a sign (like in verse 1) will not be given to it. Did Jesus perform a miraculous sign for the Pharisees & Sadducees? No, he did not give them what they had asked for. But your interpretation changes “sign” into “sign of the 2nd Coming”, essentially making the verse say “an evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and a sign of my 2nd Coming will not be given to it,” an idea that cannot be gleaned from anything found in Matthew 16:1-4, especially since the Pharisees & Sadducees didn't believe that Jesus was the Messiah's 1st Coming. Please explain how you reach your conclusions.

Secondly, Jesus even verified that there were signs of the times around that the Pharisees & Sadducees were not discerning: “O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?”

Thirdly, if you say all the Jews living in Jesus generation only received the “sign of Jonas”(Christ's burial and resurrection), then you contradict the fact that there were many “signs” witnessed by Jews living in Jesus’ generation as recorded in the New Testament, signs in both the heavens and on the earth that validated Jesus' Messianic claims. In fact, Matthew 16 is sandwiched in between two chapters that contain miraculous signs and wonders that were witnessed by Jews in Jesus’ generation. And even after Jesus’ ministry, the Book of Acts contains the signs and wonders of the Apostles and the Early Church.

So to wrap this part up, you need to explain to me why Matthew 16:4 is referring to signs of the Second Coming (like in Matthew 24), rather than signs and wonders like the Pharisees and Sadducees had described in verse 1. And you also have to explain why the 1st Century Jews would only receive the "sign of Jonas" despite the fact that the NT explicitly lists scores of miraculous signs and wonders that were witnessed by Jews during that same time period.

Now I believe that the “evil and adulterous generation” Jesus was referring to in that particular passage was the unbelieving Pharisees & Sadducees of the First Century (because they were the ones testing Jesus, provoking him to perform a sign in the heavens). He did not perform any signs for them to prove his Messianic office other than providing the “sign of Jonah”, but there were many signs given to other Jews in the 1st Century, as our Heavenly Father directed. Of that fact there is no doubt (we have the testimony of the scriptures to prove it), so you cannot possibly say that your interpretation of "no sign" in Matthew 16 is valid because the unbelieving Jews, Pharisees, and Sadducees were around at a time when other recorded signs were performed. However, the signs weren’t for them. Jesus said He hadn't come for those who were healthy (or those who thought they were), but He came for those who were sick. Jesus' signs and wonders weren't meant for the Pharisees, the Sadducees, the Scribes, the unbelievers; the signs were meant for those who would heed the call to repentence.

Prophecy Countdown said:
This is the reason I have no respect whatsoever in the integrity of Preterists, like you. You just drift around making huge counter statements to those of The Lord's, and it takes people like me a Herculean effort to clean up the mess you leave behind.

I believe you are the one making statements contrary to those of the Lord’s in this instance, however I would love to hear your explanation as to how you come to your conclusions. I do not believe the Pharisees & Sadducees were given any signs except the sign of Jonah, but the signs which were present during their lifetime were meant for those the Father was drawing to His Son. There were miraculous signs and wonders present in Jesus' generation and there were signs of the times present in Jesus' generation (v.3), but they were not given to the “evil and adulterous” Jews, nor could they discern them.

Prophecy Countdown said:
Why do you, (just like the Jews), reject the words of ‘no sign’ clearly stated by Jesus?

Because there were many signs present, as per the scriptures, but not for the Pharisees & Sadducees, not for the unbelievers. Jesus was not a carnival act and He did not perform for them. The sign of Jonah was all they would receive. However, the New Testament testifies of a myriad of signs given within Jesus’ generation. The onus is upon you to show that Jesus was referring to “signs of His Second Coming” in Matthew 16:4, and that the “evil and adulterous generation” in verse 4 were people other than the unbelieving Jews, first and foremost being the Pharisees & Sadducees who had requested a sign. Obviously not all of the Jews in the First Century were evil and adulterous since the original Church was entirely Jewish.

Prophecy Countdown said:
So what do others say about your idea?
“35–38. Verse 35–36 warn against attempts to set an exact date for Christ’s return at the end of the Church Age (a warning unheeded by the Adventists in 1844, the Jehovah’s Witnesses in 1916, and many others). To speculate that “day” and “hour” do not eliminate “year” is a gross oversimplification. The Father only knows the time of Christ’s return since it has been set by His authority (cf. Acts 1:7).”

When did I ever say that knowing the “generation” meant knowing the “year”? I never said that, nor do I believe that. I simply believe that when Jesus said “this generation” in Matthew 24 He meant His generation. And that meant His return could have been in 4 years or in 40 years - there was no specific year alluded to, unlike the Adventists’ prediction. So Jesus didn’t have to know the second, minute, hour, day, week, year, or decade to know that it would happen within His generation. A generation is a long time.

Besides, I don’t normally care if others agree with me or not. This isn’t a popularity contest and I don’t base my beliefs on what "others say". I expect people of other eschatological persuasions to disagree with me.

Prophecy Countdown said:
So your argument suggests you are like Parousia, and erroneously believe that Jesus, came in 70AD which is not the case.

My argument suggests that, like Parousia, I believe that Jesus could know that He would return within His generation without knowing the second, minute, hour, day, week, year, or decade of that return. And I do believe that Jesus is coming again.

Prophecy Countdown said:
Matthew 24: 6. When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath PUT IN HIS OWN POWER."
Credit to; Jerry Falwell, executive editor; Edward E. Hinson and Michael Kroll Woodrow, general editors, KJV Bible commentary [computer file], electronic ed., Logos Library System, (Nashville: Thomas Nelson) 1997, c1994.

I think you meant Acts 1:6. But anyway, it was for them to know “when will these things be, and what shall be the sign of thy coming and the end of the age(Matt 24:3)”. Jesus did spend time instructing them on that. These Disciples were to be led into “all truth” and the Spirit of Truth would be given to them to show them the “things to come” (John 16:13). It is the reason why Paul could say that the Romans’ salvation was closer than when they first believed (Romans 13:11), that he had no reason to write to Thessalonians concerning the “times and seasons” because they already knew that the day would not overtake them like a thief in the night (5:1-4). It’s the reason John could tell the original recipients of his letter that this was the last hour (1John 2:18).

If the Disciples and Apostles weren’t meant to know about the “times and seasons” of Christ’s coming then they wouldn’t have instructed the Church on such matters, but the NT record shows that they did.

I’ll address the rest of your post soon.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

gwynedd1 · Feb 21, 2007

JerryShugart said:
The partial preterists make a huge mistake when the attempt to make the events that will occur at the "end of the age" unto a judgment on Israel alone. The Lord Jesus' words in Matthew 24 were in regard to the following question:

Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the age? (Mt.24:3).

Earlier the Lord Jesus spoke the parable of the tares of the field where He described what would occur at the end of the age:

He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this age. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear (Mt.13:37-43).

Here we can see that the Lord Jesus speaks of a harvest that will happen at the end of the age, the end of this age. He also makes it clear that the harvest will take place in the field, and He says that the field is the world (kosmos).

The Greek word translated world is kosmos and it means the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human raceMt.xiii. 38 (Thayers Greek English Lexicon).

Since no world wide harvest happened in A.D.70 or at anytime in the past it is evident that the "end of the age" remains in the future.

The partial preterists are wrong.

In His grace,--Jerry

What do we know what offends? There is no salvation beyond the grave. That implies salvation exists for all until the grave. Where then is the offense if a man is justified by turning to Christ? What do we know about it? A man can be evil and be redeemed. Are they in offense if they will repent? Our ends happen at different times but Christ was the true judge and it was when he went to glory that all judgement could be made.
Have you considered that until Christ no facility for final judgement even existed? All things that require judgement go to our courts but in due time.

This verse?
Daniel 12

This implies that those who sleep are judged. The whole of one's life is to be judged.

2: And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Matthew 27

51: And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom; and the earth shook, and the rocks were split;
52: the tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised,
53: and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

Notice it is only those who sleep that come to judgement? It seems reasonable that there is room to consider that no judgement was rendered until Christ and it is only when the harvest is ready(when we sleep). Eitherway your absolute position is called into question as being sufficiant to prove the point or at least should suffice enough to abandon your hubris.
The interpretation that is reasonable is no man alive can be ultimately judged. Consider good and evil in our eyes. Is it good to to work at a factory and have an accident and loose a finger? Had it resulted in time off work the day before a gas explosion what would you say about it then? What do we know about it other than any man live may be justified by Christ and ONLY the dead are judged as the verses indicated.

NumberOneSon · Feb 22, 2007

Prophecy Countdown said:
Acts6:5, quote. “Everybody thinks their own eschatological view is right - even you think your End Times position is right.” Unquote.

Prophecy Countdown said:
Well you are flat busted wrong on that notion wrong as well.

I’m always searching, running to and fro over the Bible, looking and studying and praying to find better understanding.

PC, I’ll make this as simple as possible. You are a futurist. Your profile icon says you believe in futurism. You’ve being trying to refute preterism on this thread using futurist interpretations. Your interpretations of Daniel are futuristic. You post excerpts from futurist authors. You obviously believe that futurism is the most correct eschatological position for you or else you wouldn’t espouse it.

When I say “you think your End Times position is right”, it’s obvious from your posts that you believe your views are correct, as opposed to preterism or any other eschatological view. I was not inferring that you are unwilling to change your beliefs or that your views are locked in stasis; I was simply stating that you, as a futurist, believe that futurism is correct. In the same way, I believe preterism is correct. Now, I’m certainly open to other interpretations, and I believe I could be as wrong in my position as anybody else, but I certainly do believe that preterism is correct.

So no, I wasn’t wrong. At this time you do believe that futurism is right. Are you studying, praying, and open to “better understandings”? Sure, you have made that clear. But that doesn’t change the fact that you believe in futurism and believe it is the most correct view. You are not coming to this forum as a newbie Christian, having never heard of eschatology before, and just trying to formulate a fledgling position. You are a firm believer in futurism, and although I respect that, please don’t try to tell me that your willingness to pray and study keeps you from believing that futurism is the right eschatology.

Prophecy Countdown said:
Yet from you lot we get told ‘it’s a done deal’
Daniel was told to ‘seal up the book until the time of the end’ and that understanding of it would not be before that time.
The ‘historic view,’ holds back growth in scriptural understanding.

Not true. I’ve grown far more in my scriptural understanding after having changed to preterism then I had when I was a futurist. The “done deal” you’ll get from Orthodox preterists is that God destroyed the husbandmen and gave the vineyard to others in AD70 (Luke 20:9-19). We believe Christ will come again, so no, everything is not a “done deal”.

Prophecy Countdown said:
Even the translators were so convinced by their ‘historic’ ideas that they placed Daniel 8: at the time of Alexander the great,’ they ignored what the Bible, said and put Greek for the word ‘Yavan’ they caused the vision of Daniel 8 to be misunderstood for decades by insisting it was concerned with the past.

The angel made it absolutely clear ‘Understand o son of man for the vision concerns the time of the end.’ In verse 17 and in 19 calls it ‘the last end.’
The real problem with preterist thinking, is it does not stand biblical scrutiny, Ipso facto.

I’ve found that when people accuse others of “ignoring what the Bible says” it usually just means they simply have different interpretations than you do.

So you’ve studied Hebrew and Greek? How extensive is your knowledge of those tongues?

Prophecy Countdown said:
Not all the Jews were wrong, some followed Jesus, but comparisons are obvious with preterist thinking just like the Pharisees and Sadducees and scribes with their looking back and not seeing what was going on around them and because preterists aren’t looking in the right place because they teach that Jesus came in 70AD is just plain stupidity and like the Jews will miss out.

Miss out on what, exactly? Salvation? The rapture? What? I think futurists have things in common as well, but I would never liken you to the Pharisees and Sadducees. I think it’s just a veiled insult on your part and not conducive to constructive debate. It’s rather lowbrow, really.

Prophecy Countdown said:
As far as my quote ‘end time position being right’ unquote, is not the issue.
I have never claimed that at all.

But you made it an issue because you were the one who originally claimed in your 2/16 post that the Jews thought they were right and that preterists think they’re right. My only point was to say that everyone who has an eschatological viewpoint (whether Pharisee, or preterist, or futurist, or histocist, or idealist, etc) believes their viewpoint is right, so it makes no sense for you to act like having strongly held beliefs is a Pharisiac/preteristic phenomena. Most of the people who frequent this board firmly believe their views as much as any preterist does. If you don’t like the word “right” then I’ll say “most correct”, so maybe that wording will better convey my meaning.

You’re as firmly entrenched in your futurist beliefs as I am in my preterist beliefs, however I recognize that your not being“prideful” in this and I would never compare you to Scribes or Pharisees, but you however cannot seem to discern “strongly held beliefs” from “pride”, and you make unwarranted accusations toward your fellow brothers in Christ that are unnecessary and inaccurate.

Prophecy Countdown said:
Either Christians support the Bible, or they don’t and when they don’t and indoctrinate others, I and many others then step in, using the Bible, to show why I don’t agree.

“Either Christians support the Bible, or they don’t” = either Christians support Prophecy Countdown’s interpretation of the Bible, or they don’t.

Hey PC, how is it that preterists are here “indoctrinating” others when this thread has been the first real debate on preterism in this forum in over a year? Gal328 is not a preterist and he’s the one who created the thread, not preterists, so we wouldn’t even be having this discussion right now if a futurist hadn’t brought it up. Jipsah and I are the two most active preterists on this forum and we rarely even mention preterism. So where is the indoctrination?

Tell me, where were you when MindonFire was using this forum (among others) as his personal website so he could preach at us on a weekly basis? Where are you when DanJudge creates threads simply so he can cut n’ paste book chapters from some guy he admires? If you're on the hunt for indoctrination, you're barking up the wrong tree.

Prophecy Countdown said:
If I find something in the Bible that proves me erroneous, then I will retract.

Great, glad to see that you are open to change. I am as well (obviously, because I was once a futurist). The difference is, you find preterist doctrine to be erroneous while I don’t.

NumberOneSon · Feb 22, 2007

(CONTINUED FROM ABOVE POST)

Prophecy Countdown said:
Nobody is right 100% not even the Disciples, Peter and Paul argued certain points.

I never said 100% right, as if I meant everyones views were locked and unmovable. I just said everyone thinks their views are right, in the normative sense of the word. Man, you are certainly splitting hairs and parsing words here.

And Peter and Paul didnt stoop to likening the other person to evil unregenerates, like you have been doing. Learn to disagree with other Christians respectfully, PC.

Prophecy Countdown said:
Likening a preterist to the evil generation of Jews is dead right!
Because preterists are too proud to admit error, even when it is put right in front of them from the Bible and you have just proven that.

Its not pride, PC. We simply have different interpretations than you. Thats all. Its the reason Pre-tribs disagree with Post-tribs. Or Pre-wraths with Post-wraths. Or Premillenialists with Amillenialists. The disagreements have absolutely NOTHING to do with pride, and everything to do with the simple fact that we all approach the scriptures differently.

Prophecy Countdown said:
Thats how you tell an indoctrinated preterist with preconceived ideas, from that of true Bible Christians.
I have seen here, where biblical arguments put against preterists, have stood firm. Yet after the preterist, is proven wrong, they simply ignore the biblical proof just like you will ignore the fact that, that generation were told NO SIGN and just like Jipsah and Parousia you wont see it.

Again, its all about differing opinions, not indoctrination. Just because you think your opinion on a particular scripture is obvious and true doesnt make it so to somebody else. I responded to your no sign interpretation on my #93 post, so I will not address it further here.

Prophecy Countdown said:
Nobody said it was the futurist site so dont exaggerate! I said it was an eschatological site. I suggest you get a better dictionary.

But in your 2/16 post, you asked why preterists come to a place called eschatology if they erroneously claim that Jesus came in 70AD, and my response was because preterism is an eschatological position. So if you know this is an eschatological forum (and not just a forum for your futurism views), and if you know preterism is an eschatological position, then there was no need for you to even ask why preterists post here, because the answer is obvious - preterism is a part of eschatology.

Prophecy Countdown said:
Heres another little gem.

Parousia, quote, Jesus came in 70AD.

Preterists deal in the past they even try to pull parts of Matt 24; Mark 13: Luke 21: apart to the past like the abomination of desolation which is set up for 1290 days not years in Dan 12: 11. where that one vision right through was from 10: to 11: through to 12: where they deal with the resurrection and mentions the 1335 days for those that pass through it, are to be blessed, thats wedding supper promise speak of Rev 19: 1 10.

Preterists change days into years, place the seventy weeks in the past by trying to align Daniel 9: 25 the decree to BUILD JERUEALEM to the Cyrus creed to BUILD THE TEMPLE OF GOD. Two different decrees and in doing that they force read them together and force an early date, that is against the word of Gabriel.
Gabriel, states the vision of Daniel 8: concerns the time of the end then uses the explanation of the seventy weeks to explain the vision of Daniel 8, which locks the seventy weeks to that visions time of the end period.
Yet a preterist said to me, quote. O the time of the end and last end is so vague. The only thing vague was his ability to understand what sayeth the Bible in plain English. Preterists slide from under tricky questions they just cant answer so by moving on to something else avoid having to. If most here are like me they would be well and truly sick of them. Annoying people just like the Jews were to Jesus.

Ill let Parousia handle her own gems.

Prophecy Countdown said:
Check your own eyes for splinters are you sure you are not a Scribe with their pompous always right attitude?

You cant even apologize for wrongly accusing Orthodox preterists of breaking forum rules. Amazing. You rarely participate on this forum, so you have no idea what my attitude is like. And I cant recall even talking with you in the past, so we dont have any history upon which to make such a judgment. I simply asked you to apologize and watch your attitude, and yet you say that I have a pompous always right attitude? Go ask Big Mouth Nana about me if you want to gauge my attitude; weve sparred on numerous issues several years ago, including preterism, but shell vouch for my attitude and character. Ive even apologized to her in the past, and despite our disagreements, we still like each other.

Prophecy Countdown said:
Preterists say one thing and do another, by their actions just like the Sadducees.
Those that are of the spirit of the Pharisees, proud, formal, and imposing, what figure soever they make, and of what denomination soever they be, God will not own them as of his planting. By their fruit you shall know them.

(3.) Those plants that are not of Gods planting, shall not be of his protecting, but shall undoubtedly be rooted up. What is not of God shall not stand, Acts 5:38. WHAT THINGS ARE UNSCRIPTURAL, WILL WITHER AND DIE of themselves, or be justly exploded by the churches; however in the great day these tares that offend will be bundled for the fire. What is become of the Pharisees and their traditions?

I m not the one who refuses to apologize for falsely accusing posters of breaking forum rules. Im not the one who likens brethren in Christ who disagree with me to Pharisees and comes dangerously close to calling posters the unbelieving tares of Matthew 13. You chastised me for presuming to know what people think, but then you, youself, presume to know that pride is the reason Preterists dont acquiesce to your interpretations, as if you have the power of God, to know what (preterists) think. Now thats pride and hypocrisy for you.

I gladly admit Im not perfect, and I certainly believe I have much to learn about eschatology. Ive been wrong before and Ill be wrong again. If youve had run-ins with preterists on other boards who havent changed their beliefs, despite all of the proofs youve presented, then just consider that, instead of pride, they probably just dont agree with you. Its the same reason you hear preterist arguments and dont come away convinced either. Its not pride, just differing opinions. To each his own.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

Parousia · Mar 5, 2007

Acts6:5 said:

(CONTINUED FROM ABOVE POST)

Ill let Parousia handle her own gems.

Acts6:5

Click to expand...

Sorry, Acts 6:5, I am not allowed to "handle" my "gems." I've been told to shut up. Apparently, wild speculation, twisting of Scripture, ripping it out of its context, and redefining simple words is acceptable here but taking words at face value is not--(e.g. "The coming of the Lord is AT HAND", or "The end of ALL things is AT HAND.")

I do not understand my crime in taking "THIS generation will by no means pass away till ALL these things take place" literally. Yet people are free to find Antichrists everywhere and to CLEARLY see modern cities in the pages of the Bible (e.g. Russia, Iran, etc.). That's perfectly okay!

Yet, I'm the heretic! What have I ever done except take Jesus at His word and the inspired writers at their word? Doing so makes me a terrible threat on this board!

Now again, I have probably said too much and will incur the wrath of the moderator. I just wanted to let everyone know that I am not refusing to answer--I have been forbidden to answer.

But let me get in trouble once again by simply quoting another Scripture:

"For yet a LITTLE while, and He who is COMING will COME and will NOT tarry."

It says what it says!

Parousia

yeshuasavedme · Mar 5, 2007

Not knowing the Day or the Hour of the return of the LORD means He is not coming on a Feast Day, which beginning of each Feast Day was determined by the going down of the sun..

The Rapture of the Church is the catching away of the perfected sons of God [made whole/holy in the completion of the adoption body, 'put on' as a garment for glory to the adoption Spirit which the cleansed souls "wear" forever, when the Father tells the Son it is "Time"; and the Son calls the Gathering together unto Him of the entire congregation, gathered from "the ends of heaven" and from earth below Psalm 50;

The call is given by the sounding of the two heavenly trumpets which are expressly made for that purpose of calling and ordering the congregation, Numbers 10:1-7;

and the dead bodies of the Saints in heaven rise from the graves translated from the elements of this creation first, then the living are translated elementally in their bodies and rise to meet the LORD at His door, in the air, all together, and He invites the entire congregation to come into their rooms and shut their doors behind them until the indignation be past, Isaiah 26:19-21;

and they all go in together, shut their doors, and remain behind the closed doors of the Holy of Holies in the created heavenly temple and celebrate their consecration as priests, clothed [perfected] in garments of glory and beauty, "standing before the Son of Man" for seven days -while seven years pass, on earth, Leviticus 8.

The Father is waiting only for the number to be filled which must be filled, of born again souls who answer the call to come to the "wedding" of the Son, for His "house" will be "filled", as the parable of the wedding feast teaches.

Parousia · Mar 21, 2007

yeshuasavedme said:
yeshuasavedme said:

Eze 1:1¶Now it came to pass in the thirtieth year, in the fourth [month], in the fifth [day] of the month, as I [was] among the captives by the river of Chebar, [that] the heavens were opened, and I saw visions of God.

Eze 1:4¶And I looked, and, behold, a whirlwind came out of the north, a great cloud, and a fire infolding itself, and a brightness [was] about it, and out of the midst thereof as the colour of amber, out of the midst of the fire.

Eze 1:5 Also out of the midst thereof [came] the likeness of four living creatures. And this [was] their appearance; they had the likeness of a man.
Eze 1:6 And every one had four faces, and every one had four wings....

As for the likeness of the living creatures, their appearance [was] like burning coals of fire, [and] like the appearance of lamps: it went up and down among the living creatures; and the fire was bright, and out of the fire went forth lightning.

Eze 1:14 And the living creatures ran and returned as the appearance of a flash of lightning.

Eze 1:24 And when they went, I heard the noise of their wings, like the noise of great waters, as the voice of the Almighty, the voice of speech, as the noise of an host: when they stood, they let down their wings.
Eze 1:25 And there was a voice from the firmament that [was] over their heads, when they stood, [and] had let down their wings.
Eze 1:26¶And above the firmament that [was] over their heads [was] the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne [was] the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it
Eze 1:27 And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about.

Eze 1:28 As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so [was] the appearance of the brightness round about. This [was] the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw [it], I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.

He dwells between the Cherubim;
2Ki 19:15 And Hezekiah prayed before the LORD, and said, O LORD God of Israel, which dwellest [between] the cherubims, thou art the God, [even] thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; thou hast made heaven and earth.

The Throne is His Chariot;

1Ch 28:18 And for the altar of incense refined gold by weight; and gold for the pattern of the chariot of the cherubims, that spread out [their wings], and covered the ark of the covenant of the LORD.

2Ch 3:14 And he made the vail [of] blue, and purple, and crimson, and fine linen, and wrought cherubims thereon.

2Ch 5:7 And the priests brought in the ark of the covenant of the LORD unto his place, to the oracle of the house, into the most holy [place, even] under the wings of the cherubims:

2Ch 5:8 For the cherubims spread forth [their] wings over the place of the ark, and the cherubims covered the ark and the staves thereof above.

Psa 80:1 [[To the chief Musician upon Shoshannimeduth, A Psalm of Asaph.]] Give ear, O Shepherd of Israel, thou that leadest Joseph like a flock; thou that dwellest [between] the cherubims, shine forth.

Psa 99:1 The LORD reigneth; let the people tremble: he sitteth [between] the cherubims; let the earth be moved.

Isa 37:16 O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest [between] the cherubims, thou [art] the God, [even] thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou hast made heaven and earth.

Eze 10:1 Then I looked, and, behold, in the firmament that was above the head of the cherubims there appeared over them as it were a sapphire stone, as the appearance of the likeness of a throne.

Eze 10:2 And he spake unto the man clothed with linen, and said, Go in between the wheels, [even] under the cherub, and fill thine hand with coals of fire from between the cherubims, and scatter [them] over the city. And he went in in my sight.

Eze 10:3 Now the cherubims stood on the right side of the house, when the man went in; and the cloud filled the inner court.

Eze 10:5 And the sound of the cherubims' wings was heard [even] to the outer court, as the voice of the Almighty God when he speaketh.

Eze 10:6 And it came to pass, [that] when he had commanded the man clothed with linen, saying, Take fire from between the wheels, from between the cherubims; then he went in, and stood beside the wheels.

Eze 10:7 And [one] cherub stretched forth his hand from between the cherubims unto the fire that [was] between the cherubims, and took [thereof], and put [it] into the hands of [him that was] clothed with linen: who took [it], and went out.

Eze 10:8 And there appeared in the cherubims the form of a man's hand under their wings.

Eze 10:9 And when I looked, behold the four wheels by the cherubims, one wheel by one cherub, and another wheel by another cherub: and the appearance of the wheels [was] as the colour of a beryl stone.

Eze 10:15 And the cherubims were lifted up. This [is] the living creature that I saw by the river of Chebar.

Eze 10:16 And when the cherubims went, the wheels went by them: and when the cherubims lifted up their wings to mount up from the earth, the same wheels also turned not from beside them.

Eze 10:18 Then the glory of the LORD departed from off the threshold of the house, and stood over the cherubims.

Eze 10:19 And the cherubims lifted up their wings, and mounted up from the earth in my sight: when they went out, the wheels also [were] beside them, and [every one] stood at the door of the east gate of the LORD'S house; and the glory of the God of Israel [was] over them above.

Eze 10:20 This [is] the living creature that I saw under the God of Israel by the river of Chebar; and I knew that they [were] the cherubims.

Eze 11:22 Then did the cherubims lift up their wings, and the wheels beside them; and the glory of the God of Israel [was] over them above.

Eze 41:18 And [it was] made with cherubims and palm trees, so that a palm tree [was] between a cherub and a cherub; and [every] cherub had two faces;

Eze 41:20 From the ground unto above the door [were] cherubims and palm trees made, and [on] the wall of the temple.

Eze 41:25 And [there were] made on them, on the doors of the temple, cherubims and palm trees, like as [were] made upon the walls; and [there were] thick planks upon the face of the porch without.

Hbr 9:5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.

Enoch 39
3 And in those days a whirlwind carried me off from the earth,
And set me down at the end of the heavens.

4 And there I saw another vision, the dwelling-places of the holy,
And the resting-places of the righteous.
en carried off in a whirlwind and they had borne me towards the west-
[Chapter 52]
l And after those days in that place where I had seen all the visions of that which is hidden -for 2 I had been carried off in a whirlwind and they had borne me towards the west-

Behold! He cometh with "Cherubim" -like lightning! -and every eye shall see Him.

Click to expand...

I was just reading over some old posts and noticed that you attributed a quote to me (Parousia) erroneously. I did NOT write that post (see #88)!

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