"Paid" choir?

[graceandpeace]

So I stumbled upon a conversation on social media about music in TEC. It was brought up that some churches have paid choirs. So, question:

- is the choir then still members of the church, or outsiders coming in to sing?

I am asking because the choir at the church I've been attending is VERY good. I really love to sing myself - I sang on the praise team at our last church & still recall my high school days of singing in a competitive choir. It's really important to me to be able to serve in the church choir... I just hope it is open to me?

I'm gonna ask this Sunday...

 

[Fireball1244]

About 95% of the choir in my church is members of the parish. But there are some vocal ranges that you really only can reach with professional-grade development. So our church pays for a couple of folks -- a tenor and a baritone, IIRC -- to take part on Sundays and at special services. These are professional church singers who actually work for the choirs of several local congregations. They are not members of our parish. Not sure if they're even Episcopalian -- but as we practice open communion, that's not really a barrier to them taking part in the whole service.

I imagine that arrangement is fairly common in churches that put a high priority on accurate music and singing.

 

[PaladinValer]

Cantors may be paid for their services. Choir directors are typically paid.

As for a "professional choir", there very well many be a few in TEC, but I don't know of any off the top of my head.

 

[mickey30981]

I don't care how bad my church choir sounds, I cant see paying anyone. Music is part of worship and if those singing in the choir aren't worshipping for the sake of worship they shouldn't be paid. Just my preference.

 

[Liberasit]

In England, there is a wide range of practice.

You can go from lay clerks, to scholars, to paid singers, to volunteers.

In my church, which is fairly typical, the organist will be paid for weddings and funerals, but not for Sunday services. We don't pay our choir director or worship leader, or any of the choir or worship group.

 

[MKJ]

Normally, where there are paid members, there are still a majority of members who are parish volunteers.

It may also be the case that the paid members are, or become, parish members as well.

In a really good choir, a more common barrier might be that there are not many openings, or that they require the ability to read music.

 

[MKJ]

I don't care how bad my church choir sounds, I cant see paying anyone. Music is part of worship and if those singing in the choir aren't worshipping for the sake of worship they shouldn't be paid. Just my preference.

Don't most Catholic parishes pay priests and cleaners and such? I have a cousin who is youth education director at a Catholic parish and I know she gets paid.

Why would musicians be different? Being a music director or organist or section leader requires expertise - people spend time and money to learn those skills.

The other thing is, it is those kinds of positions that in many cases allow people to build their expertise in the first place - many music students fund their education in part by singing in paid positions in choirs. And it is also in many cases where liturgical music comes from.

When you stop supporting professional musicians in the church, you soon find you don't have any, because no one can afford to take the time to learn the skills, or write the music.

 

[Liberasit]

Don't most Catholic parishes pay priests and cleaners and such? I have a cousin who is youth education director at a Catholic parish and I know she gets paid.

Why would musicians be different? Being a music director or organist or section leader requires expertise - people spend time and money to learn those skills.

The other thing is, it is those kinds of positions that in many cases allow people to build their expertise in the first place - many music students fund their education in part by singing in paid positions in choirs. And it is also in many cases where liturgical music comes from.

When you stop supporting professional musicians in the church, you soon find you don't have any, because no one can afford to take the time to learn the skills, or write the music.

It takes a vast crew to run a church. On a given Sunday, we might have an organist/choir of around 10 people, and a worship group of a similar size, both supported by a tech team. At the same time, we might have around 20 people leading children's work. Should choristers be paid, but other musicians and children's workers do it for free? What about all the other ministries? In our church we view time and talents alongside actual hard cash.

We do have a lot of paid positions in our church, but only because they prevent those people from other paid activities. None of our musicians rely on music for their sole income, apart from our choir director who is paid in full as a school music teacher.

 

[graceandpeace]

Thanks for your responses. I just hope I can serve, because if not that would be...well, disappointing because I've started to open up to this church & my family likes it. I've started calling it "my" church. I would be in a difficult spot to decide whether to find a church that would allow me to serve - hopefully not...

 

[Albion]

As has been said by others, yes, there may be paid non-members in that choir. Typically this happens only if the choir is exceptional, and then it's probably only a minority of the choir members who are not parishioners. It's more often the case that musicians, not singers, are paid.

But unless the church you have in mind is very large and in a big city--such as a cathedral might be--it's unlikely that it has a paid choir.

 

[graceandpeace]

Well, it is a large church (2 services, not sure how many attend Rite I early service?), not huge/mega though, but it is in an urban/city location. It is a historic church as well.

So...I don't know. I will find out.

Really, I normally prefer smaller congregations, so this has been challenging for me - but I just liked this church best. What really won me to this particular church besides the choir was actually the fact the whole service is printed out. I felt lost with constant book flipping in the other TECs I visited because it was new to me. I might be fine now. But, I digress...

I do like this church even if it is a little further of a drive for me than other options. So, we'll see.

 

[MKJ]

It takes a vast crew to run a church. On a given Sunday, we might have an organist/choir of around 10 people, and a worship group of a similar size, both supported by a tech team. At the same time, we might have around 20 people leading children's work. Should choristers be paid, but other musicians and children's workers do it for free? What about all the other ministries? In our church we view time and talents alongside actual hard cash.

We do have a lot of paid positions in our church, but only because they prevent those people from other paid activities. None of our musicians rely on music for their sole income, apart from our choir director who is paid in full as a school music teacher.

Sure, different parishes have different needs and different capabilities. In general it seems the most likely people to be paid either work more hours, or they have expertise. You might be pleased if the parish member who is a plumber offers to help out for free, but you wouldn't necessarily expect it.

We pay a few positions - the rector, choir director, and secretary/soup kitchen director, all of whom are full or almost full time, and the priest who does many of the hospital visits and choir section heads get a stipend - both are significant commitments and require some expertise. The sexton gets free rent - it is a job that works best for someone living on site, and it also involves a lot of general availability and odd hours.

 

[seeking.IAM]

In my church the vast majority of the choir are church members. I think we have three or four paid singers who are section leaders and serve as cantors and soloists. Our music program is liberally supported by restricted gifts from parishioners who value a strong music program. At special services we have our symphony's Chamber Brass sit in.

Did I say our choir rocks?

 

[John Shrewsbury]

Most of the choir masters in England are paid, but the choir tend to be voluntary and members of the church.

 

[Sean611]

Reading threads about all these awesome choirs makes me jealous. I belong to a small parish and we do not have a choir. The congregation sings the hymns and we do about as good a job as we can. However, the Hymnal isn't exactly the most congregation friendly hymnal to sing out of and many of the hymns take some skill to follow and sing well. I actually had my wife teach me some basic music reading and it has really helped.

For a few months we had a small choir of about 4-6 people, including myself. We had a music director that we met with once a week and we practiced for about an hour. Generally, we sang one song per Sunday. Once the music director moved, we have had trouble finding another one. That said, it was a great learning experience for all of us. However, having such a weak music program is one of the short falls of our parish, but we do what we can with what we have.

EDIT: My parish has an early service with Taize Chant and I have heard good things about it. It may be a good idea to see if they might be interested in doing a song or two for the later service.

 

[MKJ]

EDIT: My parish has an early service with Taize Chant and I have heard good things about it. It may be a good idea to see if they might be interested in doing a song or two for the later service.

Maybe they would be willing to teach some of the people from your little choir how to do it?

I used to be in a very small rural parish with no choir or organist or piano player or even anyone who could both carry a tune and had a reasonably strong voice. We used to attempt a hymn on special occasions, but sometimes it was more like a slow death.

Singing some of the propers can be a good way to start bringing in a little more music. Something like the Merbecke setting of the creed is pretty easy and since it is the same every week, people can become proficient.

 

[Sean611]

Maybe they would be willing to teach some of the people from your little choir how to do it?

That's a good idea, Taize tends to keep it simple.

I used to be in a very small rural parish with no choir or organist or piano player or even anyone who could both carry a tune and had a reasonably strong voice. We used to attempt a hymn on special occasions, but sometimes it was more like a slow death.

We are fortunate enough to have two excellent organists and one is a member of the parish. I know exactly what you mean about the slow death and having a hard time finding someone who can carry a tune. The Anglicans Hymnal is awesome, but it is not really congregation singing friendly. The Rector has an amazing voice and really helps to lead the rest of us.

Singing some of the propers can be a good way to start bringing in a little more music. Something like the Merbecke setting of the creed is pretty easy and since it is the same every week, people can become proficient.

Another good idea. I think that it might be helpful if some of the parish members learned the very basics of music reading. Just an hour of teaching would do wonders.