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Featured Papal Infallibility (Pope Innerancy). Can the Pope ever be in the wrong?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Jonathan Mathews, Apr 24, 2019.

  1. tz620q

    tz620q Regular Member Supporter

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    I know we like to have historical proof of things; but we can also make logical inferences from the small proof we do have. In this case, we see in Acts that Peter was the leader of the Christians in Jerusalem. He then leaves (flees?) and mentions James as the person to tell of his leaving. That seems strange considering that there were members of the twelve still left in Jerusalem who would be the logical next leader. To me this infers that either James was already recognized as the person in the line of succession in Jerusalem or that Peter was conferring this on him at this moment. If it is the second then the reason could be that the Apostles recognized that to stay in Jerusalem as known disciples of Christ would lead to their arrest. So they left and appointed someone unknown as a Christian to the Jews as the next leader. I know this is all inference; but it does at least explain the odd transition from Peter to James.
     
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  2. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    James, brother of Jesus - Wikipedia
     
  3. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    The pope does not believe in salvation through faith in Christ alone but teaches the salvation comes through observing the mass, worship of Mary, and obedience to the church. He does not believe the Scripture that says that those who live by works are lost, but overrules Scripture where it is contrary to church tradition. Therefore according to Protestant reformed belief, he is lost, and therefore fallible.
     
  4. tz620q

    tz620q Regular Member Supporter

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    Is that an infallible statement of condemnation on the Pope? If not, then whose claim is stronger, the office that has existed since the Church was formed or the late comers that sought to overthrow that office?
     
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  5. worshipjunkie

    worshipjunkie Active Member

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    This assumes that the current view of papal infallibility traces back to the early Church, which is something that more then Protestants deny. It also assumes the office dates back to the early church, which is something that has not been proven.

    In addition to the above, he does not believe that faith in Jesus is necessary for salvation. Instead He believes the universal redemption theory another universalist (John Paul II) did so much to propagate. "“On the contrary, the Lord has created us in His image and likeness, and has given us this commandment in our heart: Do good and do not do evil. The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, what about the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us first class children of God! We are created children in the likeness of God and the Blood of Christ has redeemed us all! And we all have a duty to do good. And this commandment for everyone to do good, I think, is a beautiful path towards peace. If we, with everyone doing his own part; if we do good to others, if we meet there, doing good, and we go slowly, gently, little by little, we will make that culture of meeting: we need that so much. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good! We shall meet there.” (Pope Francis: "The Lord Has Redeemed All of Us...Even Atheists!"). This is simply one of dozens of quotes. I think the only unforgivable sin for Pope Francis is preferring the Latin Mass.
     
  6. prodromos

    prodromos Senior Veteran Supporter

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  7. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    All I said was what the pope believes, and what Reformed Evangelicals believe about him. Nothing more.
     
  8. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    In actual fact, the title "pope" attached to the bishop of Rome was conferred around the 40th Century AD when Constantine made Christianity the state religion of the Empire.

    Another interesting fact. There was a pope called Honorius who was anathematized by the church 40 years after his death. That would have punched a big hole in the idea of Apostolic succession, and the ordination of all the bishops and priests by him would have been null and void. So, as part of the Apostolic succession, he should have laid hands on and commissioned the next pope, because that was how Apostolic succession is done. So, it may very well be, that the next pope and all the popes after him would not have been the result of Apostolic succession at all.

    I guess the present idea of Apostolic succession of popes is one of those "leaps" of existential faith that does not have to be supported by evidence or reason.
     
  9. prodromos

    prodromos Senior Veteran Supporter

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    How do we see that he is THE leader and not simply A leader? There is a lot more than inference going on to reach the former conclusion.
    Nothing about "leaving" in the message. The only thing that can be inferred from that verse is to tell James of his 'escape' from prison. Verse 5 tells of "earnest prayer to God by the Church on Peter's behalf", and everything we know about James tells us he was one who prayed earnestly to God. Why wouldn't Peter want James to know his prayers had been heard?
    What is strange is that you would assume any of the twelve would be leading the Church in Jerusalem when the Apostles were making a habit of finding suitable candidates to oversee the Church wherever they went to preach the Gospel. In the end of Matthew's Gospel, Christ tells the Apostles to "make disciples of all nations", not to oversee the Church in any particular location.
    There is no odd transition to explain.
     
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  10. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    From my reading of the text, Peter left town because Herod was after his hide and if Peter remained, he would have been recaptured and put to the sword. His ministry was not over, and the prophetic word that Jesus gave him was that he would be apprehended and taken somewhere he didn't want to go when he grew old. So, in order for that prophetic word to be fulfilled, the Holy Spirit led him to somewhere out of the reach of Herod, probably to Joppa where he is next seen preaching to Cornelius' household.

    You are correct that the Apostles were church planters not overseers. Their role was to plant churches and appoint elders to oversee them. Paul founded the Corinthian church, but went on his way, leaving Apollos to continue the work there.
     
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  11. Just_a_Christian

    Just_a_Christian Active Member

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    Very well stated!! In fact, Timothy was told to ordain elders in every church. BTW, both words bishop and elder were used interchangeably in the NT. Paul does so in the span of just 2 or 3 verses.
    In Him
     
  12. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Jerome stated James the Just, brother of the Lord, was installed as Bishop of Jerusalem by the "Pillar Apostles" (Peter, James & John Zebedee) after the Ascension, and presided there 30 years until the 7th year of Nero [= October 60 to October 61 AD], being martyred at age 96

    Implies Crucifixion was 30-31 AD, and supports James being a son of Joseph by a previous marriage, James having been born c.37 BC, about when Herod the Great was made king

    CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: St. Joseph

    When forty years of age, Joseph married a woman called Melcha or Escha by some, Salome by others; they lived forty-nine years together and had six children, two daughters and four sons, the youngest of whom was James (the Less, "the Lord's brother"). A year after his wife's death, as the priests announced through Judea that they wished to find in the tribe of Juda a respectable man to espouse Mary, then twelve to fourteen years of age. Joseph, who was at the time ninety years old, went up to Jerusalem among the candidates; a miracle manifested the choice God had made of Joseph, and two years later the Annunciation took place.​

    JC born = 5-3 BC
    Annunciation = 6-4 BC
    Betrothal to Mary = 8-6 BC
    1st wife sleeps = 9-7 BC
    Mary born = 22-18 BC = Herod began renovating temple of Jerusalem
    James born = 37 BC = 20th year of marriage
    Marriage to 1st wife = 58-56 BC
    Joseph born = 98-96 BC

    Church Tradition lines up sensibly, consistent with James et al being brothers by a previous wife, plausibly named Melcha / Escha
     
  13. Concord1968

    Concord1968 LCMS Lutheran

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    Hmmmm. Wasn't it already explained up thread that Constantine merely made Christianity legal, and that it was his GRANDSON that made it the state religion?
     
  14. Concord1968

    Concord1968 LCMS Lutheran

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    When in doubt blame Constantine :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
     
  15. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    I guess the Catholic Encylopedia would have to come up with that information to preserve the doctrine that Mary did not have any children after Jesus. In other words, she never had sex with Joseph and therefore remained a virgin.
     
  16. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That information has been preserved since the 1st-2nd centuries, 'tis ancient tradition

    To deny the obvious implication (which you state correctly), requires one to arbitrarily reject that ancient tradition

    what was held to be true from the 1st century, suddenly is tossed out ??
     
  17. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Heresies and false doctrines were rife in the early church and John wrote his gospel and letters to refute some of them.
     
  18. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    And there was One Church then (none of which denied the traditions regarding Joseph)

    Today there are 1000s of factious sects -- obviously even more heresies & false doctrines ?
     
  19. Just_a_Christian

    Just_a_Christian Active Member

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    Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
    2 Thessalonians 2:1-7
    It would be a wonderful thing if the falling away had never occurred; IF sound doctrine ONLY had been followed.
    In Him
     
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  20. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    COUNCIL OF NICAEA II (AD 787)
    "If anyone rejects all ecclesiastical tradition either written or not written...let him be anathema."

    Nicaea = Nike = Victory
    The above was declared at the second Council of Victory, as it happens
     
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