Papal Infallibility (Pope Innerancy). Can the Pope ever be in the wrong?

[Jonathan Mathews]

This question is mainly to Catholics but anyone can answer with Scripture.

Do you believe in "papal infallibility"? That is to say, can the Pope ever sin or be in sin? Can he ever be wrong in His official teaching, views, actions, or beliefs? Since you believe Peter was the first Pope of the Church, do you know of a case in Scripture where this earthly leader of the universal church was in the wrong and had to be rebuked/corrected by someone else on earth?

Scriptures to read:
Galatians 2:11-21

 

[tampasteve]

What you describe is not "papal infallibility". Papal infallibility, which I do not believe in, is under very specific circumstances, not every opinion, action or utterance of the Pope. Yes, there have been terrible popes, there have also been wonderful pious popes.

 

[Albion]

This question is mainly to Catholics but anyone can answer with Scripture.

Do you believe in "papal infallibility"? That is to say, can the Pope ever sin or be in sin?

That's not what the term "papal infallibility" refers to.

 

[Davidnic]

The Pope can sin. All have. Some spectacularly.

We don't believe in papal impeccability.

And even on teaching, if the Pope taught something like say the Trinity is wrong...he could not teach that infallibly because it goes against the Deposit of Faith. There is actually a method for official correction of a Pope by the other Bishops.

There are a lot more limits on infallibility than people understand. A lot of it rests on clarification of things already in the Deposit of Faith.

Even Catholics often misunderstand the different levels of dogma, and what and how something can be declared infallible.

 

[Davidnic]

Like take, for instance, women's ordination. Saint Pope John Paul II declared using arguably infallible language, that the Pope lacks the authority to change that. What he did was clarify what was already in the deposit of faith.

So let's say tomorrow the Pope decided to try to infallibly declare against what has been held for 2,000 years. He could not.

 

[TuxAme]

You're describing the notion of "papal impeccability" (which isn't believed), not papal infallibility.

 

[Albion]

So let's say tomorrow the Pope decided to try to infallibly declare against what has been held for 2,000 years. He could not.

Theory-wise, you are correct. However, in that case you referred to--the declaration of Papal Infallibility--it absolutely went against what had been held true for most of the previous 2000 years.

 

[eleos1954]

This question is mainly to Catholics but anyone can answer with Scripture.

Do you believe in "papal infallibility"? That is to say, can the Pope ever sin or be in sin? Can he ever be wrong in His official teaching, views, actions, or beliefs? Since you believe Peter was the first Pope of the Church, do you know of a case in Scripture where this earthly leader of the universal church was in the wrong and had to be rebuked/corrected by someone else on earth?

Scriptures to read:
Galatians 2:11-21

Matthew 16:23

 

[Mountainmike]

It is a shame people do not research a matter before contest a doctrine.
You cannot be more wrong.

All Christians believe in infallibiilty in proper context. You rely on God acting through the authors of gospels in order to create an infallible text. So God acting through man is not in dispute. The only question therefore is when and who.

Nor is the scriptural context for the power to declare infallibly on matters of law and doctrine which is the meaning of "bind in heaven" as the jews understood it.


That power was given separately to Peter alone Mat 16:19 , and elsewhere to apostles jointly Mat 18:18 . The second of those is the reason you can trust decisions of council and so the new testament and the creed, the successors of apostles acting jointly.

The first is the rare occasion when the pope speaks ex cathedra to proclaim what has always been true, and to settle a dispute. Which was preceded by the chair of Moses.

It is also the reason the church has authority. "the foundation of truth is the church" says scripture.

This question is mainly to Catholics but anyone can answer with Scripture.

Do you believe in "papal infallibility"? That is to say, can the Pope ever sin or be in sin? Can he ever be wrong in His official teaching, views, actions, or beliefs? Since you believe Peter was the first Pope of the Church, do you know of a case in Scripture where this earthly leader of the universal church was in the wrong and had to be rebuked/corrected by someone else on earth?

Scriptures to read:
Galatians 2:11-21

 

[TuxAme]

Matthew 16:23

Matthew 16:18 (not that the OP accurately describes papal infallibility in the first place).

 

[eleos1954]

Matthew 16:18 (not that the OP accurately describes papal infallibility in the first place).

Didn't say it did ;o)

 

[ripple the car]

Basically, the Pope is infallible when he declares as True and binding something which the Church has always taught, but perhaps which all Catholic Christians have not always embraced, or understood in the same way. A final statement on such a theological matter from the Pope would be infallible. Like the definition of the Immaculate Conception.

In his personal life, a Pope can definitely sin. And they do. Popes, too, make use of confession, as they are not humanly perfect. So Popes do sin. But being sinless is not what Papal Infallibility is about.

 

[Erik Nelson]

Matthew 16:23

John 21:17

 

[ripple the car]

John 21:17

Yep. This is one of the verses which drives home for me that there was truly something special about Peter.

 

[Erik Nelson]

It is a shame people do not research a matter before contest a doctrine.
You cannot be more wrong.

All Christians believe in infallibiilty in proper context. You rely on God acting through the authors of gospels in order to create an infallible text. So God acting through man is not in dispute.

Nor is the scriptural context for the power to declare infallibly on matters of law and doctrine which is the meaning of "bind in heaven" as the jews understood it.


That power was given separately to Peter alone Mat 16:19 , and elsewhere to apostles jointly Mat 18:18 . The second of those is the reason you can trust decisions of council and so the new testament and the creed, the successors of apostles acting jointly.

The first is the rare occasion when the pope speaks ex cathedra to proclaim what has always been true, and to settle a dispute. Which was preceded by the chair of Moses.

It is also the reason the church has authority. "the foundation of truth is the church" says scripture.

think that's the heart of the matter, HS guides Body of Christ into all truth (John 16:13), only issue is where resides the "center of mass" of such Right Guidance ?

 

[Jonathan Mathews]

"the foundation of truth is the church" says scripture.

Where do the scriptures say this? Do you mean foundation as in the bottom supporting layer of a building, or foundation as in an "organization"? Because the Word says "On this Rock I will build my Church", so Christ, the Rock, is the Truth and the Truth of Christ is the foundation of the Church.

 

[ripple the car]

Where do the scriptures say this? Do you mean foundation as in the bottom supporting layer of a building, or foundation as in an "organization"? Because the Word says "On this Rock I will build my Church", so Christ, the Rock, is the Truth and the Truth of Christ is the foundation of the Church.

The Rock in this particular verse was Peter, whose name literally means "Rock".

Elsewhere in Scripture Christ is also called the Rock. So Christ essentially named Simon bar Jonah after Himself, and it is to Peter whom Christ refers in this verse. Not Himself.

 

[Concord1968]

Where do the scriptures say this? Do you mean foundation as in the bottom supporting layer of a building, or foundation as in an "organization"? Because the Word says "On this Rock I will build my Church", so Christ, the Rock, is the Truth and the Truth of Christ is the foundation of the Church.

1 Timothy 3:15: "But if I should be delayed, I have written so that you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth."

 

[Jonathan Mathews]

Thanks to everyone who has helped me understand the differences between "infallibility" and "impeccability". I see no scripture that shows Peter's teaching was in error, but I read where his behavior was. But the Scriptures do say He was leading men astray from the Truth of the Gospel. He was in sin and leading men to sin. God sent Paul, a "lesser" Apostle to rebuke/correct him and he repented. Any Pope who places himself above this kind of mutual accountability of the Saints is dangerous. I don't have any accusations against any Pope that I am aware of. It's just a word of warning because even a Pope can lead men astray from the Truth of Gospel of Christ.

 

[Mountainmike]

I refer to 1 tim 15-16.
We know from OT the Household of God is the physical church. Which is the "pillar and foundation of truth"
It is also why you urged to take disputes to the church mat 18:15

To understand it you need to go back to the first writings of those taught by the apostles, such as Justin Martyr, Polycarp, Ignatius (disciples of John) who are vociferous in saying that the appointed bishops not only to be respected as the custodians of truth (which is by the way the meaning of tradition as Paul used it, paradosis, handing down) but also only they can perform valid sacraments or those they appoint. So the succession is really important

It is also why the bible says "how can they teach if they are not sent?".

So the church was built on succession, acting to out heresy and later determine what is and what is not true scripture. So that is the foundation of the church and truth.

The early church is an eyeopener for most the first time they study it.

Where do the scriptures say this? Do you mean foundation as in the bottom supporting layer of a building, or foundation as in an "organization"? Because the Word says "On this Rock I will build my Church", so Christ, the Rock, is the Truth and the Truth of Christ is the foundation of the Church.