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Discussion and Debate
Discussion and Debate
Physical & Life Sciences
Part 2 - The Creator has Invalidated Knowing Earth's Age Through Scientific Enquiry
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<blockquote data-quote="2tim_215" data-source="post: 71879999" data-attributes="member: 401929"><p><em></em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em><em>Point by point:</em></em></p><p><em><em>1) The original context of this particular subject is the many books written about a historical man on top of the Bible which is about 4.5B copies estimated (coincidentally the same as the projected number for the Earth’s age according to Evos) and who (or what) or what can compare to that. The first comparisons were Mao Pse Tung's quote which come in 2nd compared to Jesus and the Bible addition to JK Rowland who I believe is 3rd. </em></em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em><em>My response was that JK's books were written solely for entertainment (which I'm sure there were some messages in there as well) and Mao's works (~4B) were written by an evil dictator who most likely forced his citizens to read his propagandistic materials in the largest populated country in the world. When you look at Jesus and what his teaching consisted of, any else written by man throughout his entire history pales in comparison. And you want to say that Shakespeare has contributed more to our society than Jesus has? Has Mao done the same? Or has JK Rowland, who BTW is about as supernatural as one can get?</em></em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em><em>Now most of Shakespeare's works are estimated to be between 2 to 4 Billion in total as far as # circulated. I said 37 plays (you say 38, so I was off by one) which were mostly fiction and the ones that weren't were all about men (all various Kings according to scholars) and 154 fourteen-line poems or sonnets unlike the Bible and Jesus Christ, which were all written about one man mainly and about real persons. The Bible had writings about many "real" men, in addition to Jesus, Mao’s writings (I'm sure) were just about Mao, and JK's were pure fantasy/fiction (although quite entertaining). </em></em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em><em>And unlike Mao, who did terrible things to humanity while ruling China under his communist regime with an iron fist, I know of very few people (with all their interpretations) who can claim that Jesus was an evil person and didn't teach great lessons for all humankind. Also, I don't know of too many people who can claim that Mao was some great person who they'd want to model their sons after.</em></em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em><em>2) As for what you call a "fatal flaw", Let's take a look at what you're referring to and see if that is true:</em></em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em><strong><em>Luke 21:29-36(KJV) </em></strong><em></em></em></p><p><em><em>29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; </em></em></p><p><em><em>30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. </em></em></p><p><em><em>31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. </em></em></p><p><em><em>32 <strong>Verily I say unto you, This <u>generation</u> shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. </strong> </em></em></p><p><em><em>33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. </em></em></p><p><em><em>34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. </em></em></p><p><em><em>35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. </em></em></p><p><em><em>36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. </em></em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em><em>generation </em><strong>G1074 </strong>γενεά genea <em>ghen-eh-ah'</em></em></p><p><span style="font-size: 12px">From (a presumed derivative of) <a href="https://www.christianforums.com/qv://steplinkto0%200000009864" target="_blank">G1085</a>; a generation; by implication <u>an age</u> (the period or the persons):—age, generation, <u>nation</u>, time.</span></p><p><em></em></p><p><em><em>There's more than one way to interpret this. Of course, non-believers will always try to find ways to either make it seem to be a contradiction or illogical for obvious reasons. However, since we (as believers) who believe in God's undeniable truth, will always look first for a realistic and rational explanation before jumping to an illogical conclusion as we also believe that God and the Bible are both logical if interpreted properly. </em></em></p><p><em><em></em></em></p><p><em><em>The explanation here (I believe) is the Greek definition of the word "genea" or "generation" which can be "age" or even meant to be "nation" which in this particular instance would be Jews since that is who Jesus was speaking to, all Jews. If you consider it in the context in which it was given then age would make the most sense. Why? Well for one thing, look at the rest of the verse for further context (which so many who misinterpret or misuse scripture tend to "not do"). Jesus says, "until all be fulfilled". </em></em></p><p><em><em></em></em></p><p><em><em>What does that mean? Well, that's a qualifier. Again, trying to understand the context (which we need for a proper understanding) look at the next verse, 33. "heaven and Earth shall pass away (future event, since we are still here, would you agree?) which is the qualifier to this statement believe. So rephrasing, The Jewish Nation shall remain on this earth until all prophecy is fulfilled which means that there's more to come (prophetically) and as long as there are certain events that have not yet been fulfilled, the Nation Israel (and they being the generation to which Jesus is referring) will still be present on this earth. </em></em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em><em>Now as far as those who were alive at the time when Jesus spoke this, who would be eligible to be those who would see would see Him in His glory while still alive, let's try and see how this played out. First, keep in mind that the original scriptures were not put together the way our Bibles are structured today with Chapters and verses. This was something instituted by man in order to make it easier to reference certain portions that you like to get at more quickly. In the original, there were NO chapters and verses and aside from the overall book (which went by the writer or his scribes name) all verses were run together. As for the separating of the chapters, these too were decided by men who put the entire Bible together based on their own judgment for the most part. </em></em></p><p><em><em></em></em></p><p><em><em>Now, taking this into consideration, if we look at the verses in question, we will see that these all ended the chapter in which they were quoted and that being the case, whatever followed would have to be considered as part of the same context. So as a result, if we look to the next Chapter in our Bibles, we find that just 6 days later that this is when Jesus goes to the Mount of Transfiguration, and who accompanies Him? Peter, James and John, 3 of the disciples who happened to be with Him when He make this statement that there would see Him in His glorious state. So, ending with Matthew 6:18 we now go to Matthew 17:1:</em></em></p><p><em><em><strong>Matthew 16:27-28(KJV) </strong></em></em></p><p> <em><em>27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. </em></em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em><em>The above is referencing a future event, but not the one regarding the next verse. However, we see what’s coming next in the next verse:</em></em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em><em>28 Verily I say unto you, <strong>There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom</strong>.</em></em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em><em>S what is He referring to? See starting in Matthew 17:</em></em></p><p><em><em><strong>Matthew 17:1-13(KJV) </strong></em></em></p><p><em><em>1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, </em></em></p><p><em><em>2 And was <u>transfigured</u> before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. </em></em></p><p><em><em>3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. </em></em></p><p><em><em>4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. </em></em></p><p><em><em>5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. </em></em></p><p><em><em>6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid. </em></em></p><p><em><em>7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid. </em></em></p><p><em><em>8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only. </em></em></p><p><em><em>9 <strong>And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead. </strong></em></em></p><p><em><em>10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come? </em></em></p><p><em><em>11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. </em></em></p><p><em><em>12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. </em></em></p><p><em><em>13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist. </em></em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em><em>The word transfigure, is the Greek word metamorphoō</em> <em>where we get our English word</em> <em>metamorphose from. </em></em></p><p><em><span style="font-size: 12px"><strong><em>transfigured - G3339 </em></strong><em> μεταμορφόω metamorphoō met-am-or-fo'-o</em></span></em></p><p><em><em><span style="font-size: 12px">From <a href="https://www.christianforums.com/qv://steplinkto0%200000012029" target="_blank">G3326</a> and <a href="https://www.christianforums.com/qv://steplinkto0%200000012149" target="_blank">G3445</a>; to transform (literally or figuratively “metamorphose”):—change, transfigure, transform</span>.</em></em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>Notice that in chapter 17, Jesus tells us that this was a vision, which was symbolic (visions are symbolic since they're not real, which is how you can tell to not take it as being literal, which makes sense) and didn't actually happen yet (although it will eventually happen, when Jesus makes His return visit and then , in fact will be literal) and that basically this is just a glimpse of what's to come, which is given to 3 of His most prominent disciples. So, I’m afraid that you have this wrong. There’s no “fatal flaw” here if you interpret it properly.</em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em><em>3) Now there's one more thing that I'd like to address, relating to your suggestions and that is with regards Jesus return. I'm go to re-quote you before I give my response:</em></em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em><em>[QUOTE="Astrophile]</em>What seems to me to be the fatal flaw in Christianity is that Jesus, and all the New Testament authors, taught that the end of the world was coming, that Jesus would return to judge the world in the lifetime of his hearers (Matthew 16:28, Matthew 24:34, Mark 9:1, Mark 13:30, Luke 9:27, Luke 21:32, Revelation 22:20), and that after his return everything would be different. However, at least 1980 years have passed since Jesus's death and he has not returned. </em></p></blockquote><p><em></em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em><em>This was answered by Peter in his 2nd Epistle in which he actually prophesied that there would be those who would make the same kind of claims as you and others are making:</em></em></p><p><em><strong><em>2 Peter 3:3-7(KJV) </em></strong></em></p><p><em><em> 3 <strong>Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days <u>scoffers</u></strong>, walking after their own lusts, </em></em></p><p><em><span style="font-size: 12px"><strong>scoffers - G1703 </strong><em>ἐμπαίκτης empaiktēs</em> <em>emp-aheek-tace'</em></span></em></p><p><em><em><span style="font-size: 12px">From <a href="https://www.christianforums.com/qv://steplinkto0%200000010488" target="_blank">G1702</a>; a derider, that is, (by implication) a false teacher:—mocker, scoffer.</span></em></em></p><p><em>4 And </em><strong><em>saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.</em></strong><em> </em></p><p><em> 5 </em><u>For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water</u>: <em> </em></p><p><em>Speaking of a catastrophic flood in the past.</em></p><p><em> 6 </em><u>Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished</u>:<em> </em></p><p><em> 7 </em><u><em>B</em>ut the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.</u><em> </em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em><em>This is exactly what we see today, which remarkably Peter spoke of almost 2000 years ago. Now we're not done. The question is why? Why is God waiting so long to do what He says He will inevitably do? Some of you might be rather surprised. Peter tells us in the same context in which we are looking: First he tells us about the way that God views time (something most might already be aware of with this next verse):</em></em></p><p><strong><em><em>2 Peter 3:8(KJV) </em></em></strong>But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.<em> </em></p><p><em><em>What most might not be familiar with which comes in the very next verse:</em></em></p><p><em><strong>2 Peter 3:9-10(KJV) </strong></em></p><p><em>9 The Lord is not <u>slack</u> concerning his promise, as some men count <u>slackness</u>; but is <strong><u>longsuffering</u></strong> to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to <u>repentance</u>. </em></p><p><em><span style="font-size: 12px"><strong>slack - G1019 </strong>βραδύνω bradunō <em>brad-oo'-no</em></span></em></p><p><em><span style="font-size: 12px">From <a href="https://www.christianforums.com/qv://steplinkto0%200000009800" target="_blank">G1021</a>; to <em>delay:—be slack, tarry.</em></span></em></p><p><em><span style="font-size: 12px"><strong><em>slackness - G1022 βραδύτης bradutēs</em> <em>brad-oo'-tace</em></strong></span></em></p><p><em><em><span style="font-size: 12px">From <a href="https://www.christianforums.com/qv://steplinkto0%200000009800" target="_blank">G1021</a>; tardiness:—slackness.</span></em></em></p><p><em><span style="font-size: 12px"><em>:</em>—be slack, tarry.</span></em></p><p><em><span style="font-size: 12px"><strong>longsuffering - G3114 </strong>μακροθυμέω makrothumeō <em>mak-roth-oo-meh'-o</em></span></em></p><p><em><span style="font-size: 12px">From the same as <a href="https://www.christianforums.com/qv://steplinkto0%200000011917" target="_blank">G3116</a>; to <em>be</em> <em>long</em> <em>spirited</em>, that is, (objectively) <em>forbearing</em> or (subjectively) <em>patient:</em>—bear (suffer) long, be longsuffering, have (long) patience, be patient, patiently endure.</span></em></p><p><em><span style="font-size: 12px"><strong>repentance - G3341 </strong>μετάνοια metanoia <em>met-an'-oy-ah</em></span></em></p><p><em><span style="font-size: 12px">From <a href="https://www.christianforums.com/qv://steplinkto0%200000012043" target="_blank">G3340</a>; (subjectively) <em>compunction</em> (for guilt, including <em>reformation</em>); by implication <em>reversal</em> (of [another’s] decision):—repentance.</span></em></p><p><em>10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. </em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em><em>The reason why it has not yet happened thus far is because God is giving men (such as yourself) as much of a chance that He can to turn things around, since it is in fact not His desire that anyone should perish (not even you), otherwise he would have done it a long time ago, considering where man has taken himself up to this point with his disbelief. </em></em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em><em>4) I suppose that I should address one last point that you also brought up. As far as government is concerned, there is no earthly government that believers are to structure themselves after. It is the government of God that the original church was modeled after. We are told that our politics should be in heaven, and not on this earth (of course many Christians do not necessarily abide by this) although we are to respect and abide by our government's laws under the nation that we live in. </em></em></p><p><em><em></em></em></p><p><em><em>Recall that when Jesus was asked by the disciples if they were to pay taxes what Jesus did/said: He asked Peter to give him a coin. The coin was the Roman coinage at the time which had a picture of Caesar on it. He asked them whose picture was on the coin that He was given. The disciples said, Caesar and His response was "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and render what is God's unto God"? Mark 12:13-17, Matthew 22:18-22, Unlike some of the false claims made against Him (back then and even today) Jesus never instructed His followers to revolt against the government and told them, (as did Paul) that they were to abide by the existing laws of the land. Also see Romans 13:1.</em></em></p><p><em><em></em></em></p><p><em></em></p><p>[/QUOTE]</p>
[QUOTE="2tim_215, post: 71879999, member: 401929"] [I] [I]Point by point: 1) The original context of this particular subject is the many books written about a historical man on top of the Bible which is about 4.5B copies estimated (coincidentally the same as the projected number for the Earth’s age according to Evos) and who (or what) or what can compare to that. The first comparisons were Mao Pse Tung's quote which come in 2nd compared to Jesus and the Bible addition to JK Rowland who I believe is 3rd. [/I] [I]My response was that JK's books were written solely for entertainment (which I'm sure there were some messages in there as well) and Mao's works (~4B) were written by an evil dictator who most likely forced his citizens to read his propagandistic materials in the largest populated country in the world. When you look at Jesus and what his teaching consisted of, any else written by man throughout his entire history pales in comparison. And you want to say that Shakespeare has contributed more to our society than Jesus has? Has Mao done the same? Or has JK Rowland, who BTW is about as supernatural as one can get?[/I] [I]Now most of Shakespeare's works are estimated to be between 2 to 4 Billion in total as far as # circulated. I said 37 plays (you say 38, so I was off by one) which were mostly fiction and the ones that weren't were all about men (all various Kings according to scholars) and 154 fourteen-line poems or sonnets unlike the Bible and Jesus Christ, which were all written about one man mainly and about real persons. The Bible had writings about many "real" men, in addition to Jesus, Mao’s writings (I'm sure) were just about Mao, and JK's were pure fantasy/fiction (although quite entertaining). [/I] [I]And unlike Mao, who did terrible things to humanity while ruling China under his communist regime with an iron fist, I know of very few people (with all their interpretations) who can claim that Jesus was an evil person and didn't teach great lessons for all humankind. Also, I don't know of too many people who can claim that Mao was some great person who they'd want to model their sons after.[/I] [I]2) As for what you call a "fatal flaw", Let's take a look at what you're referring to and see if that is true:[/I] [B][I]Luke 21:29-36(KJV) [/I][/B][I] 29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; 30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. 31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. 32 [B]Verily I say unto you, This [U]generation[/U] shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. [/B] 33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. [/I] [I]generation [/I][B]G1074 [/B]γενεά genea [I]ghen-eh-ah'[/I][/I] [SIZE=3]From (a presumed derivative of) [URL='https://www.christianforums.com/qv://steplinkto0%200000009864']G1085[/URL]; a generation; by implication [U]an age[/U] (the period or the persons):—age, generation, [U]nation[/U], time.[/SIZE] [I] [I]There's more than one way to interpret this. Of course, non-believers will always try to find ways to either make it seem to be a contradiction or illogical for obvious reasons. However, since we (as believers) who believe in God's undeniable truth, will always look first for a realistic and rational explanation before jumping to an illogical conclusion as we also believe that God and the Bible are both logical if interpreted properly. The explanation here (I believe) is the Greek definition of the word "genea" or "generation" which can be "age" or even meant to be "nation" which in this particular instance would be Jews since that is who Jesus was speaking to, all Jews. If you consider it in the context in which it was given then age would make the most sense. Why? Well for one thing, look at the rest of the verse for further context (which so many who misinterpret or misuse scripture tend to "not do"). Jesus says, "until all be fulfilled". What does that mean? Well, that's a qualifier. Again, trying to understand the context (which we need for a proper understanding) look at the next verse, 33. "heaven and Earth shall pass away (future event, since we are still here, would you agree?) which is the qualifier to this statement believe. So rephrasing, The Jewish Nation shall remain on this earth until all prophecy is fulfilled which means that there's more to come (prophetically) and as long as there are certain events that have not yet been fulfilled, the Nation Israel (and they being the generation to which Jesus is referring) will still be present on this earth. [/I] [I]Now as far as those who were alive at the time when Jesus spoke this, who would be eligible to be those who would see would see Him in His glory while still alive, let's try and see how this played out. First, keep in mind that the original scriptures were not put together the way our Bibles are structured today with Chapters and verses. This was something instituted by man in order to make it easier to reference certain portions that you like to get at more quickly. In the original, there were NO chapters and verses and aside from the overall book (which went by the writer or his scribes name) all verses were run together. As for the separating of the chapters, these too were decided by men who put the entire Bible together based on their own judgment for the most part. Now, taking this into consideration, if we look at the verses in question, we will see that these all ended the chapter in which they were quoted and that being the case, whatever followed would have to be considered as part of the same context. So as a result, if we look to the next Chapter in our Bibles, we find that just 6 days later that this is when Jesus goes to the Mount of Transfiguration, and who accompanies Him? Peter, James and John, 3 of the disciples who happened to be with Him when He make this statement that there would see Him in His glorious state. So, ending with Matthew 6:18 we now go to Matthew 17:1: [B]Matthew 16:27-28(KJV) [/B] 27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. [/I] [I]The above is referencing a future event, but not the one regarding the next verse. However, we see what’s coming next in the next verse:[/I] [I]28 Verily I say unto you, [B]There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom[/B].[/I] [I]S what is He referring to? See starting in Matthew 17: [B]Matthew 17:1-13(KJV) [/B] 1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, 2 And was [U]transfigured[/U] before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. 3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. 4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. 5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. 6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid. 7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid. 8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only. 9 [B]And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead. [/B] 10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come? 11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. 12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. 13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist. [/I] [I]The word transfigure, is the Greek word metamorphoō[/I] [I]where we get our English word[/I] [I]metamorphose from. [/I] [SIZE=3][B][I]transfigured - G3339 [/I][/B][I] μεταμορφόω metamorphoō met-am-or-fo'-o[/I][/SIZE] [I][SIZE=3]From [URL='https://www.christianforums.com/qv://steplinkto0%200000012029']G3326[/URL] and [URL='https://www.christianforums.com/qv://steplinkto0%200000012149']G3445[/URL]; to transform (literally or figuratively “metamorphose”):—change, transfigure, transform[/SIZE].[/I] Notice that in chapter 17, Jesus tells us that this was a vision, which was symbolic (visions are symbolic since they're not real, which is how you can tell to not take it as being literal, which makes sense) and didn't actually happen yet (although it will eventually happen, when Jesus makes His return visit and then , in fact will be literal) and that basically this is just a glimpse of what's to come, which is given to 3 of His most prominent disciples. So, I’m afraid that you have this wrong. There’s no “fatal flaw” here if you interpret it properly. [I]3) Now there's one more thing that I'd like to address, relating to your suggestions and that is with regards Jesus return. I'm go to re-quote you before I give my response:[/I] [I][QUOTE="Astrophile][/I]What seems to me to be the fatal flaw in Christianity is that Jesus, and all the New Testament authors, taught that the end of the world was coming, that Jesus would return to judge the world in the lifetime of his hearers (Matthew 16:28, Matthew 24:34, Mark 9:1, Mark 13:30, Luke 9:27, Luke 21:32, Revelation 22:20), and that after his return everything would be different. However, at least 1980 years have passed since Jesus's death and he has not returned.[I] [/quote][/I] [I]This was answered by Peter in his 2nd Epistle in which he actually prophesied that there would be those who would make the same kind of claims as you and others are making:[/I] [B][I]2 Peter 3:3-7(KJV) [/I][/B] [I] 3 [B]Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days [U]scoffers[/U][/B], walking after their own lusts, [/I] [SIZE=3][B]scoffers - G1703 [/B][I]ἐμπαίκτης empaiktēs[/I] [I]emp-aheek-tace'[/I][/SIZE] [I][SIZE=3]From [URL='https://www.christianforums.com/qv://steplinkto0%200000010488']G1702[/URL]; a derider, that is, (by implication) a false teacher:—mocker, scoffer.[/SIZE][/I] 4 And [/I][B][I]saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.[/I][/B][I] [/I] [I] 5 [/I][U]For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water[/U]: [I][I] [/I] Speaking of a catastrophic flood in the past.[/I] [I] 6 [/I][U]Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished[/U]:[I] [/I] [I] 7 [/I][U][I]B[/I]ut the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.[/U][I] [I]This is exactly what we see today, which remarkably Peter spoke of almost 2000 years ago. Now we're not done. The question is why? Why is God waiting so long to do what He says He will inevitably do? Some of you might be rather surprised. Peter tells us in the same context in which we are looking: First he tells us about the way that God views time (something most might already be aware of with this next verse):[/I][/I] [B][I][I]2 Peter 3:8(KJV) [/I][/I][/B]But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.[I] [I]What most might not be familiar with which comes in the very next verse:[/I] [B]2 Peter 3:9-10(KJV) [/B] 9 The Lord is not [U]slack[/U] concerning his promise, as some men count [U]slackness[/U]; but is [B][U]longsuffering[/U][/B] to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to [U]repentance[/U]. [SIZE=3][B]slack - G1019 [/B]βραδύνω bradunō [I]brad-oo'-no[/I] From [URL='https://www.christianforums.com/qv://steplinkto0%200000009800']G1021[/URL]; to [I]delay:—be slack, tarry.[/I] [B][I]slackness - G1022 βραδύτης bradutēs[/I] [I]brad-oo'-tace[/I][/B][/SIZE] [I][SIZE=3]From [URL='https://www.christianforums.com/qv://steplinkto0%200000009800']G1021[/URL]; tardiness:—slackness.[/SIZE][/I] [SIZE=3][I]:[/I]—be slack, tarry. [B]longsuffering - G3114 [/B]μακροθυμέω makrothumeō [I]mak-roth-oo-meh'-o[/I] From the same as [URL='https://www.christianforums.com/qv://steplinkto0%200000011917']G3116[/URL]; to [I]be[/I] [I]long[/I] [I]spirited[/I], that is, (objectively) [I]forbearing[/I] or (subjectively) [I]patient:[/I]—bear (suffer) long, be longsuffering, have (long) patience, be patient, patiently endure. [B]repentance - G3341 [/B]μετάνοια metanoia [I]met-an'-oy-ah[/I] From [URL='https://www.christianforums.com/qv://steplinkto0%200000012043']G3340[/URL]; (subjectively) [I]compunction[/I] (for guilt, including [I]reformation[/I]); by implication [I]reversal[/I] (of [another’s] decision):—repentance.[/SIZE] 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. [I]The reason why it has not yet happened thus far is because God is giving men (such as yourself) as much of a chance that He can to turn things around, since it is in fact not His desire that anyone should perish (not even you), otherwise he would have done it a long time ago, considering where man has taken himself up to this point with his disbelief. [/I] [I]4) I suppose that I should address one last point that you also brought up. As far as government is concerned, there is no earthly government that believers are to structure themselves after. It is the government of God that the original church was modeled after. We are told that our politics should be in heaven, and not on this earth (of course many Christians do not necessarily abide by this) although we are to respect and abide by our government's laws under the nation that we live in. Recall that when Jesus was asked by the disciples if they were to pay taxes what Jesus did/said: He asked Peter to give him a coin. The coin was the Roman coinage at the time which had a picture of Caesar on it. He asked them whose picture was on the coin that He was given. The disciples said, Caesar and His response was "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and render what is God's unto God"? Mark 12:13-17, Matthew 22:18-22, Unlike some of the false claims made against Him (back then and even today) Jesus never instructed His followers to revolt against the government and told them, (as did Paul) that they were to abide by the existing laws of the land. Also see Romans 13:1. [/I] [/I] [/QUOTE]
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